#1
Hi guys, I'm making this thread to warn all of you about "Pay to Play" stuff. It just occurred to me that this may make a good article, but lets just see what people say from here.

"Pay to Play" is basically what it sounds like, rather than the venue paying you to play, you pay the venue to play, under the guise of "you're paying for promotion". It can come in many forms, but the most common ones are:

1. The "Sell the Ticket" Model

The promoters give you say 50 tickets, and you sell them at $10 each. At the point when they give you the tickets, you are in debt to them $500. If not all the tickets are sold, you will either have to pay them back or they won't let you play, or both.

It was recently pointed out to me that if there are say 3 bands playing, and 2 of the bands sell 100 tickets each, and the first band sells 10, the promoters will still make a lot of money ($210 x $10 = $2,100) but the first band will still have to pay that extra $400 because that's how it works. Interesting considering that the combination of bands were only expected to sell 150 tickets, and in reality 210 were sold.

2. The Straight Up Pay Model

Pretty easy. You just pay. The fee is usually very high, perhaps not as high as $500, but it's not uncommon to have to pay $100 for your band to perform for a short period of time.


And then there's hybrids, where a Battle of the Bands has a pay to play component of either of the top ones, and when the audience comes in, they tell the door person which band they've come to see. If your band has the most fans present, they win. No independent judges, no voting on the night. You came for them, therefore they win. It most likely is cheaper because you don't have to pay for the judges, and the bands will have more reason to sell more tickets. In effect, they become salesmen trying to match a target.

That's not very inspiring to the unknown band who are having their first gig. It goes against the idea that there are a number of bands, and they "battle". I'm sure if Justin Bieber played in one of these things he'd eventually be crowned champion of the world battle because he has the most fans before the competition ever started.

So how can we avoid these situations? Well lets take a large one like The Global Battle of the Bands http://gbob.com/

If this comes up in your area and you enquire you'll get this email:


Quote by Red Letter Event Management

Hi Alan;

Thanks for your expression of interest in GBOB 2011. Looking forward to a wicked Heat in Canberra at The Basement on Sat 14 May!

It is your chance to get on the World Stage...fast! Check out what was said about the last World Final: http://gbob.com/forum/topic/show?id=6278689%3ATopic%3A91795&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_topic

To lock your band into one of the slots, you need to pay your entry asap, by either of the following methods:

1.Make out a cheque or money order to A Red Letter Day (Event Management), and post it to 2/2 Rawson St, Newtown, NSW 2042, with your band's name clearly written on the back!

OR

2. Go to a bank to deposit the money, or use your computer to make a direct electronic transfer into: Account name: A Red Letter Day, BSB 062212, Account number 10327609, and make sure you ensure that your band's name will show up in our account statement. This means you need to enter your band name into the Receiving Account’s information box in the system.



It is $33 for each band member.

When we receive this you will be automatically recorded as an entrant this year, and we’ll get back to you with a worksheet specific for the night.

Good luck!

See you soonJ

Clare Burgess

General Manager

Red Letter Media Event Management

Mobile - 0412 609 109

www.aredletterday.com.au

www.myspace.com/burgessbookings

www.gbob.com

www.myspace.com/gbobaustralia

www.hotsource.com.au


Well there's some obvious questions which arise here.

Firstly, who is Red Letter Event Management? Basically they're an Australian "event management company" that puts on a whole heap of variety music nights, I expect they are also "pay-to-play" things, it's an easy way to get money. The principal is a bass player who had some very short stints in well known bands. They're most likely hired by the "global" organisers of the Battle of the Bands.

Secondly, did that say $33 a band member? That's massive! So to play a 20-30 minute set, in a 5 piece band, this will cost you $165. Amazing.

Thirdly, if there are a number of bands playing, lets say 6 with 4 members each. 24 people. 24 people x $33 = $792. Lets add some audience members in, and charge them $10 a pop. I'll be conservative and say that each band gets 10 fans through the door, 40 people. 40 x $10 = $1,192. A deal is worked out with the venue in relation to drink sales and perhaps a cut of the entry fee.

That's money made, and they didn't even have to promote anything. In fact, they usually don't promote these things, at all. The audience turnout is usually very low, and there's good reason for it. If there's already a built-in profit margin, what's the point of investing money into promotion? Not much.

And then, not noted on this initial email, is the fact that the people entering the door have to tell the door person which band they're coming to see. As noted above, the thing is rigged from the start.

