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xxrobbie
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#1
ok so i'm trying to figure out what key enter sandman is in, everyone says E minor, but how is that possible if there is an F in the song, in the verse they play an F chord. theres no F in an E minor scale, i started to think it was E dorian so i started playing a G minor pent to solo with but it didnt sound right. am i crazy? is it really e minor or is that F chord in the verse just metallicas way of not following theory and just being badasses like they are haha
Reagar
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#2
Something is still in E minor if it includes accidentals, ie, the F. It's all about the tonal centre, which is still E. Most songs include accidentals (notes that don't fit into the original scale) and most songs are in a specific key.
spiderjerusalem
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#3
it's in E. it can be in E and not strictly adhere to E minor. the main riff has a Bb in it, i think, but it's still in E
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greenbrain
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#4
If the scale goes E F G A B C D E (e minor but with a flat 2nd) its just the phrygian mode of C major, making your tonal center E still. Metal uses this mode all the time.
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#5
Quote by Reagar
Something is still in E minor if it includes accidentals, ie, the F. It's all about the tonal centre, which is still E. Most songs include accidentals (notes that don't fit into the original scale) and most songs are in a specific key.


This.

It gives it a bit of variety and you'll need to take it accidentals into account if you're soloing over it. It's still mainly E though.
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#6
Quote by greenbrain
If the scale goes E F G A B C D E (e minor but with a flat 2nd) its just the phrygian mode of C major, making your tonal center E still. Metal uses this mode all the time.


This.

I was about to come into this topic and say this exactly, but no need for it now.
xxrobbie
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#7
Quote by greenbrain
If the scale goes E F G A B C D E (e minor but with a flat 2nd) its just the phrygian mode of C major, making your tonal center E still. Metal uses this mode all the time.



yea but the phrygian mode doesn't have a B flat in it
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#8
Wah + E minor - artist substance = Metallica.
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#9
Quote by greenbrain
If the scale goes E F G A B C D E (e minor but with a flat 2nd) its just the phrygian mode of C major, making your tonal center E still. Metal uses this mode all the time.

Not this.

There is no "phrygian mode of C major"...E phrygian is E phrygian, and Enter Sandman isn't in it.

Why is it in E minor? Because that's the chord it resolves to.
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xxrobbie
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#10
NO I JUST FIGURED IT OUT ITS E DORIAN, think about it. it goes D, E, F, G, A, A#, C, D but when you solo in E dorian your really soloing in G major also know as E minor, so yes you guys are right it IS E MINOR but its REALLY E DORIAN its just they're identical. E DORIAN=E MINOR= G MAJOR
steven seagull
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#12
No it isn't.

It's in E minor.

You solo in E minor.
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xxrobbie
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#13
shit i forgot about the F#, now im really confused, i guess it just goes back to the whole idea of accidentals
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#14
I don't even think Metallica put this much thought into it.
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#15
It's E minor with accidentals.

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#16
Quote by steven seagull
Not this.

There is no "phrygian mode of C major"...E phrygian is E phrygian, and Enter Sandman isn't in it.

Why is it in E minor? Because that's the chord it resolves to.


There is actually. E phrygian is the third mode of C major, or C ionian, which I think is what he meant.
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Geldin
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#17
Why do people who do not understand modes insist on talking like they do? Steve's got the right of it. It's a Metallica song. It's either in E minor or B minor. I'm almost completely serious.
Geldin
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#19
Quote by professorlamp
its E locrian jesus christ

NO! WRONG! IT IS NOT MODAL!

Enter Sandman is in E minor. It's got accidentals, but it's all built around the E minor scale and E minor chord progressions.
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#20
Quote by Geldin
NO! WRONG! IT IS NOT MODAL!

Enter Sandman is in E minor. It's got accidentals, but it's all built around the E minor scale and E minor chord progressions.



i think he was being sarcastic



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#21
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i think he was being sarcastic

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#22
Quote by steven seagull
Not this.

There is no "phrygian mode of C major"...E phrygian is E phrygian, and Enter Sandman isn't in it.

Why is it in E minor? Because that's the chord it resolves to.

I'll agree that the song is in E Minor.

But the first part is wrong. E Phrygian IS C Major, just starting on E. That's what modes are. And although people wouldn't normally say "phrygian mode of C Major," it's awkwardness doesn't make it not a fact.
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Danny L Small
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#23
Quote by kumamilesbear
I'll agree that the song is in E Minor.

But the first part is wrong. E Phrygian IS C Major, just starting on E. That's what modes are. And although people wouldn't normally say "phrygian mode of C Major," it's awkwardness doesn't make it not a fact.


That's really the only point I was trying to make.

I'm also in favor of E minor.
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professorlamp
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#24
the starting riff is 1 b3 b5 4, then after that it hammers away on a 1 and b2. and since the clean riff is the biggest part of the song I'd say its locrian.
If it's in E minor you've got a shit load of accidentals. Just because he wailes in e minor pentatonic because hes a twat doesn't deny that the rest of the song is E locrian. THERES b5's EVERYWHERE as well as b2's
turtlewax
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#25
he starting riff is 1 b3 b5 4, then after that it hammers away on a 1 and b2. and since the clean riff is the biggest part of the song I'd say its locrian.
If it's in E minor you've got a shit load of accidentals. Just because he wailes in e minor pentatonic because hes a twat doesn't deny that the rest of the song is E locrian. THERES b5's EVERYWHERE as well as b2's


It's not modal at all, it maybe hints at Locrian but it's very much Eminor
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james.hetfield
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#27
f chord in the key of e minor in one of metallica's trademarks like their tempo,time/feel changes during songs!!!
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Last edited by james.hetfield at May 16, 2011,
RDSElite
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#28
Quote by kumamilesbear
I'll agree that the song is in E Minor.

