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#1
I searched and surprisingly didn't find anything of relevance.
Just as the title says, why are ex-Nazis jailed? I saw the "boy charged with murdering Neo-Nazi father" thread and thought about the ex-Nazi that got 5 years a while ago. I really don't know much about why they are still jailing ex-Nazis, because at the time they were just following orders. Does it have to do with war crimes or something?
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#3
Because we must get rid of those who know how to really achieve world peace.
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#5
Quote by Momentosis
Because we must get rid of those who know how to really achieve world peace.


> suggesting genocide
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#6
Quote by cgmetallica1981
..., because at the time they were just following orders.

Very good thought, in my opinion.

I think it has something to do with
"We are the good guys, and they're bad, bad, BAD!
We lock 'em up, and that's just how we roll..."

There always has to be a scapegoat.
#8
Quote by thewho65
I've toyed with the idea of writing a play about Nazi-hunters from the 70s.


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as i walk through the chalet of the shadow of death
everything that you've come to expect


#9
Quote by UntilISleep
Apparently every soldier who worked at concentration camps participated in the slaughtering of Jews.


Not every one did, but every soldier who worked at a concentration camp was an accessory to many, many murders.

Quite honestly I do not know how to evaluate the behavior of the lower-level soldiers.
#11
because they committed atrocities and war crimes.

if anyone here thinks that being a Nazi is 'cool' I seriously feel sorry for you.
#12
Quote by thewho65
I've toyed with the idea of writing a play about Nazi-hunters from the 70s.


yeah val kilmer style
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#13
Quote by trueamerican
Not every one did, but every soldier who worked at a concentration camp was an accessory to many, many murders.

Quite honestly I do not know how to evaluate the behavior of the lower-level soldiers.



I wasn't saying it as fact. I also think it's horribly unfair to accuse them all of being accessories to murder. What if they didn't even want to be there? They were kind of forced to.
#14
Well, I don't think any old Nazi should be jailed, but those who actively aided the Holocaust definitely should.

For example, take any old murderer. Let's call him Bob. Now Bob has evaded arrest for a single murder for 30-odd years, committing no other crime since then.

Now, Bob has foolishly been seen by law enforcement officers at a local convenience town in Bum****, Nowhere. He was arrested and tried for murder, receiving his full sentence.

Sounds reasonable, right?

Well, it's basically the same.
#18
There is a difference between Neo-Nazi and ex- Nazi

Neo-Nazi is someone who still attempts to enforce Nazi law or believe in it now a days. If they were arrested it was for being a general asshole and for a crime they committed for their beliefs, assult, murder etc.


Ex-Nazi is someone who was part of Hitlers Germany, they would be jailed for their crimes committed against people, or for avoiding prosecution if its more modern times. it was 70 years ago.
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#19
Usually they just lock up the ex-nazi's who had high-ranking positions because they were the ones who gave the orders to mass-murder. Sounds quite fair to me.

But if you mean that they're actually locking up ex-footsoldiers and stuff then yeah, it's pretty retarded and unfair.
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#20
Quote by thewho65
I said a play about Nazi-hunters, not Brad Pitt vs. the backs of peoples' heads.



What about Tom Cruise vs his missing eye
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#21
I hate the 'just following orders' argument. If someone ordered you to massacre a village of civilians, would you just do it? People who 'followed orders' and perpetrated the Holocaust represent all that is worst and most disgusting about humanity. Himmler never killed anyone in his life. How is it that he is reviled, but members of the Einsatzgruppen are absolved because they decided to be obedient? It is such a pathetic defense.
#22
Quote by Pagan-Pie
I hate the 'just following orders' argument. If someone ordered you to massacre a village of civilians, would you just do it? People who 'followed orders' and perpetrated the Holocaust represent all that is worst and most disgusting about humanity. Himmler never killed anyone in his life. How is it that he is reviled, but members of the Einsatzgruppen are absolved because they decided to be obedient? It is such a pathetic defense.



If you didn't, you would have been killed yourself.
And don't say "Oh I would let myself be killed to spare them" because you wouldn't.
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#23
Quote by Pagan-Pie
I hate the 'just following orders' argument. If someone ordered you to massacre a village of civilians, would you just do it? People who 'followed orders' and perpetrated the Holocaust represent all that is worst and most disgusting about humanity. Himmler never killed anyone in his life. How is it that he is reviled, but members of the Einsatzgruppen are absolved because they decided to be obedient? It is such a pathetic defense.