Still I hear you cry, WAIT! The global battle of the bands is the largest band competition in the world! If you win, you get $100,000, fame and become rock stars! Well considering it's Global, they may have around 10,000 bands entering. 10,000 x 4 members x $33 = $1,320,000. That's just an estimate, but you can see where this is going, it's not nearly as much as they're getting just for bands to sign up in the first place.

Let's see how winning the competition affected the bands in the last couple of years anyway, my point may become moot.

2010: DUBTONIC KRU (Jamaica) http://www.dubtonickru.com/fr_dubmusic.cfm

4 gigs for the next year. Unsigned.



2009: RUSTIC (CHINA)
http://www.myspace.com/rusticpunk

No upcoming gigs. Facebook says they're about to finish their first album. Unsigned.



2008: FLOORS AND WALLS (ENGLAND)
http://www.myspace.com/floorsandwalls

No upcoming gigs. Uploaded some new tunes in 2009. Unsigned.



2007: BOYS IN A BAND (FAROE ISLANDS)
http://www.myspace.com/boysinaband

No upcoming gigs. Last login was last August. Unsigned.


2006: HEAVY MOJO (USA) These guys used to have a proper website but it's since been, err, taken over http://heavymojomusic.com/

According to their facebook they've played two gigs this year, having an album launch in July. They're currently signed to their own record label, Mojo Productions.


So there you have it. That's the glory that awaits if you actually win one of these competitions, and it really ain't that much. So why do they have these competitions if nobody gets a good deal out of them? Well the organisers do of course! Just bring in the cash, and disregard the bands at the end.

That's actually pretty depressing when you think about it. All these people telling you how great you are, and you go through all this build up, just to end up in the very place you started.

When you think about it, maybe that $165 that we forked out at the start isn't the greatest idea! You know, that's actually around 3 hours of studio time we're looking at, maybe we could skip this silly competition and start promoting the band ourselves.


That's my rant for the day folks. Feel free to discuss, critique and share stories about pay-to-play things you've encountered.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#2
I've read warnings about pay-to-play before, but this (despite its length) was probably the best and most well-written post about it that I've seen. Thank you lots for this!
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#4
Good post! My mates band learned the hard way with these schemes. The band that won the compitition is now broken up (funny how these things happen). So yeah just a waste of time and money these things.
#5
hmm so that's how BOTB works. Sounds really lame. I will not be entering any time soon
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#6
Quote by QuantumMechanix
hmm so that's how BOTB works. Sounds really lame. I will not be entering any time soon


Only battle of the bands with a pay-to-play component work this way. There are still many battle of the bands which have smaller entry fees ($0 - $10 per band) and are judged by an independent panel of judges, usually made of leaders in the local music scene.
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#7
I hate pay to play gigs. It's just down to lazy promoters who can't be arsed to do any actual promotion to sell tickets and instead dump their job on the bands to it do for them.

And the more bands that agree to play 'pay to play' gigs, the more the lazy promoters get away with it and make lots of easy money, and then other promoters see their example and do it themselves. It can actualy spread like a cancer in some places, leaving practicaly no local venues that will simply book a band based on reputation and fan base and pay an agreed upon fair wage for a fair night's work.
Basicaly, it can ruin what were once healthy local music scenes and remove the first rung on the ladder to a career in music for lots of musicians.

Sounds far fetched? I've seen it happen.

The way it's supposed to go is a venue hires a band to do a job for them, for which the band gets paid an agreed upon wage.
If a venue needed a plumber, would they tell the plumber that he needs to sell a bunch of tickets before he gets paid for doing his job?
Of course not, so why would they treat the band any differently than other people they have hired to do a job?

You pay for use of a rehearsal space, you pay for your transport to and from the gig, and hopefully you make back what it's cost you on the gig. To have to pay to play the gig just goes against all rational business practice.
So who falls for it? Who's stupid enough to pay a promoter to do his job for him?

Usualy the inexperienced. Gullible young kids with stars in their eyes and hearts full of hope, and this is what makes me really angry about the people who organise pay to play gigs, they are more often than not taking advantage of kids. That makes these exploiting bastards fair game for a bit of healthy public criticism as far as I'm concerned.