But the first part is wrong. E Phrygian IS C Major, just starting on E. That's what modes are. And although people wouldn't normally say "phrygian mode of C Major," it's awkwardness doesn't make it not a fact.


No, E Phrygian IS NOT C Major starting on E, it only has the same notes. Go and study modes again.
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professorlamp
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#29
Quote by RDSElite
No, E Phrygian IS NOT C Major starting on E, it only has the same notes. Go and study modes again.



...ummm yes it is,

The only difference is the intervals

C major = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

E phrygian = 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

You could use E phrygian over a C major backing and it'd sound like C, it depends on the context of the backing, they're the same notes....
Last edited by professorlamp at May 16, 2011,
steven seagull
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#30
Quote by professorlamp
...ummm yes it is,

The only difference is the intervals

C major = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

E phrygian = 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

You could use E phrygian over a C major backing and it'd sound like C, it depends on the context of the backing, they're the same notes....

Exactly, those things that define a scale.

They are indeed the same notes, but they're not the same scale, not interchangeable and won't occur in the same situations. You can't use E phrygian over a C major backing because that C major backing defines your tonic - it simply doesn't exist.
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steven seagull
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#32
That's just it, you're not "using E phrygian" because there's nothing about what you're doing that suggests it. The C major backing defines the tonic, which in turn tells you the intervals you're using - so E phrygian doesn't exist at all in that context.
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RDSElite
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#33
Quote by professorlamp
...ummm yes it is,

The only difference is the intervals

C major = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

E phrygian = 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

You could use E phrygian over a C major backing and it'd sound like C, it depends on the context of the backing, they're the same notes....


No, you would be using C major, not E Phrygian. God, learn about modes before posting crap about it here. I'm a music and musicology student, I know what I'm talking about.
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#34
I'm beginning to understand the exasperation the forum regulars have with posts about modes...
Arby911
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#35
After having read perhaps 5,000 posts here about modes and the argument that ALWAYS ensues I have come to a few small conclusions.

1. I don't know shit about modes
2. Neither do the rest of you...

In my world if you can't explain it it reasonable and concrete terms to a layman such that they will, while not fully grasping the issue, at least have a comfortable definition, you don't know the subject sufficiently well.

I've seen myriad posts about what modes "aren't", and how someone else is an idiot for thinking "X is in Y mode" etc.

I've yet to see one that made any damn sense at all out of modes. Y'all are too busy trying to one-up each other and show off your own knowledge to be bothered to actually impart some useful information.

Meanwhile there's a whole world of musicians out there that are making incredible music, and most of them don't care one way or the other about modes...

Carry on.
professorlamp
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#36
Quote by RDSElite
No, you would be using C major, not E Phrygian. God, learn about modes before posting crap about it here. I'm a music and musicology student, I know what I'm talking about.



edit: lost my cool, in short dont be a dick.
Last edited by professorlamp at May 16, 2011,
Zaphod_Beeblebr
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#37
Quote by Arby911
After having read perhaps 5,000 posts here about modes and the argument that ALWAYS ensues I have come to a few small conclusions.

1. I don't know shit about modes
2. Neither do the rest of you...

In my world if you can't explain it it reasonable and concrete terms to a layman such that they will, while not fully grasping the issue, at least have a comfortable definition, you don't know the subject sufficiently well.

I've seen myriad posts about what modes "aren't", and how someone else is an idiot for thinking "X is in Y mode" etc.

I've yet to see one that made any damn sense at all out of modes. Y'all are too busy trying to one-up each other and show off your own knowledge to be bothered to actually impart some useful information.

Meanwhile there's a whole world of musicians out there that are making incredible music, and most of them don't care one way or the other about modes...

Carry on.


Modes are a slightly different way of approaching theory that is a careful balance of tension and resolution that requires very strict adherence to the notes of the mode for it to work. If you can make it work you can gain access to some interesting feels but it takes a lot of doing since any misuse of the notes will destroy the tonal centre and throw it back into a standard setting.

Given that, it's more important to define what a mode isn't than what it is. It isn't a different physical way of playing, it isn't starting a scale on a different note, it isn't just using a flat 2nd in an otherwise entirely natural minor song. If you're playing a song in C major and you start a run on D that isn't a dorian run. This is what people often misunderstand and need to be told because it is fallacious information.
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Last edited by Zaphod_Beeblebr at May 16, 2011,
RDSElite
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#38
Quote by professorlamp
edit: lost my cool, in short dont be a dick.


Didn't see what sou posted, but I don't mean to offend anyone. I, like many other memebers here I guess, just get a bit frustrated on these forums by all of these posts wanking about 'modes', yet get stuff completely wrong.

Excuse me if I offended you
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Blaze/Detox
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#39
its not that its completely wrong, its just an incorrect way of thinking about it.

I think all that needs to be said is "just because two scales have the same pitch content does not make them equivalent..."
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#40
GOD DAMNIT!

This is why you don't EVER mention modes on the forums! Very few people actually know what the hell a mode is, and when they tell you you're wrong everyone says they don't know what they're talking about.

Enter Sandman is in E minor, and it has accidentals, shit. No modes involved, it's not E phrygian, its not E Dorian...

IT'S E MINOR!!!!


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