Poll: Do you agree with Obama
Poll Options
View poll results: Do you agree with Obama
Yes
38 56%
No
14 21%
Indifferent
6 9%
Why should I care, the world's ending tommorrow
10 15%
Voters: 68.
Page 1 of 4
#1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/19/israel-borders-obama-middle-east-speech_n_864306.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Caim%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%7C64364

Quote by Article
In his speech, Obama endorsed the Palestinian position on the borders of their future state, saying it should be based on Israel's lines before the 1967 Mideast war. Israel captured the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza Strip in the fighting, and the Palestinians claim those areas for their state.


For the people unfamiliar with Israel's border history, a map:



Basically, Obama wants Israel to return to it's borders as shown in the third panel. Do you agree with Obama? Disagree? Indifferent?

Also, if this has already been posted, I'll delete it.
#2
Surprise surprise, another US president failing to engage with the root problems of Palestine - namely: massive western funding of Israeli arms industries, the brilliant PR work of the Western media in implicitly associating criticism of the state of Israel with antisemitism, the blockade and mass genocide of the Palestinian people, etc etc etc.

I tend to take an independent class position when it comes to the Middle East crisis - f*ck what Obama wants, he isn't motivated by the interests of the Palestinian people, he (and the arms dealers which are hugely influential within government) simply want to preserve the status quo. The working classes of both Israel and Palestine share a common opponent in the elites of both of their countries, and those of the West. Ultimately, the only thing which will be able to end the conflict forced upon both Israeli and Palestinian citizens by an elite is the recognition of class solidarity between all workers in those countries.
Last edited by Kumanji at May 20, 2011,
#3
I voted yes just to give the poll some pro-Palestine support. I think Obama is dealing with it wrong, and I also think Palestine should get all of their land back, although that's unrealistic at this point.
#4
There's only one solution to this problem:


If those Palestinians don't want to obey, we must make them.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#5
Quote by Kumanji

I tend to take an independent class position when it comes to the Middle East crisis - f*ck what Obama wants, the working classes of both Israel and Palestine share a common opponent in the elites of both of their countries, and those of the West. Ultimately, the only thing which will be able to end the conflict forced upon both Israeli and Palestinian citizens by an elite is the recognition of class solidarity between all workers in those countries.


Yeah, but only when it comes to the Middle East crisis
#6
Quote by Neo Evil11
There's only one solution to this problem:


If those Palestinians don't want to obey, we must make them.


Dude..not cool. Even for an internet forum. **** off.

OT: I live in Israel, and I agree with alot of the stuff Obama stated in his speech.
He finally said he recognizes that it should be a jewish state. Now were making progress.
I am all for returning to the '67 borders.
Listens to Jazz

Quote by Local666Union
each time I piss in the dark I'm afraid that some wierd plant is going to eat my dick



#7
Quote by trueamerican
Yeah, but only when it comes to the Middle East crisis

Oh alright, maybe on one or two other issues too :P:

EDIT: Auschwitz gate is ironic, the whole West Bank has been transformed into a giant concentration camp.
#8
Quote by Joey-Tribiani
Dude..not cool. Even for an internet forum. **** off.

OT: I live in Israel, and I agree with alot of the stuff Obama stated in his speech.
He finally said he recognizes that it should be a jewish state. Now were making progress.
I am all for returning to the '67 borders.


It shouldn't be a Jewish state. Theocracies are bullshit. And for all intents and purposes, it isn't. Yeah, there are a few laws that favor Jews or make it easier for Jews, but it's not really a big deal.
#9
Quote by Kumanji
Surprise surprise, another US president failing to engage with the root problems of Palestine - namely: massive western funding of Israeli arms industries, the brilliant PR work of the Western media in implicitly associating criticism of the state of Israel with antisemitism, the blockade and mass genocide of the Palestinian people, etc etc etc.

I tend to take an independent class position when it comes to the Middle East crisis - f*ck what Obama wants, he isn't motivated by the interests of the Palestinian people, he (and the arms dealers which are hugely influential within government) simply want to preserve the status quo. The working classes of both Israel and Palestine share a common opponent in the elites of both of their countries, and those of the West. Ultimately, the only thing which will be able to end the conflict forced upon both Israeli and Palestinian citizens by an elite is the recognition of class solidarity between all workers in those countries.

Bullshit. The conflict is not forced upon the workers. They are the conflict.
It is their bloodshed which drives them to go on with the killings of the other. As far as studies show, there is no hate towards the elite from the workers.
#10
Quote by trueamerican
It shouldn't be a Jewish state. Theocracies are bullshit. And for all intents and purposes, it isn't. Yeah, there are a few laws that favor Jews or make it easier for Jews, but it's not really a big deal.