If you have anyone organising pay to play gigs in your area, be publicly outspoken about them, spread the word, start an anti-pay to play movement, have t-shirts and badges with 'Boycott Pay to Play!' or some similar slogan written on them and sell them at gigs and in local clothing a music shops. (by offering them a percentage of profit per item sold)
Contact your local press about it, it's a story of interest to them so they will probably be pretty likely to run a decent sized feature on your movement... which of course also helps to promote your band and any non-pay to play gigs you are playing/organising.


I actualy know a guy who seriously screwed over a pay to play promoter.
He ran his own venue and knew all four of the bands on the bill that a promoter for a different venue had hired for one gig. So he contacted all four bands and offered them all their own gigs for a fair wage, if they agreed to sabotage the gig they had arranged with the pay to play promoter.

The deal was, they were supposed to sell a minimum of so many tickets, bringing the money with them on the night to give to the promoter, if they didn't sell enough tickets, they had to pay a 'small fee' or they didn't get to play.

So, on the night of the gig, all four bands turned up, (without their musical equipment) and simply handed back ALL the tickets they'd been given to sell, told the guy they couldn't afford the 'small fee' and walked away, leaving him with no bands, no audience, and a venue hire bill.

My mate was true to his word, he gave each one of those bands their own gig and paid them all a fair wage, enabling them to run a free door so that all their friends that would've bought the pay to play tickets could see them for free, which filled up his venue, causing him to make a tidy profit from the bar takings.
Everyone was happy because they'd all been treated fairly, no one had been exploited and the local scene was improved because the pay to play promoter (who knew he'd been played like a fiddle) moved on and the venue he had hired later decided to simply regularly hire well known acts that were a guarranteed crowd draw and put more unknown local acts on as support slots. Which was a much healthier and more sustainable (because many of the support acts became popular and ended up playing their own headlining slots) way of doing business than the arrangement they had with the pay to play promoter.
#8
This was a good read. Thanks for that. I always wondered why some of my friends are trying so hard to sell tickets.
"For we are nothing without brotherhood and brotherhood is nothing without our brothers" -We Came As Romans
#9
Allow me to play Devil's advocate for a minute.

Let's say I'm a venue owner or promoter and I want to put together a show. Requiring bands to "pay-to-play" is an excellent way of weeding out lesser talent, or bands that are not committed to their craft. Presumably, a band is going to have to think long and hard, and perhaps be honest with themselves, about whether they have the chops to play this type of show or not.

It's a poor excuse...but one I'm sure at least one of them has used to justify their actions.

That said, I also despise "pay-to-play" gigs, with the following exceptions:

1. benefits/fundraisers - It is always great to see the kind of support that crowds and bands put toward these type of events. If someone is sick, or just wants to raise money/awareness for a good cause, GET INVOLVED! Everyone likes a band with a heart.

2. community festivals - There are two in my area, and we have always chosed to participate. Kinda along the same lines as point #1. It's great to see a community come out and rock and have a good time. It's almost like, for 1 day, people forget their problems and just enjoy life!

To me, whatever minimal entry fee is required is a small price to pay. Plus, if you have any Cds or merch, you can easily make back what it cost you. Consider it an investment...kinda like paying it forward.
#10
Quote by timlikeHim
Allow me to play Devil's advocate for a minute.

Let's say I'm a venue owner or promoter and I want to put together a show. Requiring bands to "pay-to-play" is an excellent way of weeding out lesser talent, or bands that are not committed to their craft. Presumably, a band is going to have to think long and hard, and perhaps be honest with themselves, about whether they have the chops to play this type of show or not.


Good bands expect, and do get paid to play gigs. Not the other way around. There's no use making a loss on a gig, especially one as badly promoted as a pay-to-play affair. As a result attending a pay-to-play affair usually consists of beginner bands, many are not tight, and almost none have a following.

Quote by timlikeHim
That said, I also despise "pay-to-play" gigs, with the following exceptions:

1. benefits/fundraisers - It is always great to see the kind of support that crowds and bands put toward these type of events. If someone is sick, or just wants to raise money/awareness for a good cause, GET INVOLVED! Everyone likes a band with a heart.

2. community festivals - There are two in my area, and we have always chosed to participate. Kinda along the same lines as point #1. It's great to see a community come out and rock and have a good time. It's almost like, for 1 day, people forget their problems and just enjoy life!


I have never paid to play at benefits, fundraisers or community festivals. The band will usually work for free in the former two, and sometimes get paid for the latter. The band is acting as volunteer workers at the events. Whether you donate/buy stuff is up to you, but it's not a donation or "getting involved" if you're being forced to pay.


