#2
I would go but **** me is union society membership expensive - talk about elitism...
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#3
7pm in the UK? That would make it around 6 here. I'll probably watch it; Stephen Fry is a great speaker and I enjoy listening to him generally. Thanks for the link.
#5
It'll be 11 am on the west coast, I'm taking IB tests. I'm glad I can still watch it later though.

I take it that the debate topic is just a debate topic, or is there more to it?
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


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Last edited by rockingamer2 at May 12, 2011,
#6
Who the hell would argue that classical music isn't relevant? I'm going to kick his ass.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#7
Quote by Xiaoxi
Who the hell would argue that classical music isn't relevant? I'm going to kick his ass.


unfortunately this upcoming generation will have a hard time with it because they'll never have been exposed to it with crappy tv nowadays, remember watching Fantasia and hearing the rite of spring? that was bad ass.
#8
Quote by Xiaoxi
Who the hell would argue that classical music isn't relevant? I'm going to kick his ass.


I would. It isn't socially relevant at all. If you ask any average teenager about classical music, it's doubtful that their knowledge extends beyond Mozart, Beethoven and maybe Bach, and even then if they knew anything other than Eine Klein Nachtmmusik and the 5th symphony I'd be shocked. And of course, the prelude from the first cello suite is that song they play on t.v. when they're at a gala of some sort.

The only relevance I could really see it having is in video game music.
#9
Yeah, but it's still vastly important. A lot of kids don't like reading literature either. Would you say that's irrelevant as well? So what's left then, a culture full of dumbed down, commercialized art that does nothing for human intelligence?

Yea I realized how elitist that sounds, so...sorry for that.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#10
I'm not arguing that it's unimportant, I think it's insanely important, but I could never make the argument that it's still relevant culturally. I totally agree that true "art music " needs to be, or should be, part of popular art culture, but I just don't really think it is.
#11
It's historically relevant, but it's not on the radar of most youth. NO debate will change this, though it might give some elitists a chance to vent about the entire world not embracing their personal view.

Personally I think it's sad that a majority of the youth today are more familiar with Kanye West then they are the music of Mozart. But at least I'm not in denial.

Also, I'm aware that times change. New music will evolve.....what's mainstream will evolve as well. Something like classical music may indeed become mainstream in the future. I can tell you though, that it's not going to happen because of a debate. You're not going to convince people to change their tastes.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 12, 2011,
#12
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I'm not arguing that it's unimportant, I think it's insanely important, but I could never make the argument that it's still relevant culturally. I totally agree that true "art music " needs to be, or should be, part of popular art culture, but I just don't really think it is.

Then there are a few things wrong with this debate.

1. What is the point of discussing whether or not it is relevant to the youth without any further implications? If classical music is indeed deemed irrelevant, then what purpose will it have?

2. There are countless numbers of young people who practice the discipline of classical music even today who may be worse off without it.

The discussion shouldn't be whether it's relevant or not. It should be how to make it more relevant. There are too many teachers of classical performance today that are destroying any semblance of life and enthusiasm for what is supposed to be very interesting and emotional art.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#13
Quote by Xiaoxi
Then there are a few things wrong with this debate.

1. What is the point of discussing whether or not it is relevant to the youth without any further implications? If classical music is indeed deemed irrelevant, then what purpose will it have?

2. There are countless numbers of young people who practice the discipline of classical music even today who may be worse off without it.

The discussion shouldn't be whether it's relevant or not. It should be how to make it more relevant. There are too many teachers of classical performance today that are destroying any semblance of life and enthusiasm for what is supposed to be very interesting and emotional art.



1) Nobody has the power to "deem" it irrelevant or not.

it is what it is. Like any part of our history, the period of classical music and the practices involved are obviously highly relevant. Nobody can debate that away.


2) yup it's still being practiced. hmmm, maybe because it's relevant.
as far as people being "better off".... I dunno, better off than what?

I don't think you can make classical music more relevant. it is what it is.
you can't force relevance.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 12, 2011,
#14
Quote by GuitarMunky
1) Nobody has the power to "deem" it irrelevant or not.
Yet they're having this debate...

I don't think you can make classical music more relevant. it is what it is.
you can't force relevance.