Ya well that just like your opinion man.jpg
Listens to Jazz

Quote by Local666Union
each time I piss in the dark I'm afraid that some wierd plant is going to eat my dick



#11
Quote by The_Casinator
Bullshit. The conflict is not forced upon the workers. They are the conflict.
It is their bloodshed which drives them to go on with the killings of the other. As far as studies show, there is no hate towards the elite from the workers.

Who does this conflict benefit?

And many studies have shown that most people in both countries want peace! Do you honestly think that, given a choice not at gunpoint, people on both sides of the border would not leap at the chance to live peacefully? http://jewishvoices.squarespace.com/israelipeace/

It's a well known fact that Israeli government, due to its awful political system, is systemically biased towards extremism - a situation entirely supported and encouraged by Western governments.
Last edited by Kumanji at May 20, 2011,
#12
Quote by Kumanji
Surprise surprise, another US president failing to engage with the root problems of Palestine - namely: massive western funding of Israeli arms industries, the brilliant PR work of the Western media in implicitly associating criticism of the state of Israel with antisemitism, the blockade and mass genocide of the Palestinian people, etc etc etc.

I tend to take an independent class position when it comes to the Middle East crisis - f*ck what Obama wants, he isn't motivated by the interests of the Palestinian people, he (and the arms dealers which are hugely influential within government) simply want to preserve the status quo. The working classes of both Israel and Palestine share a common opponent in the elites of both of their countries, and those of the West. Ultimately, the only thing which will be able to end the conflict forced upon both Israeli and Palestinian citizens by an elite is the recognition of class solidarity between all workers in those countries.


What in God's name did I just read...?
I shall grant you three wishes.

None of which will work.


Does the above post enrage, offend or confuse you?

Good.


I like my women how I like my guitars. Curvy and like it when I finger them.
#14
Quote by Kumanji
Who does this conflict benefit?

And many studies have shown that most people in both countries want peace! Do you honestly think that, given a choice not at gunpoint, people on both sides of the border would not leap at the chance to live peacefully? http://jewishvoices.squarespace.com/israelipeace/

I'm not saying that the majority doesn't want peace. Of course they do. It's a few groups of extremists who are fighting, but those groups are independent cells. They might have fundings, but that is likely to be just a couple of rich people. The conflict benefits nobody, it's just a bunch of stubborn people fighting.
Factories and villas get destroyed as well, you know.
#15
Quote by trueamerican
He's an idiot



Fixed.
I shall grant you three wishes.

None of which will work.


Does the above post enrage, offend or confuse you?

Good.


I like my women how I like my guitars. Curvy and like it when I finger them.
#16
Not really paying much attention to this. Probably won't. So, I don't have an opinion. That is all
My God, it's full of stars!
#17
Quote by trueamerican
It shouldn't be a Jewish state. Theocracies are bullshit. And for all intents and purposes, it isn't. Yeah, there are a few laws that favor Jews or make it easier for Jews, but it's not really a big deal.

What if that's what the population want?
Quote by Vornik
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to put it, along with your other advice, into a book, the pages of which I will then use to wipe my ass.
#18
Quote by The_Casinator
I'm not saying that the majority doesn't want peace. Of course they do. It's a few groups of extremists who are fighting, but those groups are independent cells. They might have fundings, but that is likely to be just a couple of rich people. The conflict benefits nobody, it's just a bunch of stubborn people fighting.
Factories and villas get destroyed as well, you know.

Apart from the hugely lucrative arms dealers, both in Israel and in the West, who contribute to maintaining the world's fourth largest army on constant combat readiness, the oil companies who can raise prices and benefit from 'regional instability'...

Quote by BeefWellington
Fixed.

An actual coherent argument would be nice
#19
I'm a Palestinian,and as such I have to say that the borders are only a tiny piece of a massive puzzle. For example, I COULD support a proposal if and only if the right of return is given to Palestinians and an independent international tribunal is set up to rule on any land disputes caused by this judging purely based on the true ownership of the land (not shocking using ownership to judge who should own the land) and not based on who is occupying it at the moment. Additionally, any war crimes on both sides would have to be taken into account (which unfortunately would be a massive stumbling block since both sides' chief negotiators would be implicated in any such investigation). Plus, any and all illegal settlements must be entirely dismantled, and repeating most significantly the right of return MUST be granted providing an individual can provide proof of land ownership regardless of whether the individual is of Israeli or Palestinian descent and regardless of what side of the border their land is found. and if not return at least the right to do with it as they see fit. Also, I can not support a proposition that within its tennets outlines a form of religious discrimination on either side. Israelis do have to face they are not a purely Jewish population. They have a growing population of Arab-Israelis of Muslim descent (20% at the moment) and according to the Goldstone report published by the UN's rapporteur special on Palestine and Israel there is sever religious discrimination present in Israel. If anyone would like to dispute that then they are welcome to dispute the impartiality of the report.
#20
Quote by BeefWellington
Fixed.



