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#1
how many times have you seen this scenario.You have a jazz fusion guy,and standard shred metal guy,both real technical players,but no matter how many chops the metal guy has, jazz fusion guy just plays rings around him with equal technique etc....i love and play both styles,but i can' t just help wondrer if it does ring true,when it comes to both schools.I know that no form of music is better than the other,but ability speaking wise i've seen this too much...thoughts?
#3
wat...
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LYZyCdp.gif[/img]


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#4
That's opinion, neither could play better than the other so it all just depends on the preference of the audience.
#7
Quote by NothingRocks
There's no such thing as "better" it's subjective. If you like shredders you like shredders. If you like fusion players you like fusion players.
One of the guitarists could be objectively better though. Like better technique, more comprehensive application of theory, stuff like that. I know that wasn't his point, but whatevs.
#8
I don't know, but jazz fusion guitarists are almost at par with metal guitarist in terms of being egoistic douches.
#9
Yeah amount of skill can easily be compared. Nothing too objective about the difference between a noob and an experienced shredder.
#11
What does the knowledge of the guitarist have to do with the awesomeness that he creates?

More knowledge =/= nicer music
#13
Quote by Zoot Allures
You realise both of those genres suck and you listen to some real stuff



Which totally isn't Grinderman.
#15
Quote by Zoot Allures
You realise both of those genres suck and you listen to some real stuff




[img]http://i.imgur.com/LYZyCdp.gif[/img]


Quote by CrossBack7
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#17
jazz fusion>shred any day of the week. I started playing guitar wanting to play like all those shred guitar players. After learning petrucci and gilbert stuff for 4 years it was awesome but after studying jazz for 2 years theres no doubt those guys have a mastery of the guitar far beyond any sort of technique you can play at 200bpm
#18
the best metal player in the world will still not have nearly as much theory knowledge as the best jazz player in the world.
#19
meh. Blues players (some...) win in my book. I dont care how many notes you can cram into a second or how fancy you can make your phrases. If the feeling doesn't translate it doesn't mean much to me.
#21
Herman Li vs. Paul Masvidal
just because Herman is the first shredder that comes to mind, and I love Dragonforce
sunbather is shit
#22
Around here, the jazz players far surpass the metal musicians in just about everything. But that could be because all the metalheads around here care more about being "metal" than being actual musicians. The jazz musicians know what they're doing and are overall more intelligent with their music, the metal musicians are more about image and insist on being cheesy as hell. Just my experience. You have to take it guitarist by guitarist though. An individual jazz fusion guitarist might be better than a metal guitarist and vice versa.
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#23
I don't think there's anything more banal than guitarists talking about guitarists.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#25
Quote by killboypowerhed
the best metal player in the world will still not have nearly as much theory knowledge as the best jazz player in the world.


Really? Stupidest comment in this thread yet
#27
Thanks for inspiring me to play some Guthrie Govan, TS.
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#28
Quote by GS LEAD 5
John Petrucci.
/thread
+1

Quote by Empty Duck
Really? Stupidest comment in this thread yet
+1 again
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at May 18, 2011,
#29
Quote by GS LEAD 5
John Petrucci.
/thread

JUST to be a dick I have a friend who graduated from MIT and said that from a musician's standpoint John Petrucci is terrible, along with James LaBrie and John Myung. I love Dream Theater though and I'm pretty sure said friend likes them as well.
sunbather is shit
#30
Quote by beefcake122
JUST to be a dick I have a friend who graduated from MIT and said that from a musician's standpoint John Petrucci is terrible, along with James LaBrie and John Myung. I love Dream Theater though and I'm pretty sure said friend likes them as well.

you mean from a technical standpoint?
#31
Quote by Zoot Allures
you mean from a technical standpoint?

yes my bad, I think his words were actually "professional musician"
sunbather is shit
#32
Quote by killboypowerhed

the best metal player in the world will still not have nearly as much theory knowledge as the best jazz player in the world.