Quote by timlikeHim
To me, whatever minimal entry fee is required is a small price to pay. Plus, if you have any Cds or merch, you can easily make back what it cost you. Consider it an investment...kinda like paying it forward.


$33/band member is hardly a "minimal" fee. If a 4 person band entered the GBOB as mentioned above, it would cost $165. If you were selling EPs at $10 a pop you would have to sell 17 EPs at the gig to make $5. Not the best business approach, especially considering that the EP cost $2,500 - $3,000 to record and replicate.

Selling 17 EPs is quite a lot for an originals gig, but if you wish to break even one day on your recording prices, you'd have to sell 8,500 - 10,200 EPs at the pay to play gigs, rather than 250-300 if you were working for free. If your band was paid $100 for the gig, you could lower that even further.

There really is no excuse to go for a pay-to-play gig. You can team up with some other band in the area, put in the same amount of money and have your own gig, taking cuts of the door. It'll probably be promoted better too, considering there could be 20 people over 4 bands making sure people hear about it.
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#12
Quote by AlanHB
Good bands expect, and do get paid to play gigs. Not the other way around. There's no use making a loss on a gig, especially one as badly promoted as a pay-to-play affair. As a result attending a pay-to-play affair usually consists of beginner bands, many are not tight, and almost none have a following.


I have never paid to play at benefits, fundraisers or community festivals. The band will usually work for free in the former two, and sometimes get paid for the latter. The band is acting as volunteer workers at the events. Whether you donate/buy stuff is up to you, but it's not a donation or "getting involved" if you're being forced to pay.


$33/band member is hardly a "minimal" fee. If a 4 person band entered the GBOB as mentioned above, it would cost $165. If you were selling EPs at $10 a pop you would have to sell 17 EPs at the gig to make $5. Not the best business approach, especially considering that the EP cost $2,500 - $3,000 to record and replicate.

Selling 17 EPs is quite a lot for an originals gig, but if you wish to break even one day on your recording prices, you'd have to sell 8,500 - 10,200 EPs at the pay to play gigs, rather than 250-300 if you were working for free. If your band was paid $100 for the gig, you could lower that even further.

There really is no excuse to go for a pay-to-play gig. You can team up with some other band in the area, put in the same amount of money and have your own gig, taking cuts of the door. It'll probably be promoted better too, considering there could be 20 people over 4 bands making sure people hear about it.


Thank you for missing my point entirely.
#13
Quote by timlikeHim
Thank you for missing my point entirely.


Alright, what was your point?
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#14
Great post, Alan. And great comment, Slacker. Maybe you guys should team up for the article?

Personally I don't like the idea of a music scene as a competition. I'm not naive, of course it is. But it shouldn't be. I'd rather have people play music because they enjoy it and not because they're vying for the #1 spot.

I know that even bands that compete do enjoy playing too. But there are lots of little decisions to be made in a competition that are detrimental to the music quality.

Weeding out lesser quality, like timlikeHim mentioned, can be done by listening to demo's or auditions. And even lesser bands can come up with a great song.
#15
Pay-to-play is why I haven't played live for nearly 2 years

Greedy scum trying to make money off of kids with hopes.
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#16
Quote by AlanHB
Alright, what was your point?

Not sure if this was his point, but there are plenty of good bands with tiny fanbases and thus can't draw crowds. How is a venue owner supposed to know if the band he's hiring is actually going to draw an audience and make him money?
#17
An easy way to alleviate the problem you bring up Scourge is to just have the band run everything. In this way a venue is out nothing and only has money to gain. You have the bands pay the sound guy and they get all the door. The venue in turn keeps all bar sales.

In most cases even if a band has no draw they will promote the crap out of their own bills which invariably brings in more people if the band doesn't suck balls.

This is how we run most of our bills and venues have loved us thus far. We, as the unproven entity take the risks (as we should, we are the ones who want to play). Then in turn, for every person we make money off of the bar does as well.

Its all about charging reasonable enough rates for shows that even random people will give it a go. Once you figure this out your golden.

I know there are exceptions to every argument but I don't believe that any hardworking band that puts out quality material can't get gigs. In many cases its merely laziness or lack of ingenuity that leads people to pay to play.
#18
Quote by Scourge441
Not sure if this was his point, but there are plenty of good bands with tiny fanbases and thus can't draw crowds. How is a venue owner supposed to know if the band he's hiring is actually going to draw an audience and make him money?