Way to sound like a white knight out there. Look up Stanley Milgram's experiment. Everyone likes to think they would be the guy who spoke out and made change but chances are, you would have probably done the same in Nazi Germany.

tldr; Stanley Milgram /thread.
#24
Quote by skylerjames13
If you didn't, you would have been killed yourself.
And don't say "Oh I would let myself be killed to spare them" because you wouldn't.



Really? According to what evidence? The Einsatzgruppen were volunteer forces.

And you can't tell me what I would or wouldn't do.
#25
Quote by Pagan-Pie
I hate the 'just following orders' argument. If someone ordered you to massacre a village of civilians, would you just do it? People who 'followed orders' and perpetrated the Holocaust represent all that is worst and most disgusting about humanity. Himmler never killed anyone in his life. How is it that he is reviled, but members of the Einsatzgruppen are absolved because they decided to be obedient? It is such a pathetic defense.

+1

At worst they consciously committed atrocities, at best they simply followed orders to commit atrocities like mindless automatons.
#26
Quote by Zoot Allures
Because people suck. If you're going to jail ex nazis then jail every bomber pilot who participated in the bombing of berlin too.

There's a huge difference between fighting in a war, and torturing people.
Not saying that all Nazi's tortured people, but I really doubt the ones getting arrested now just patrolled streets. I really don't think we go "omg a Nazi! Arrest him!" I think we actually go "omg a Nazi, let's check out his history because it's possible he's guilt of warcrimes, and if so, we'll arrest him, and if not, he can go free!"
#27
Quote by Myxomatosis.266
Way to sound like a white knight out there. Look up Stanley Milgram's experiment. Everyone likes to think they would be the guy who spoke out and made change but chances are, you would have probably done the same in Nazi Germany.

tldr; Stanley Milgram /thread.


I'm a white knight? You're defending these people:

#28
Quote by Pagan-Pie
I'm a white knight? You're defending these people:



I am not saying what they did was morally right, the actions they performed were terrible. However, there was nothing inherently evil about the people, it was the culture and their environment. This was psych 101 crap, Milgram, Abu Ghraib and the Stanford Prison experiment were all examples of how otherwise normal people could perform terrible actions.
#29
Quote by Myxomatosis.266
Stanley Milgram /thread.


Pretty much.

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#30
Quote by Sinister Waffle
There is a difference between Neo-Nazi and ex- Nazi

Neo-Nazi is someone who still attempts to enforce Nazi law or believe in it now a days. If they were arrested it was for being a general asshole and for a crime they committed for their beliefs, assult, murder etc.


Ex-Nazi is someone who was part of Hitlers Germany, they would be jailed for their crimes committed against people, or for avoiding prosecution if its more modern times. it was 70 years ago.

I know the difference between the two, its just that the word "Nazi" reminded me of the ex-Nazi getting jailed.
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#31
Quote by Pagan-Pie
Really? According to what evidence? The Einsatzgruppen were volunteer forces.

And you can't tell me what I would or wouldn't do.


You would say right now, that you wouldn't kill the village and you'd sacrifice yourself, etc.
But actually being put into the situation, you'd plead for your life, and you'd follow orders.
And okay, they volunteered. My bad. Most German soldiers only did it because they didn't want to be killed.
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#32
Lol at everyone saying Nazi war criminals were "just a product of heir environment". Wermacht soldiers I agree with you, but then, they aren't prosecuted. People like Mengele, or as a less extreme example, SS troopers who terrorised Jews, Romani, Gays etc. can not be absolved. Only a sick person would do such stuff of their own free will (and no, there was no requirement to torture/murder those people by the government. Even doing nothing is fine).

And if you bring up Allied war criminals, yes, I agree, they should be prosecuted too. But none were as bad as the Nazis were.

Also, do you also think that mafia hitmen or schizophrenic murderers should be absolved too? They kill people under orders too.
Last edited by jimmyled at May 18, 2011,
#33
Quote by Pagan-Pie
I'm a white knight? You're defending these people:


Congratulations, you just failed introductory psychology.