Y'know, when guitarists are among the 'best' in the world, genre becomes less and less unimportant to them, they are simply the best 'guitarists'.
The reason they get so good is because they study and master a lot of varying styles and techniques.

What that boils down to is that someone who could be regarded as 'among the best jazz players in the world' can probably also be regarded as 'among the best metal players in the world'.

The very best jazz player and the very best metal player is probably the same guy.
#33
Quote by Zoot Allures
You realise both of those genres suck and you listen to some real stuff




Which is boring as hell.


Listen to whatever the **** you want, dont give a shit about it.
Purple string dampener scrunchy.
#35
If you ask me why you think they are better, I'd say that although both may be playing with great technique and doing lots of notes, the jazz guy is doing more intricate phrases as opposed to runs, and is going different things, like mixing legato and staccato, doing slides, maybe the reverse hammer technique popular in fusion, and changing up the rhythms from doing different kind of tuplets, stuff like that.
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#36
Quote by Xiaoxi
I don't think there's anything more banal than guitarists talking about guitarists.


Perhaps you joined the wrong website?
#37
Quote by primusfan
ugh. jazz guitar is the bane of my existence.


this. in my opinion, guitar doesn't really belong in jazz. piano can comp better, every other instrument can play lead better. it's pretty much unnecessary. pretty much everyone that i know that plays jazz guitar only does it cause they don't play any other instrument, myself included. but if they can play another proficiently enough, they don't play jazz guitar. but that's just my experience.

to answer the question, jazz fusion guitarists generally are objectively more technical lead players, but metal guitarists are much more technical when it comes to rhythm playing. although few jazz fusion guitarists can match the modern tech death guys in terms of technical precision these days.

Quote by Ninja Vampire
Perhaps you joined the wrong website?


no offense Xiaoxi, but why do you hang around here then? not that we don't love your input on threads in the pit, but you don't seem to have much interest in too much guitar based music.
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Last edited by theogonia777 at May 18, 2011,
#38
Quote by theogonia777
this. in my opinion, guitar doesn't really belong in jazz. piano can comp better, every other instrument can play lead better. it's pretty much unnecessary.

With all due respect: this is drivel.


Jazz is not about what instrument you play, without getting too philosophical and pretentious: jazz is a mindset. The main aim of jazz is to take your playing to a new level every time you pick up your chosen instrument(s); you stand on the shoulders of all preceding jazz artists and try and gain an inch. This means that as a jazz artist you should be taking risks, be it through composition, improvising or arrangement. Saying that a certain instrument doesn't "fit" jazz goes totally against this ethos, they only unsuited if laid in the hands of a hack. There are plenty of horn players who are hacks and are just as "unnecessary" in the jazz world but nobody in their right mind would say that horns don't belong. Do you really think great players like Gary Burton care that the vibraphone is somehow "not jazz" as it doesn't fit in a traditional 3-piece? How about Ray Draper on the tuba? Dorothy Ashby on the harp? Do you think that Joe Zawinul worried about messing with huge synthesizers because somehow a grand piano/hammond was somehow "more jazz"? Of course not, they knew that instruments are just tools for getting what's in your head into the heads of others and all that matters is how comfortable you are with said tool.

Specifically relating to guitars: there are plenty of tremendously talented guitar players that have carved careers as all time greats within jazz. They've performed things that would be very difficult to imitate in terms of technique and timbre on other instruments. This is the reason why Miles had such an array of great guitarists passing through his band (Scofield, Stern, Ford etc.)


I admit my definition of jazz is very broad and I don't apologise about that; but I believe you miss out on far too many great musicians if you start considering instruments over musicianship.


(I want to make it clear: I am not claiming all "guitar jazz" is worthwhile, in fact I dislike a large proportion of it but this is not to do with the fact it's played on guitar.)
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#39
^^ Well said.
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