Oh wow, that was a compelling and intelligent rebuttal.


OT: I think what Obama has said is something of a step in the right direction. I agree with elements of what Kumanji said but situations like this can only be solved through a gradual process and a radically socialist solution can only complicate matters. In other words, end the internationally illegal behaviour, state-sanctioned terrorism and fundamentalist Zionism and we can work from there.
#21
Kinda contradicts how the US has been supporting Israel and going out of their way to do so recently...

Quote by Pagan-Pie
Oh wow, that was a compelling and intelligent buttocks I love mens buttocks.

OLOLOLOL
Quote by Vornik
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to put it, along with your other advice, into a book, the pages of which I will then use to wipe my ass.
#22
Quote by dann_blood
What if that's what the population want?


I don't particularly care what the majority wants. A characteristic of a tyrannical society is one that is unfair to minorities. And if there is a minority that doesn't want it, then any laws that advance Jewish interests over others is unfair to them.

Also, there are only about 6 million Jews in Israel. They aren't the majority yet, as far as I know. And I don't know why any Israeli Christians or Muslims would want it to be a Jewish state.
#23
Quote by dann_blood
OLOLOLOL



What an embarrassing Freudian slip on my part
#24
Quote by Pagan-Pie
What an embarrassing Freudian dick on my part


Is there something you'd like to tell us?
#25
Quote by trueamerican
I don't particularly care what the majority wants. A characteristic of a tyrannical society is one that is unfair to minorities. And if there is a minority that doesn't want it, then any laws that advance Jewish interests over others is unfair to them.

Iiiinteresting.
Quote by Vornik
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to put it, along with your other advice, into a book, the pages of which I will then use to wipe my ass.
#26
Quote by dann_blood
Iiiinteresting.


Have I ever said that Israel does not oppress the Palestinians?
#27
Quote by adodin
I'm a Palestinian,and as such I have to say that the borders are only a tiny piece of a massive puzzle. For example, I COULD support a proposal if and only if the right of return is given to Palestinians and an independent international tribunal is set up to rule on any land disputes caused by this judging purely based on the true ownership of the land (not shocking using ownership to judge who should own the land) and not based on who is occupying it at the moment. Additionally, any war crimes on both sides would have to be taken into account (which unfortunately would be a massive stumbling block since both sides' chief negotiators would be implicated in any such investigation). Plus, any and all illegal settlements must be entirely dismantled, and repeating most significantly the right of return MUST be granted providing an individual can provide proof of land ownership regardless of whether the individual is of Israeli or Palestinian descent and regardless of what side of the border their land is found. and if not return at least the right to do with it as they see fit. Also, I can not support a proposition that within its tennets outlines a form of religious discrimination on either side. Israelis do have to face they are not a purely Jewish population. They have a growing population of Arab-Israelis of Muslim descent (20% at the moment) and according to the Goldstone report published by the UN's rapporteur special on Palestine and Israel there is sever religious discrimination present in Israel. If anyone would like to dispute that then they are welcome to dispute the impartiality of the report.



This is a very nice explanation from the Palestinian side... Its well-thought out, needs to define right of return for those not versed in the conflict...


CAN YOU PUT IT INTO DAMN PARAGRAPH FORM, OR BULLETED LIST? Jesus... Wall-Of-Text...
#28
Quote by Kumanji
Apart from the hugely lucrative arms dealers, both in Israel and in the West, who contribute to maintaining the world's fourth largest army on constant combat readiness, the oil companies who can raise prices and benefit from 'regional instability'...

Like I said, some of the elite. The main oiling regions are not in Palestina or Israel. The arms dealers are mostly from Russia or other nearby countries, so it's not even the local elite who are benefitting. Rebelling against those who are not responsible isn't really helping anything.
#29
Yes, I think it's a step forward that the US is finally willing to do something to show they won't always unconditionally support Israel in ridiculous scenarios. But it seems like the Palestinian and Israeli leaders want nothing to do with peace. The Fatah-Hamas reconciliation has pretty much precluded UN recognition of a Palestinian state, and every time some terrorist lobs a grenade at Israel they respond by eradicating a couple dozen blocks of Palestine. Though I can't imagine that your average Palestinian or Israeli citizen really harbors much hate for the other so hopefully a relative peace is possible.

Quote by trueamerican
He's a socialist.

