#1
Hey. So I'm the vocalist of this upstarting metal band that I'm starting with two of my best friends, both of whom are guitarists.

As people, we mesh very well together, but as musicians, the two guitarists are so incredibly different in style and playing skill that I'm really at a loss for how to manage this situation.

Here's the most important thing: I'm doing this to have fun with my friends. I don't want to kick either one of them out of the band.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to explain my situation a bit more. So, basically my best friend, who is the rhythm guitarist, only likes breakdowns and shit. His favorite bands are Devil Wears Prada and a band that I showed him called All Shall Perish. Hopefully if you know either of these bands, you can envision what kind of guitar player he wants to be.

My other friend, the lead guitarist, has his own very unique ****ing style that is pretty much completely incomprehensible. The best I can say is that it is a combination of melodic death metal, technical death metal, power metal, thrash metal, neoclassical metal, and even a bit of hair metal. The guy just plays whatever the hell he wants, and most of it is very dissonant and out-of-tempo, making it almost impossible to put any rhythm guitar behind it.

Now here's the problem: no matter how often I preach to them, the two are completely refusing to make a compromise, mainly because they both believe that there is no way to fuse both high pitched melodic and "high-energy" riffing and soloing and shit with breakdowns and chunky low rhythmic riffing.

Is there a specific band or genre that anyone of you can think of that does this, sort of fusing many genres together while still retaining enough of a core element to have sick breakdowns? If I could show them examples of other bands that work with the same type of assets that we have at our disposal, I'm hoping that they'll both become more inspired to work together and not individually.

Any help or advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
#2
Sounds like Bro-core. But seriously, just write whatever. Worry about labels later.
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#4
Meshugaaaaah!
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#5
If they can't write music together, they probably don't belong in a band together.

Personally I'd probably chuck them both out. The rhythm guy ONLY likes breakdowns...go figure, and the lead guitarist sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing, but believes he knows everything.
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#6
Quote by zeminion
Sounds like Bro-core. But seriously, just write whatever. Worry about labels later.


I don't care about labels or genres, specifically, but more bands that have a lot of high solo-ey shit as well as heavy breakdowns and chugging riffs, because right now we're all very close to giving up due to the lack of ability to write any sort of material that both guitarists can play and enjoy. If we wanted to we could just play breakdowns the entire time, but the lead guitarist would find that incredibly boring. We have virtually zero inspiration or ideas on how to combine our two guitarist's incredibly different styles.

Literally, the lead guitarist can't play anything chuggy or low, whereas the rhythm guitarist can't play anything past the first two or three strings on his guitar, lol. In fact I don't even think he ever bothers keeping the bottom three strings of his guitar in tune, lol, because he NEVER USES THEM. I don't want to hear about how bad that is, because yes, I do realize that's bad, but it is what it is--I'm just looking for band recommendations or ANY IDEAS on songwriting or anything that I can use to help get my friends started on writing riffs that work well with the two styles.


For example, this is our lead guitarist. All he wants to play is shit like this, but with a few palm muted notes on the thickest string thrown in there every now and then to make it feel more like an actual "riff" and not just an arpeggio, lol.

http://youtu.be/U6GkBWxLVtw

Our other guitarist, however, pretty much just wants to play breakdowns and low Meshuggah-type riffs. So I'm looking for sort of a combination of both, or just some ideas on songwriting on how to connect these two styles so that the two guitarists can actually work together :p
#7
The Faceless comes to mind, they have some deathcore breakdown type stuff but also tech-death leads that are high paced and "twiddly" Another band that sounds kinda like that is Cryptopsy

there are actually a shit ton of "death metal" bands that have music sounding like what you described... the only problem I see is if the lead guitarist is out of tempo. There isn't actually a way to have one person be constantly out of tempo and sound good
Last edited by Xenogis at May 16, 2011,
#8
Huh? Sounds like you're wanting to make them hear some djent! Periphery is something to try.
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#9
Quote by AlanHB
If they can't write music together, they probably don't belong in a band together.

Personally I'd probably chuck them both out. The rhythm guy ONLY likes breakdowns...go figure, and the lead guitarist sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing, but believes he knows everything.


Lmfao, you've literally pinned it perfectly.