Not by having this debate. But over time and by "marketing" and shaping it correctly, it can certainly become....more attractive to people again.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#15
Quote by Xiaoxi
Yet they're having this debate...


Yes, they are. Do you really think it's possible that ...

1) they would actually deem it irrelevant?

2) that what they deem will make the slightest bit of difference?

Quote by Xiaoxi

Not by having this debate. But over time and by "marketing" and shaping it correctly, it can certainly become....more attractive to people again.

How do you plan on doing that?
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 12, 2011,
#16
Quote by GuitarMunky
Yes, they are. Do you really think it's possible that ...

1) they would actually deem it irrelevant?

2) that what they deem will make the slightest bit of difference?


How do you plan on doing that?

Well that's the thing. It is a futile and pointless debate and they should, instead, focus on ways to increase its relevance. Of course I can't tell you what we should do, because I'm only one person. That's why there should be global conferences on this sort of thing (and what this debate could have been instead).

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#17
Quote by Xiaoxi

Not by having this debate. But over time and by "marketing" and shaping it correctly, it can certainly become....more attractive to people again.


unfortunately frequently when they do they put four skinny bitches in thongs playing their instruments knee deep in white foam. and they're playing 32nd arpeggios with a drum beat, classical my ass.

it's also very, very important in films. that's ok, back in the say people wrote for people/churches etc cos that's where there was money, now there's money in films. it's also interesting to note that when people were writing classical music, ht eoldies of that day were lamenting that the youth didn't like older modal stuff!

as i said above, disney films in the past have made extensive use of classical music, and even more importantly, avant garde classical music, not just I IV V stuff, Stravinsky, Prokofiev etc. but this new generation doesn't have that i don't think.

seven more minutes and we'll know anyway
#18
Quote by gavk
unfortunately frequently when they do they put four skinny bitches in thongs playing their instruments knee deep in white foam. and they're playing 32nd arpeggios with a drum beat, classical my ass.
I was thinking more effect, more subtle, and less tacky ways. I'm sure it's possible given the right minds and resources.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#19
Quote by Xiaoxi
Well that's the thing. It is a futile and pointless debate and they should, instead, focus on ways to increase its relevance.


That would be pointless as well. Increasing the relevance of classical music simply isn't in their power.

Quote by Xiaoxi

Of course I can't tell you what we should do, because I'm only one person. That's why there should be global conferences on this sort of thing (and what this debate could have been instead).


Then we'd have a bunch of single persons that can't tell you what we should do, but will try and do it anyway.

The truth is that aside from taking over the world and enforcing fascist rules on musicians, you'll never be able to force a change in music.

What you can do though is to speak through your music. You are one person, but that doesn't make you powerless. If you create music that people enjoy, you'll be planting a seed that will influence/inspire others.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 12, 2011,
#20
Quote by Xiaoxi
I was thinking more effect, more subtle, and less tacky ways. I'm sure it's possible given the right minds and resources.


haha yeah i know that was just a particularly bad example i saw.

there's an element of rebellion though that's not really encapsulated in classical music that people may think it lacks (they clearly haven't heard stravinksy or mussorgksy though) but i think as well people have shit attention spans these days. everything is so cut down and shortened, it's just clips of different cultural references bleeted out over and over again in increasingly shortened and increasingly devalued..... bleets.

i was at a rugby match a while ago and every time they scored, it would play like 4 seconds of kings of leon. it didn't even finish the riff once. i actually had like an epiphany that in future these cultural references will be so shortened down that they will be almost binary in nature, just a beep that suggests an event or reference. everything is so motivic almost, buzz words repeated ad infinitum over and over again until some other obscure cultural reference overtakes it.

in time that riff will get shortened down to it's shortest possible amount, one note, and it will just play that one note, and the people who grew up with this as the norm will hear this and it will have the exact same emotive effect and conjure the same image in the way that the riff would have to the previous generation...

basically i don't see a society which only really seems to appreciate instant gratification and the degradation of culture to really appreciate classical music like the old days....

can anyone else get it working? it's supposed to be on now isn't it?
Last edited by gavk at May 12, 2011,
#21
Quote by GuitarMunky

Then we'd have a bunch of single persons that can't tell you what we should do, but will try and do it anyway.

Not at all. I'm not saying that we should dictate what people think. But collectively, a group of thinkers can come up with approaches and ideas to implement effective and unobtrusive changes. There are many global conferences for this kind of thing, TED for example.