Every study on compliance done since 1950 has demonstrated that, in basically every circumstance, the vast majority of people will follow any order given by someone who appears to be in charge. Stanley Milgram demonstrated that, with little to no persuasion, a man in a lab coat could make the typical person electrocute another human being to death for answering trivia questions incorrectly. The only repercussion for not doing so would be... oh right, nothing.

So you're the white knight here, denying 60+ years of peer reviewed research to condemn actions that, had you been in the same situation, statistics demonstrate you would have performed.

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#34
Quote by Myxomatosis.266
I am not saying what they did was morally right, the actions they performed were terrible. However, there was nothing inherently evil about the people, it was the culture and their environment.



So everyone was just programmed to murder Jews? We have that little free will. I don't really care about the artifice of psychological experiment, I care about what really happened in real life situations.

The historian J. M. Glass wrote an article on a related topic, and the abstract reads thusly:

"This essay takes issue with what is known as the "indifference" hypothesis regarding the murderof Jews during the Holocaust. The Germans' fear of typhus,their perception of the Jew as poisonous, biological matter,"life unworthy of life,"created a group state of mind in which many individual Germans, particularly those in the professions, enthusiastically participated in the logistics, machinery, ideology and legitimation of mass murder."

Against the Indifference Hypothesis: The Holocaust and the Enthusiasts for Murder (1997)

EDIT: None of you appear to know anything about history. The holocaust wasn't just the masterplan of a group of Nazi leaders and camp commandants. It was a movement, which required mass participation a vast bureaucracy of civilians. And no one has yet provided evidence suggesting that any SS member was threatened or killed for not wanting to murder Jews. In fact the 'final solution' was a reaction of the reluctance of members of the Einsatzgruppen to shoot so many women and children for no reason.
Last edited by Pagan-Pie at May 18, 2011,
#35
Quote by jimmyled
And if you bring up Allied war criminals, yes, I agree, they should be prosecuted too. But none were as bad as the Nazis were.


Here's some reading material for you. The Allies were pretty despicable as well.

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#37
Plenty of people resisted fascism in Germany, France, Italy, and anywhere else it sprung up. Saying with certainty "you would've done the same thing and thus have no right to condemn, based on such and such study" is bullshit.

Making excuses for those who just "followed orders" is doing a massive disservice to those who told the people giving those orders to go **** themselves, putting themselves at tremendous personal risk in the process.

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Last edited by blackflag49 at May 18, 2011,
#38
In a nation where anti Semitism was rife and under a government which since 1933 had actively pursued an active and public discrimination and dehumanisation of the Jewish people, the people were bought up to see them as different and as the reason for all of the issues facing the German people.

Its not like there was an open liberal movement to support the Jews in the run up to the holocaust in Germany, combine that with the fanatical nature of many of those directly involved in the massacres, such as the SS and those who graduated through the Hitler youth, combined with the results of research such as Milgram isnt surprising as to what they were willing to do.

Add to that the fear that if you didnt actively volunteer you would be sent to the Eastern front or your family could/would be killed ( particularly for the slavic volunteers ).

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#39
Quote by jimmyled
Lol at everyone saying Nazi war criminals were "just a product of heir environment". Wermacht soldiers I agree with you, but then, they aren't prosecuted. People like Mengele, or as a less extreme example, SS troopers who terrorised Jews, Romani, Gays etc. can not be absolved. Only a sick person would do such stuff of their own free will (and no, there was no requirement to torture/murder those people by the government. Even doing nothing is fine).

And if you bring up Allied war criminals, yes, I agree, they should be prosecuted too. But none were as bad as the Nazis were.


Also, do you also think that mafia hitmen or schizophrenic murderers should be absolved too? They kill people under orders too.

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#40
Quote by Das_Skittles
Here's some reading material for you. The Allies were pretty despicable as well.

So you're saying the Allies exterminated people based on their race, sexual orientation, political orientation or physical ability?

Because that's what I understand from your self righteous posts.

Not saying you're stupid, conceited or anything, mind you, just that your posts seem very arrogant.

I'm not counting the Soviets, just so you know. They were terrible too (though still, not as much).

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Again, I'm not saying it was OK, far from it, I think it's a massive double standard on the US's side, but it's still not the same.
Last edited by jimmyled at May 18, 2011,
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