I feel like if I could gain some knowledge of the guitar by playing for at least a couple of months I could write stuff that they'd both like (my style without any knowledge whatsoever of any notes while writing on guitar pro I'd say is like a modern-day Dark Tranquillity or mid In Flames style--very melodic but also a lot of rhythmic sections) then I could write the songs, and the rhythm guitarist even told me he'd love to play my shit, because he likes it a lot, but the lead guitarist thinks he knows everything and refuses to play my songs because he wants to write everything by himself. But everything he writes would sound like absolute shit with any other instrument involved :P
#10
Quote by Xenogis
The Faceless comes to mind, they have some deathcore breakdown type stuff but also tech-death leads that are high paced and "twiddly" Another band that sounds kinda like that is Cryptopsy

there are actually a shit ton of "death metal" bands that have music sounding like what you described... the only problem I see is if the lead guitarist is out of tempo. There isn't actually a way to have one person be constantly out of tempo and sound good


All three of us love the faceless but I don't think any of us have the skill for that. I mean think about it, during a lot of their faster riffs, both guitarists are playing crazy arpeggios and shit, just generally fast-paced high notes in the first place. Our lead guitarist could do that more than likely relatively easily, but the rhythm guitarist won't be able to keep up at all.

As for djent, I don't know, I have to look into it more. The bassist we're going to be potentially working with really likes djent. Got any recommendations?
#11
Sounds like post-hardcore/metalcore?
I don't know a lot about (read: enjoy) the genre but I'm pretty sure it has lead guitar, sweeping and easy one-chord breakdowns.
What you described sounds like my friend's band, listen to this for ideas: http://youtube.com/watch?v=3tjs2qntBoc

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#13
From the way this thread is going, it sounds like all of you guys are beginners, I'd strongly suggest working on some covers first and seeing if you can put those together. At the very least you'll learn to work together.
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#14
Quote by shinderhizzle84
Lmfao, you've literally pinned it perfectly.

I feel like if I could gain some knowledge of the guitar by playing for at least a couple of months I could write stuff that they'd both like (my style without any knowledge whatsoever of any notes while writing on guitar pro I'd say is like a modern-day Dark Tranquillity or mid In Flames style--very melodic but also a lot of rhythmic sections) then I could write the songs, and the rhythm guitarist even told me he'd love to play my shit, because he likes it a lot, but the lead guitarist thinks he knows everything and refuses to play my songs because he wants to write everything by himself. But everything he writes would sound like absolute shit with any other instrument involved :P

sorry but the lead guitarist sucks if he can't play lead over low rhythmic riffing, and breakdowns. sorry but part of playing lead is, being ready to solo over pretty much anything, yes somethings are way more difficult than others, but being a metal lead guitarist you should be ready for a bunch of riffing in the rhythm.....
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#15
Quote by krypticguitar87
sorry but the lead guitarist sucks if he can't play lead over low rhythmic riffing, and breakdowns. sorry but part of playing lead is, being ready to solo over pretty much anything, yes somethings are way more difficult than others, but being a metal lead guitarist you should be ready for a bunch of riffing in the rhythm.....


Or even in the lead...I can't think of any metal guitarist lead or rhythm who doesn't downpick chug chug most of the time.

I'm going to guess that this guy can play random notes really fast. Not particularly useful, however if he's not available for a gig you could always get a monkey or kitchen utensil to fill in for him.
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#16
I think until one of them actually writes something and actually realizes first hand that the two different styles can't be meshed together they should both let go of the ego and stfu.
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#17
Quote by AlanHB
Or even in the lead...I can't think of any metal guitarist lead or rhythm who doesn't downpick chug chug most of the time.

I'm going to guess that this guy can play random notes really fast. Not particularly useful, however if he's not available for a gig you could always get a monkey or kitchen utensil to fill in for him.

yeah thats exactly what I figured, although it's possible that he just never played with anyone else.

although on your other piont I would say I'd prefer a hyperactive 4yo, not only can they play the samething but you get all kinds of cute points
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#18
Quote by Bryc3e
I think until one of them actually writes something and actually realizes first hand that the two different styles can't be meshed together they should both let go of the ego and stfu.


All styles can be meshed. For example here we have one guy who likes breakdowns, and another guy who likes random thrash metal stuff. However they can't seem to understand they can write random thrash metal with breakdowns, so we have this silly situation.

I'm still going for the covers.
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#19
Quote by Bryc3e
I think until one of them actually writes something and actually realizes first hand that the two different styles can't be meshed together they should both let go of the ego and stfu.

sorry for the double post but I just have to say that it isn't the styles that can't be meshed its the egos.....
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#20
Quote by krypticguitar87
sorry for the double post but I just have to say that it isn't the styles that can't be meshed its the egos.....