Yes, that's the whole idea behind pay to play. Theoretically they could find out if the band is any good through their demos and established fan base (if any), or by promoting the event like they should. However instead they can get any random band to pay, so they don't have to do any of the above, and don't do any of the above. The bands involved STILL do majority of the promotion of the event, despite paying to be involved.

If you think just because a band is willing to pay means they're good, you're wrong. There is no link between skill and money, although good bands are usually paid.
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#19
Quote by merriman44
An easy way to alleviate the problem you bring up Scourge is to just have the band run everything. In this way a venue is out nothing and only has money to gain. You have the bands pay the sound guy and they get all the door. The venue in turn keeps all bar sales.

In most cases even if a band has no draw they will promote the crap out of their own bills which invariably brings in more people if the band doesn't suck balls.

This is how we run most of our bills and venues have loved us thus far. We, as the unproven entity take the risks (as we should, we are the ones who want to play). Then in turn, for every person we make money off of the bar does as well.

Its all about charging reasonable enough rates for shows that even random people will give it a go. Once you figure this out your golden.

I know there are exceptions to every argument but I don't believe that any hardworking band that puts out quality material can't get gigs. In many cases its merely laziness or lack of ingenuity that leads people to pay to play.

This is a good answer, at least for bars/smaller venues. The next step (for anyone in a band who's reading) is to make sure you have some kind of live footage of yourself playing to a substantial crowd, and make said footage part of the press kit you send to bigger venues, to show them that you can draw a crowd.

Quote by AlanHB
Theoretically they could find out if the band is any good through their demos and established fan base (if any), or by promoting the event like they should.

The quality of the band's music is irrelevant if no one's heard of them. Hence, promoting the show won't do much good; I don't know many people who just go to random shows with bands they've never heard of just to check them out.

Of course, the question is a moot one because merriman pretty much nailed the answer.
#20
Quote by Scourge441
The quality of the band's music is irrelevant if no one's heard of them. Hence, promoting the show won't do much good; I don't know many people who just go to random shows with bands they've never heard of just to check them out.

Of course, the question is a moot one because merriman pretty much nailed the answer.


It's true - when an original band is starting out it's mostly friends, family and other bands in the audience. It's best to try to get support slots with other bands, but it's all part of paying your dues.

You still have to get people to hear about the band - that's part of promotion.
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#21
Quote by Scourge441
The next step (for anyone in a band who's reading) is to make sure you have some kind of live footage of yourself playing to a substantial crowd, and make said footage part of the press kit you send to bigger venues, to show them that you can draw a crowd.


The quality of the band's music is irrelevant if no one's heard of them. Hence, promoting the show won't do much good; I don't know many people who just go to random shows with bands they've never heard of just to check them out.

Of course, the question is a moot one because merriman pretty much nailed the answer.


Close my friend. The next step is convincing those random people you speak of that you are MUCH bigger than you are. You do this in how you present yourself. And by this I mean how you present yourself everywhere. You need a dedicated website, you need to wear the right clothes when you are promoting, you need to talk professional when dealing with venues/promoters and talk like a normal dude who is in a band when dealing with the public. You have to talk to the radio stations in your area and network with every last guy you meet. Mostly however, you have to support local acts whether they are like you or not. Once folks see your out to help them, most (at least in my experience) will jump over themselves to help you. Go out and see a show and talk to the band members afterward. This is all SO important but nobody seems to get it.

This is how you build a fanbase. This is how you build a scene. In this day and age its the only way. No one is going to "find you." You have put in the work.
#22
^That is pretty spot on advice about the real world of local music. It takes a collective effort by everybody involved.

On another note, reguarding the original post (which was excellent, btw)

We have a fairly popular venue in my home city that everybody plays at. Recently though, some funny stuff started going on there. Normally they're a door fee type of place. Bands make door, pub makes alcohol sells and its pretty busy most nights of the week. As of a month ago they started booking bands, confirming them and then telling them they had to pay $25 to secure there slot. If the band refused the venue drops them. They claim that they're doing to prevent bands from "not showing up" but they don't return the money like its a deposit or anything. Seems like they're getting greedy.

Anyway, thought i'd share that.
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#23
As of a month ago they started booking bands, confirming them and then telling them they had to pay $25 to secure there slot. If the band refused the venue drops them. They claim that they're doing to prevent bands from "not showing up" but they don't return the money like its a deposit or anything. Seems like they're getting greedy.


