#1
I think Im going to relearn all my scales because I dont think I ever learned the right way. I basically have an idea and I want to know if anyone has any suggestions.

Im going to start off by charting down each 3 note per string pattern for all the modes. So one shape will be called Ionion/major, dorian the next so on. Ill make sure I have diagrams of each. Once all 7 are memorized Im going to kind of shape it all together by studying the layout of the guitar with highlighted notes from each key. So Ill get a full fret layout of all the notes in C highlighted and just run up and down/focus on specif notes ex play tonic and dominant only. Then G and D. I anticipate it will be around this point where all the modes will start to click because the shapes are all the same just shifted to different places of the neck. Ill also run through a lot of improv so I get a good understanding of what sounds good and such.

This is where I think I need help. When I approach pentatonic scales how should I learn them? Should I take the same approach where I kinda learn each mode (each position) then highlight or is there another way that has proven to be better?

**I'm in no rush, my only concern is that I can confidently play all the notes of any requested mode without having to think about it. From there Ill explore the actual musical benefit of knowing each scale.
#3
You would just be learning the scales wrong again with this approach. Modes aren't positions on the fretboard.

If you wish to use shapes, use the CAGED method.

Additionally learn the notes on the fretboard and how to create major and minor scales. This site www.musictheory.net for help.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#4
I know what modes are. What Im saying is that just like major and minor, each mode has a position on the fretboard where the first note of the pattern is the start off your mode. For example, C major starts on the 8th fret on E string obviously using the major pattern. Then I would start on 10th fret (D) and play the shape which ill call "dorian"
so on so on then at the end I would just practice by looking off the fretboard with each note from a key as explained above.


I still need more help guys, especially with learning penta and blues (I know the "Ionion' shape for each but I just need help learning it on the rest of the fretboard")
#5
Quote by phil-82
I know what modes are. What Im saying is that just like major and minor, each mode has a position on the fretboard where the first note of the pattern is the start off your mode. For example, C major starts on the 8th fret on E string obviously using the major pattern. Then I would start on 10th fret (D) and play the shape which ill call "dorian"
so on so on then at the end I would just practice by looking off the fretboard with each note from a key as explained above.


I still need more help guys, especially with learning penta and blues (I know the "Ionion' shape for each but I just need help learning it on the rest of the fretboard")


I'll say it again. Modes aren't positions on the fretboard. You DON'T know what modes are. You'll be learning the scales incorrectly, AGAIN.

Here is a basic idea of what the CAGED method looks like;

And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#6
....... Im not trying to insult you but I do know what modes are, please understand this. Modes is just a scale starting from a different point and it adds a different type of taste to the key. Ex. The key of C from D to D is dorian, E to E is phygrian so on... I also know the formula for each ex mixolydian is b7 dorian is b3 and b6... Im going to attempt to re-explain my idea.

Here it goes:

I'm going to chart all the different ways you can play C major on the guitar (3 notes per string). Because there are 7 different ways to start the scale, I will have 7 different charts. The chart that starts exactly on C(or the first note of the scale) will be called Ionion chart (just ignore it if you have to and call it position 1) The chart that starts on 5th note of the scale will be called mixolydian chart for obvious reasons. After I have all these charts down I will basically know all the modes for every scale. If I want to play in G Aeolian I simply locate the G on the 6th string and play my mixolydian shape. The problem is, I still need to expand my scale for a longer range so Im going to make a big chart with all the positions combined so I know how to connect the scales.

If you dont think this is a good idea and can prove to me why it wont be, feel free to do so. Like I said before I need help with Penta and blues scales.
#7
Quote by phil-82
....... Im not trying to insult you but I do know what modes are, please understand this. Modes is just a scale starting from a different point and it adds a different type of taste to the key. Ex. The key of C from D to D is dorian, E to E is phygrian so on... I also know the formula for each ex mixolydian is b7 dorian is b3 and b6... Im going to attempt to re-explain my idea.