You know the SNL digital short "Great Day" at the end when Bill Hader goes "He's on drugs"? That's the exact tone of voice I'm picturing here.
#30
Quote by L2112Lif
This is a very nice explanation from the Palestinian side... Its well-thought out, needs to define right of return for those not versed in the conflict...


CAN YOU PUT IT INTO DAMN PARAGRAPH FORM, OR BULLETED LIST? Jesus... Wall-Of-Text...



Quote by adodin
I'm a Palestinian,and as such I have to say that the borders are only a tiny piece of a massive puzzle. For example, I COULD support a proposal if and only if the right of return is given to Palestinians and an independent international tribunal is set up to rule on any land disputes caused by this judging purely based on the true ownership of the land (not shocking using ownership to judge who should own the land) and not based on who is occupying it at the moment.

Additionally, any war crimes on both sides would have to be taken into account (which unfortunately would be a massive stumbling block since both sides' chief negotiators would be implicated in any such investigation).

Plus, any and all illegal settlements must be entirely dismantled, and repeating most significantly the right of return MUST be granted providing an individual can provide proof of land ownership regardless of whether the individual is of Israeli or Palestinian descent and regardless of what side of the border their land is found. and if not return at least the right to do with it as they see fit.

Also, I can not support a proposition that within its tennets outlines a form of religious discrimination on either side. Israelis do have to face they are not a purely Jewish population. They have a growing population of Arab-Israelis of Muslim descent (20% at the moment) and according to the Goldstone report published by the UN's rapporteur special on Palestine and Israel there is sever religious discrimination present in Israel.

If anyone would like to dispute that then they are welcome to dispute the impartiality of the report.



fixed
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#32
I disagree with Obama.
You can't really believe that this step would end up the disagreement between Israel and the Arabs. This is much more complicated...
Israel has left Gush-Katif in hope for ending up the disagreement. But it didnt really work. Same will be here...
Last edited by guitar-tin at May 21, 2011,
#33
Haters gon hate.
Quote by tattyreagh
He's the hero The Pit deserves but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. GbAdimDb5m7.


Free Jani92jani

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#34
Quote by Kumanji
Surprise surprise, another US president failing to engage with the root problems of Palestine - namely: massive western funding of Israeli arms industries, the brilliant PR work of the Western media in implicitly associating criticism of the state of Israel with antisemitism, the blockade and mass genocide of the Palestinian people, etc etc etc.

I tend to take an independent class position when it comes to the Middle East crisis - f*ck what Obama wants, he isn't motivated by the interests of the Palestinian people, he (and the arms dealers which are hugely influential within government) simply want to preserve the status quo. The working classes of both Israel and Palestine share a common opponent in the elites of both of their countries, and those of the West. Ultimately, the only thing which will be able to end the conflict forced upon both Israeli and Palestinian citizens by an elite is the recognition of class solidarity between all workers in those countries.


I feel like you just lifted this from some obscure Lenin speech, only substituting "Israeli" and "Palestinian" where appropriate.
#35
Quote by blackthought
I feel like you just lifted this from some obscure Lenin speech, only substituting "Israeli" and "Palestinian" where appropriate.


Not from Lenin.... And Obama and a few other choice words. Kumanji just looks for opportunities to spew his socialist diatribe.
#36
Quote by trueamerican
Not from Lenin.... And Obama and a few other choice words. Kumanji just looks for opportunities to spew his socialist diatribe.


Oh, I know it's not actually Lenin. It's just, like, a perfect encapsulation of Marxist thought. As if every single large-scale conflict in human history boiled down to economics.
#37
Like I answered on the poll, it's the end of the world and the last thing I want to give a shit about is two countries fighting over one land each saying how it is rightfully theirs.

Damn attention *****s...
#38
If anyone ever solves this i'd be suprised. This reminds me of a magma pit; molten stone will never harden into anything, forever burning all that touch it.
Quote by Pagan_Poetry
Sadly this is Ultimate-guitar, not Simple-guitar. We can't help you.


#39
I voted no. Until Obama starts cutting military aid to Israel, or properly addresses the issue some other way, I don't feel as though he's going far enough.
#40
Quote by phlip999






A state called palestine never existed. The land belonged to the Ottoman Empire before being taken by the brits.

Also, the 1946 map in the picture is mostly bs, seeing as there was no Palestinian or Jewish land in 46, it was all british territory, with settlements mostly being small city's exlcuding Jerusalem, Haifa, Acres and Tel Aviv.

The rest of the maps are correct (sort of). In 67 the west bank belonged to Jordan, and Gaza belonged to Egypt.

But why should we be historicaly correct?
<Omri> I love trannys too..
Last edited by Hells_Bell at May 21, 2011,
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