After the return of ProgBass and I, we have been almost non-stop working on music. Prog presented this song to me about a week and a half ago and it is now complete!

Both of us are proud of this song for many reasons, but we want to know what you guys think! And yes, we will be recording this eventually AND using it in our band.

There is no Improv Sax Solo, sadly. Neither of us could come up with anything, so we'll leave that up to the saxophonist that we hire when we record it.

C4C, of course. Possibly from both of us.


And lastly, enjoy!

Great work on this fershure!

I like the use of 5/4 (or 5/8? That was the pulse I felt, but that's just me being a nitpicking douche) throughout, not a time signature I could ever figure out how to use effectively as the 'main' time sig. I'm always amazed at how full your work sounds, even in MIDI. Compared to some of your other work, though, I had a hard time distinguishing any melody, do you plan to have vocals?

Other than that, I think anyone would be hard pressed to present a legitimate criticism outside of personal tastes. I look forward to more from the two of you!

C4C? Link
Intro: This is quite a cool little texture you have going on, I like the changes, makes a lot of sense harmonically while still keeping it interesting.

I don't really agree with the note choice at 29 for that one lead, it sounds off, but it's not a big deal.

Verse 1 continued-Transition: I love that transitional bit, the bells sound really cool against that texture laid down by the rest of the band.

Solo: This is quite a cool little solo, but I think it would greatly benefit from a little delay.

Improv sax solo: I obviously can't comment on the solo since it's not written yet, but that chord progression sounds like it'll be cool as shit. I've always believed a solo can only be as good as the progression underneath it. Interesting harmonic background makes for interesting melodic foreground. I look forward to hearing this.

124, the clean guitar reminds me of some Frank Zappa song. Can't remember which, but it sounds like something of his. The rhythm in particular. Oh yeah, I remember, it's just this random bass part in Inca Roads. Wow, I ramble. Back to the song.

I like the soundscape you have going on in the second verse. Sounds quite nice.

I have a bit of a problem with the buildup at 169, a lot of the notes don't mesh so well. I know this is prog and all, but it just kind of turns into a muddle at some point. Maybe that's what you were going for.

Also, that wasn't so much of a release for all that tension you had building up. That's my main complaint about the song, really, it's a whole lot of buildup with no real release, no section where it gets big and loud enough to REALLY call your attention to the piece and make you think "What an amazing climax!". If I were in your position and I had just finished something like this, though, I would have no desire at all to change anything, especially that drastically, so do what you wish, of course.

I actually also just recently finished a collab with one of my friends, "Standing Before the Precipice" in my sig, do you think you could take a look at it? Thanks!
@Guitar: Thanks for the kind words! Our next song will have a more straightforward melody; I demand it! This one doesn't cause both of us were having a hard time making one. The little solo was my attempt at a melody that didn't work out

And the reason it feels like 5/8 is because it IS 5/8. But when I changed it from pentuplets in 4/4 to eighths in 5/4 I couldn't really lower the time sig more, y'know?

@Tarbosh: Thank man! About the release, that was my main qualm with it when Prog made the outro. The next song on the album (or, rather, the segue between the songs) will be the release but we can't write that on GP. It'll be on the EP/LP for sure though.

I think the notes at 29 sound fine, personally. I'll talk to Prog about it though and see what he says. 169 is supposed to sound very busy so it can build up that giant amount of tension and then an orgasmic release later.

The delay idea is a good one... will be doing that

We'll get to y'all's crits soon
As far as the ending is concerned, I wanted there to be a huge buildup with a lot of stuff going on. Throughout the piece, you would get hints at it, but this was the moment where everything explodes. Unfortunately, you can't get that with midi, but the recording will have a bunch of noise and a lot more stuff going on and at the complete end of it, some ambience to take us to the next track.
Intro sounds alot like... "Intro".

It follows the same idea I suppose, so thats why they're similar. Or is that the part from "Intro", and it transitions into this song from the end?