Here it goes:

I'm going to chart all the different ways you can play C major on the guitar (3 notes per string). Because there are 7 different ways to start the scale, I will have 7 different charts. The chart that starts exactly on C(or the first note of the scale) will be called Ionion chart (just ignore it if you have to and call it position 1) The chart that starts on 5th note of the scale will be called mixolydian chart for obvious reasons. After I have all these charts down I will basically know all the modes for every scale. If I want to play in G Aeolian I simply locate the G on the 6th string and play my mixolydian shape. The problem is, I still need to expand my scale for a longer range so Im going to make a big chart with all the positions combined so I know how to connect the scales.

If you dont think this is a good idea and can prove to me why it wont be, feel free to do so. Like I said before I need help with Penta and blues scales.


Ok I give up.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#9
Quote by phil-82
Leave.


I have, but beware I'm a mod and being rude can have consequences. I was simply pointing out an obvious flaw in your method of learning.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#10
What Alan is saying, is this, what you are playing, in a certain pitch context, could be modal, however the way you are using them, is not modal, you can call them equivalent of a modal pitch collection, but how they are used - is what makes them modal, so when you call something modal that isn't being used that way, there is objection because theres already a lot of confusion.

When someone says I know modes, and proceeds to explain them from a Major scale...thats a dead giveaway that they don't understand what they are saying. Knowing the pitch equivalent of a series of notes, that in a limited aspect only can and does function as a mode, and calling that a mode in the context of playing major scales (and their modes) are two different things. The instances where that set of scales in music that you call modes, are ACTUALLY modes are slim to none.

Understanding that... is understanding modes. Anything you say or relate to the Major scale, no matter what you call them, is absolutely not modal, or modes. They are just more of the major scale starting on a different scale degree. Same scale, same function regardless. The sooner people realize that, the first steps to knowing what you are talking about are taken.

Dorian is not a b6, its a natural 6.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at May 6, 2011,
#11
Alan's right. Modes are not just a scale starting from a different point.

So, onto the main topic. I would strongly suggest learning where all the notes are on the fretboard. Then if you learn the notes in a scale you'll just be able to find them on the fretboard. Getting to know the circle of fifths will help with this. If you do want to learn shapes on the board, I'd go with the caged system, it can definitely help with mapping out the fretboard in your head.
#12
Quote by Sean0913
What Alan is saying, is this, what you are playing, in a certain pitch context, could be modal, however the way you are using them, is not modal, you can call them equivalent of a modal pitch collection, but how they are used - is what makes them modal, so when you call something modal that isn't being used that way, there is objection because theres already a lot of confusion.

When someone says I know modes, and proceeds to explain them from a Major scale...thats a dead giveaway that they don't understand what they are saying. Knowing the pitch equivalent of a series of notes, that in a limited aspect only can and does function as a mode, and calling that a mode in the context of playing major scales (and their modes) are two different things. The instances where that set of scales in music that you call modes, are ACTUALLY modes are slim to none.

Understanding that... is understanding modes. Anything you say or relate to the Major scale, no matter what you call them, is absolutely not modal, or modes. They are just more of the major scale starting on a different scale degree. Same scale, same function regardless. The sooner people realize that, the first steps to knowing what you are talking about are taken.

Dorian is not a b6, its a natural 6.

Best,

Sean


In regards to your first paragraph, If I interpreted what you wrote the right way, then I completely agree with you. Running from D to D in C major in no way shape or form makes it a dorian mode. (Mode being in the sense that its supposed to change the feel of what your playing) You have to understand that I never said I was playing the mode, I just named it that because it felt fitting.

Now I usually don't dumb it down to a point where I use that relation to the major scale and just starting on a different scale degree. What I usually do(and I even did when I told alan what I though modes were) is go by the formula pattern. For example, when playing in Bb dorian. I dont think of it by starting on the second not of Ab major, I think of it by b3 and 7b from Bb. Now if you still object with the way Im approaching this mentally please tell me. I dont know why but I just have a different approach to everything I do, sometimes its for the better, and this time, it might be for the worse.