Don't worry, I saved you so it wasn't a double post, just instead rephrasing what I said. You decide which was the worse offence
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#21
Quote by AlanHB
All styles can be meshed. For example here we have one guy who likes breakdowns, and another guy who likes random thrash metal stuff. However they can't seem to understand they can write random thrash metal with breakdowns, so we have this silly situation.

I'm still going for the covers.



Yeah that's what I mean. By writing something he's going to to realize that it is possible and it isn't blasphemous to do so. I might'v phrased that a bit confusing in my post.
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This +10000

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#23
Thanks for all the replies guys. Yeah, whoever mentioned that we are beginners is sort of correct. I've been doing vocals for about 4 years now and they've both been playing guitar for approximately two but none of us have any experience actually being in a band.

And see, I'd LOVE to do covers, but since none of us can agree on the same music (I love melodic death metal and the lead loves anything, no matter the subgenre, so long as it has complex guitar and the rhythm guitarist hates anything fast and high pitched, lol...) so we argue about that as well.

Does anyone know of any bands we could cover that would have breakdowns and stuff but also high-pitched and technically complex lead guitar? I would do stuff like The Faceless but the rhythm guitarist won't be able to keep up. To be honest I don't care what genre of metal we play--I just want to freaking play, lol.

I suggested starting off with covers multiple times but it's hard since none of us like the same music whatsoever, lol. The rhythm guitarist can't keep up if he has to play the same thing the lead is playing or if he's harmonizing the lead, but the lead guitarist refuses to play the same thing the rhythm guitarist is playing if it's a simple low chugging riff or a breakdown.

I'm thinking that this isn't going to work, now, lol. The rhythm guitarist has said he was open to playing other genres of music so long as he could incorporate a few breakdowns in the songs every now and then, but the problem is that he's not good enough to keep up if he has to harmonize or play along with the lead guitarist. The lead guitarist is being really stubborn, though.

Now here's a completely different question: If I wanted to kick the lead guitarist out without being a huge asshole, how the hell do I do it? I mean he's still a good friend of mine and I don't want it to damage the friendship. How would one go about doing that?
#24
You guys aren't a band and I don't see it progressing into a band the way you are all being. Kick the lead guitarist out and tell your rhythm guitarist to open up his mind a little. There is more to metal than shredding solos and breakdowns. Trust me.... I ended up going solo because I had a lead guitarist who thought he knew everything about theory and try to play scales he thought sounded cool but sounded like shit and just said, "it sounds so metal". He also could never play in time and made lame excuses like "I am playing 15/16 over your 4/4" and we could never, EVER, agree on anything.
#25
Quote by Weaponxclaws
You guys aren't a band and I don't see it progressing into a band the way you are all being. Kick the lead guitarist out and tell your rhythm guitarist to open up his mind a little. There is more to metal than shredding solos and breakdowns. Trust me.... I ended up going solo because I had a lead guitarist who thought he knew everything about theory and try to play scales he thought sounded cool but sounded like shit and just said, "it sounds so metal". He also could never play in time and made lame excuses like "I am playing 15/16 over your 4/4" and we could never, EVER, agree on anything.


Sounds exactly like my lead guitarist :P

To be honest, the rhythm guitarist is more open than the lead guitarist, he just wants parts of the songs to have crazy heavy chugging riffs and/or breakdowns, lol. But aside from that he doesn't care what subgenre we play.

I tried kicking the lead guitarist out from the band once before and he said "Oh no, I'm so sorry, I'll let you guys write all the songs and I swear I won't be a douche anymore" and now he's gone back to his old ways.

So how the hell do I kick him out of the band if he's just going to hang around us for all of eternity? I mean, as stated before, he's my friend, so he'd still be hanging out with us. What am I supposed to tell him?!
#26
tell him that he is hurting the band and you don't think he is serious about playing in a band.

sorry bro but if he refuses to play anything other than a specific genre he isn't serious and he's hurting the band.
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#27
how can the lead play anything remotely good if hes not in time?

And by the looks of it you want to cover some Black Dahlia Murder
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#28
Quote by shinderhizzle84

So how the hell do I kick him out of the band if he's just going to hang around us for all of eternity? I mean, as stated before, he's my friend, so he'd still be hanging out with us. What am I supposed to tell him?!


I'd start with a warning first, I'm going to guess that this issue hasn't been addressed at practice yet.

Say to both of them, "ok guys, it's clear that this band is going nowhere. All I can see is that you guys can never agree on anything, and so we are playing nothing as a result. Now we can get our heads down right now and write 3 covers down that we are going to do together, or we can continue fighting and both of you can leave".