To be fair to the venue, nearly every gig I've played at, one or more bands hasn't turned up (including one time where the entire night had to be cancelled because the headliner and second band didn't show). It's a hassle for the venue, which will have brought extra staff in, and hurts the other bands.
That's not to say that I'm keen on them charging an extra fee - $25 is a fair chunk of what a band would get from the door, and even if they were taking it as a deposit it'd be a bit questionable - but you can see their concern.
#24
Quote by DefRebelOrange
^That is pretty spot on advice about the real world of local music. It takes a collective effort by everybody involved.

On another note, reguarding the original post (which was excellent, btw)

We have a fairly popular venue in my home city that everybody plays at. Recently though, some funny stuff started going on there. Normally they're a door fee type of place. Bands make door, pub makes alcohol sells and its pretty busy most nights of the week. As of a month ago they started booking bands, confirming them and then telling them they had to pay $25 to secure there slot. If the band refused the venue drops them. They claim that they're doing to prevent bands from "not showing up" but they don't return the money like its a deposit or anything. Seems like they're getting greedy.

Anyway, thought i'd share that.


Interesting stuff there - it's a pay to play thing but with a much lesser fee. You're right in thinking that it would be ok if it acted as a deposit (or maybe even credit for a bar tab), but shifty stuff indeed. How has the local scene reacted?
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#25
hit the nail on the head Alan. Its almost more insidious because they are saying its basically insurance and then pocketing it. However, if you have an established relationship with this venue (which if you have played there you damn well better! Always get names, talk to the owner, get the bookees phone number) you should be able to not pay this as they should know you will never cancel. To ensure they understand this state it, "We will never cancel on you save for a family death." If they still make you pay, its time to find a new venue.
#26
Quote by Samzawadi
To be fair to the venue, nearly every gig I've played at, one or more bands hasn't turned up (including one time where the entire night had to be cancelled because the headliner and second band didn't show). It's a hassle for the venue, which will have brought extra staff in, and hurts the other bands.
That's not to say that I'm keen on them charging an extra fee - $25 is a fair chunk of what a band would get from the door, and even if they were taking it as a deposit it'd be a bit questionable - but you can see their concern.


Oh I totally understand that part. I've played several gigs where we were approached by the club owner or manager and told that a band didn't show up so our set time was being increased to feel the gap. It's terrible that bands do that but the rest of us are sort of getting punished for it. But at the very least it needs to be an "ensured show-up" deposit.

Quote by AlanHB
Interesting stuff there - it's a pay to play thing but with a much lesser fee. You're right in thinking that it would be ok if it acted as a deposit (or maybe even credit for a bar tab), but shifty stuff indeed. How has the local scene reacted?


The bar tab option would be great idea for them. $25 is peanuts in alcohol, especially for a band. Plus, the bands are more likely to keep drinking thus, spending money. Our scene hasn't reacted too well. Its a small music scene were I live with only a handful of clubs and most of us feel that this move is going to negitively impact the music. Its terrible because the venue has a great atmosphere and a good built in crowd that comes just to hear the local bands play.
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#27
Ok, I read most of the posts here, forgive me if this was covered...

I'm in a band that's trying to get off the ground. We have no delusions that we're gonna be the next Metallica or anything, we just wanna go out on the weekends and have fun playing bars and clubs.

In a pay to play arrangement is there ever a situation where the band recoups that money, or even makes a profit? Like they get a cut of the door, so if they draw enough people they make some profit? If there is not only no profit to be made by the band... in fact, the band would LOSE money, I don't see any reason why any band would go for something like this other than getting exposure, or if all the clubs in the area do business this way.

I haven't heard of many places around me that do this, thankfully.
Quote by tubetime86
He's obviously pretty young, and I'd guess he's being raised by wolves, or at least humans with the intellectual capacity and compassion of wolves.


You finally made it home, draped in the flag that you fell for.
And so it goes
#28
Sure, you can make a profit, but at the cost of all of your friends and family. And when I say profit, I mean a very small percentage of the ticket price. The average pay to play show will give you maybe a 1.50 of every 15 dollar ticket after you have sold 40 or so.

Just don't do it. In no way is it ever worth it. If you just want to have fun on the weekends go talk to a bar owner and set something up. Its not nearly as hard as most folks make it out to be. You just can't piss yourself when you go up to talk to him and you should be fine.