Now Alan, if your reading this, Im sorry for misleading you by my elementary explanation. Im not just saying this becayse your a mod, but I know you guys have a lot more experience than me so I should just listen..... that being said even if I cant play them I still like to think I understand what a mode is which is, like i said before, a way to mix up your music and give it a different feel. Like mixolydian which makes it sound bluesy.

Remember Im looking for constructive criticize. Based on what Ive heard Im ready to scrap that idea. Lets start fresh?

I can play any major scale, but only using one pattern that I just move around the fret board to fit into the appropriate key. How can I maximize my range and learn how to use the neck when playing in a specific key.
#13
Quote by phil-82
Now Alan, if your reading this, Im sorry for misleading you by my elementary explanation. Im not just saying this becayse your a mod, but I know you guys have a lot more experience than me so I should just listen..... that being said even if I cant play them I still like to think I understand what a mode is which is, like i said before, a way to mix up your music and give it a different feel. Like mixolydian which makes it sound bluesy.

Remember Im looking for constructive criticize. Based on what Ive heard Im ready to scrap that idea. Lets start fresh?

I can play any major scale, but only using one pattern that I just move around the fret board to fit into the appropriate key. How can I maximize my range and learn how to use the neck when playing in a specific key.


Yeah let's start afresh.

The problem with associating those mode names to patterns is that it can get very confusing when trying to explain yourself. I can see why you may use those names, but it gets taken to extremes, especially on this forum. A lot of people on this forum really do think that playing from D to D in the key of C major is playing the dorian mode. When you say "mixolydian" I don't know whether you are talking about a shape on the fretboard, the mixolydian mode, or a major scale with a flattened 7th. I jumped to my conclusion a bit too quickly it seems if you recognise that what you are doing is simply figuring out the major scale.

In terms of patterns joining together, the most common way really is the CAGED method that I put up above, which have the same patterns that you were probably looking at, for example the "C" pattern is most likely what you would call phrygian. What you are currently calling the "major scale pattern" would most likely be the "E" shape. These patterns link together to cover the entire fretboard.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#14
Everything there makes sense except one thing. Im having trouble understanding why theres only 5 shapes instead of 7?
#15
Quote by phil-82
Everything there makes sense except one thing. Im having trouble understanding why theres only 5 shapes instead of 7?


Probably because there's no need to. They're not meant to be an explanation of modes, just a diagram of the fretboard. Therefore it would be unnecessary to have separate patterns for "locrian" and "major" as they'd pretty much be replicating the E shape.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#16
So what are modes so I have an explanation. Is Dorian and Phyrgian not minor scales and Lydian Mixolydian not major scales? I am just trying to enhance my theory being my class spent all of 45 minutes talking about them and that's all. I thought I had a good understanding of them but now I am questioning myself.
#17
Ok, TS. Forget all about "modes" and "patterns" for now. In order to really learn a scale, learning "modes" or "patterns" alone is NOT going to get you there.

What you need to do is really LEARN the scale. Learn the intervallic relationships. Learn the notes.

Shapes can be nice, but ONLY once you understand what the notes are and how they work together.

I don't mean to question your understanding of scales, but I'm just saying that you don't need a pattern in order to play the C major scale starting and ending on D. You should just think "2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2" or "D E F G A B C D." You shouldn't think "D dorian" or "1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7." The dorian intervals can be helpful to realize when you're thinking about tensions over a Dm chord, but beyond that you're misleading yourself by bringing the word dorian or modes into the equation.

Quote by BrokenSymphony
So what are modes so I have an explanation. Is Dorian and Phyrgian not minor scales and Lydian Mixolydian not major scales? I am just trying to enhance my theory being my class spent all of 45 minutes talking about them and that's all. I thought I had a good understanding of them but now I am questioning myself.
Check out the link in my sig. If you need further applications of modes in ancient or modern contexts, just PM me.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at May 6, 2011,