If nobody storms off at this point, inform them that you have to learn and play the song even if you don't like it. This is part of being in a band. Also tell them that it should be something within your skill levels. At this point you pick a song and see how they react. If they play up, remind them about agreeing. Then let the lead guitarist pick a song. Then let the rhythm guitarist pick a song.

See how it goes at the practice after that. If all goes well you now have some songs together and may even enjoy playing songs that you didn't think you would like. After that you can pick more.

HOWEVER, I foresee that lead guitarist will pick an incredibly hard song that even he cannot play (yes hard to imagine). I think he should figure that out himself. He can pick whatever song and see how he goes at next practice.
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#29
It's meant to be fun!

Try recording your sessions and playing them back, if they can't hear the problems in the recordings you have a problem but if they do then they should be able to come up with ideas and might realise they need to work together.

If you have access to it, try recording everything one person at a time to a click track. That will force them to play in time and if they can't do it they aren't good enough to be in any band.
#30
combine all of the genres you guys like and just create like this super-genre with an extremely long name (e.g Melodically Black Technical Doom Thrash Core)

Every song must be over 7 minutes long, with all the chugging breakdowns and random solo's you can handle...yeah
#31
If none of these guys have never played in a band it is to be expected that the timing is off, especially if you don't have a drumming. As for combining breakdowns and Melodic Deathish music, how about Parkway Drive? You should try them they combine breakdowns and melodic leads, and quite fast-sounding licks, but not really hard to play. Some other band that comes to mind is Unearth, who do kind of the same thing but are a lot harder to play. Maybe All That Remains, what your described sounds like Metalcore so you could look at more bands.

Djent also comes to mind, but I think that'll still be a bit out of your league, but you could give Periphery a try.
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#32
SO many bands come to mind.

Protest the Hero
Between the Buried and Me
LoveHateHero
The Fall of Troy
Within the Ruins
I am Abomination
Lower Definition
Iwrestledabearonce

Basically just about any core band worth listening to can fuse guitar solos and breakdowns into on genre. I do it with my band all the time. And just or all those people acting like breakdowns are mindless chugging, take the time to actually listen to some of the better core bands and try to learn the rhythm. August Burns Red comes to mind. Their breakdowns are the hardest parts or their songs to learn (at least for me)
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#34
This is why I never ever play in bands with my friends.

If I were you, I'd ditch them both, say "no hard feelings but it just isn't working." and scout craigslist or whatever for some likeminded musicians.

In my experience, I think it's best just to find people that are into the same style as you are, and then become buddies afterwards.

Seriously, I tried the whole band with my best friends thing and it was a nightmare comparable to your situation. Sure it was a joining of convience but we never got ANYTHING done because everybody was so different in style.

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck.
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#35
Quote by shinderhizzle84
Hey. So I'm the vocalist of this upstarting metal band that I'm starting with two of my best friends, both of whom are guitarists.

As people, we mesh very well together, but as musicians, the two guitarists are so incredibly different in style and playing skill that I'm really at a loss for how to manage this situation.

Here's the most important thing: I'm doing this to have fun with my friends. I don't want to kick either one of them out of the band.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to explain my situation a bit more. So, basically my best friend, who is the rhythm guitarist, only likes breakdowns and shit. His favorite bands are Devil Wears Prada and a band that I showed him called All Shall Perish. Hopefully if you know either of these bands, you can envision what kind of guitar player he wants to be.

My other friend, the lead guitarist, has his own very unique ****ing style that is pretty much completely incomprehensible. The best I can say is that it is a combination of melodic death metal, technical death metal, power metal, thrash metal, neoclassical metal, and even a bit of hair metal. The guy just plays whatever the hell he wants, and most of it is very dissonant and out-of-tempo, making it almost impossible to put any rhythm guitar behind it.

Now here's the problem: no matter how often I preach to them, the two are completely refusing to make a compromise, mainly because they both believe that there is no way to fuse both high pitched melodic and "high-energy" riffing and soloing and shit with breakdowns and chunky low rhythmic riffing.

Is there a specific band or genre that anyone of you can think of that does this, sort of fusing many genres together while still retaining enough of a core element to have sick breakdowns? If I could show them examples of other bands that work with the same type of assets that we have at our disposal, I'm hoping that they'll both become more inspired to work together and not individually.

Any help or advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Sounds like metal to me......

Also, I agree with Alan.
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