Quote by gavk
haha yeah i know that was just a particularly bad example i saw.

there's an element of rebellion though that's not really encapsulated in classical music that people may think it lacks (they clearly haven't heard stravinksy or mussorgksy though) but i think as well people have shit attention spans these days. everything is so cut down and shortened, it's just clips of different cultural references bleeted out over and over again in increasingly shortened and increasingly devalued..... bleets.

i was at a rugby match a while ago and every time they scored, it would play like 4 seconds of kings of leon. it didn't even finish the riff once. i actually had like an epiphany that in future these cultural references will be so shortened down that they will be almost binary in nature, just a beep that suggests an event or reference. everything is so motivic almost, buzz words repeated ad infinitum over and over again until some other obscure cultural reference overtakes it.

in time that riff will get shortened down to it's shortest possible amount, one note, and it will just play that one note, and the people who grew up with this as the norm will hear this and it will have the exact same emotive effect and conjure the same image in the way that the riff would have to the previous generation...

basically i don't see a society which only really seems to appreciate instant gratification and the degradation of culture to really appreciate classical music like the old days....

can anyone else get it working? it's supposed to be on now isn't it?

You absolutely nailed why classical music wouldn't be relevant today. And at the same time, that highlights just how important it is. Our attention spans are getting shorter, and I honestly don't see how this will be anything less than detrimental to the human race. Classical music is one of the last things we have that require extended attention. I believe we need it now more than ever.

ps I hope this can be replayed because I'm at work so I can't watch right now.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#22
Quote by gavk
can anyone else get it working? it's supposed to be on now isn't it?


Yes! It started.
#23
Quote by Sóknardalr
Yes! It started.


haha i had gorrilaz on i was wondering what that faint clapping was!

pft!! middle class?!!?!
#24
who's winning guys?!

edit: love the wife beater

edit 2: it's interesting to see the crowds reaction to the speakers, the DJ guy had a lot of interactivity etc, then this guy gets up and it's just like getting talked at, like your being lectured. that really sums up the whole interactivity thing and is a major negative point...
Last edited by gavk at May 12, 2011,
#25
I'm not bothered about the interactivity. If i'm listening to Puccini I don't want to be jumping around 'downing bacardi breezers', and I most certainly don't want the whole listening experience ruined by some intrusive, distasteful 'bangin' beat'. Old people listen to Classical music, why would I want to ruin their listening experience at a concert with rowdy youth behavior when in short, we're all there for the same thing, to appreciate good music.

If I want interactivity I'll go out on the piss and listen to whatever's playing in the club. If I want to engage with music, I'm very happy sitting in my room/a concert hall and devoting my concentration to listening, appreciating and engaging with the music.

Basically, everything that Stephen Fry is saying.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at May 12, 2011,
#26
Interesting debate. How did you guys enjoy it? I found it rather interesting myself, but I'm not sure I was entirely convinced by either side, however Stephen Fry made some awesome points.
Last edited by Sóknardalr at May 12, 2011,
#27
Quote by Sóknardalr
Interesting debate. What did you guys think about it?


very interesting, steven fry was great as always! i wonder who won...

edit (to your edited post) yeah it certainly wasn't clear cut, in fact i'm not sure if either side really tackled what they might have..
Last edited by gavk at May 12, 2011,
#28
The guy who 'summed up' for the 'for' side was a total idiot... "who actually likes opera"
#29
interesting why people even need to "deem" classical music relevant, particularly by the number who listen, i mean look at art, literature etc. i'm sure there's not that many people who read asimov or phillip k dick but they're surely relevant as hell.

edit (again) ^ yeah he was an absolute ponce. whatever about liking something or not liking it, he was just pure derogatory about it, quite unprofessional.

your man who said about not teaching composition was right though, so much or studying music in college is to appreciate the greats, there's very little (or none in some places) of actually trying to compose great music; i think a lot of classical music is so daunted by how amazing the past was that it makes them impotent to try and create more music, they think that nothing can ever stand up against bach etc, so they don't even try, that's even one of the reasons for the break in tonality at the start of the 20th century
Last edited by gavk at May 12, 2011,
#30
missed the live steam unfortunatly, has anyone got a link where i can re-watch it.
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