Tension builds well, and I like how you use the 15/8 triplets to create a straight 8th feel with Four pick-up notes. It transitions well, and I like the slight break thats in 19-20 and it's repeats.

At 25, the Guitar (Right) sounds odd, although I understand the phrasing is supposed to be as such. If you focus on the part as a whole it makes alot more sense, but I can't help but focus on the guitars now.

29 with the lead guitar removes most of the previous "Off" feeling. Transition to 33 is done well, and reminds me of AAL. Bass here is great, and the Djent guitar is groovy and builds well. I liked the slight key change at 52, adds alot of tension.

Melody/Solo is great, and the accidentals in it add great feel and resolve when you go back into the dominant key. The following section is awesome, great tension build and sound suspension.

*Please insert improvised Saxophone Solo*

Backing is good, and there could be some really good stuff over this. Could it be a Bass Clarinet solo instead? I would gladly do it.

FULL POWAH! Its essentially the same as 25, but for some reason it doesn't seem to be as odd, probably because the guitar is harmonized in Octaves rather than intervals larger than an octave.

Build down is very good, and Verse II has a great feel to it. I wish you would use a practical tuning so I didn't have to wander through the music score through all the intervals to find out what damn chord your using...

Seems like suspended and Major 7th/9th/nth chords with modulation. Thats just speculation though.

Very good section, and the Djent that follows is also very good. Chorus II has a very AAL sound to me, which is a good thing. If you can sound like AAL, you're doing something right.

Tremolo picking stuff was good, although I also really like the bass line and the Left Guitar. I see you're using a fingered bass for the tremolo picking, and Im wondering if its supposed to be picked or fingered. Obviously its much easier to pick it than finger tremolo, but Im just wondering. Cool section though.

Great song, very awesome.
You know a song is good when a gtr pro tab has you grooving along with it

I want to hear this when it's recorded! My crit is for you not to take anyones advice and stick to what you/progbass are doing!
Dig a tunnel of light through ignorant walls
I bloody love this. Pretend I went through it, picked out everything you did, and said I loved whatever it was.

The only criticism I really have is that I wish more had been done with the buildup of tension. It's quite good as it is, but I think you could go further with it, it doesn't have as satisfying a climax as I'd like. It feels like it's building up to something, but stops just before getting there.

What I'd imagine working is having that alternating note motif come back, and having multiple instruments gradually starting to play variations of that motif, gradually building it up until everything is playing some variation of it.

Maybe all the variations would harmonise to form a bunch of dissonant chords in desperate need of resolution. Or maybe they'd weave in and out of one another, gradually ascending towards a climax. Something like that.

I think that'd have more of a feeling of resolution, since that motif has been present throughout the whole piece. And it'd be more unified, right now I don't think the outro has the feeling of a climax because so many completely different things are going on at once.

Or maybe it doesn't fit into your idea of the piece at all. It's an idea, anyway.

Also - and this is barely a criticism - I've noticed a lot of your pieces start the same way. Clean guitar arpeggios, usually straight 8th notes, playing a jazzy chord, over which riffs, melodies and rhythms gradually appear. It's always very effective, but I'd love to see you try to open a piece in a more dramatic way.

Overall, it's brilliant, there were just those two things I thought I should point out.

I love the textures and soundscapery behind everything, and the hugely rhythmically interesting riffing, and that alternating note motif - it's simple, but really distinctive and easy to work into 100 different contexts. The whole thing is evocative of nature imo, and makes me imagine forests and streams. 10/10
this is great and impressive and it shows your musical knowledge...
i had fun listening to it...i liked the orchestration most of all...
still skipped some parts though
maybe it's the midi sound that got me bored at some parts...
things always change a little when recording, so i really like to hear this recorded...good luck with finding the right sax player!

C4C? https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1455807
Last edited by tiammetadeth at Jun 28, 2011,
Intro: Very nice and ambient, that tuning looks pretty interesting as well. Do you use custom gauge strings for that? I also like the change in pulse in the 15/8 bar.

Change: Nice build up, I like the accents on the distorted guitar. Just an idea to catch the listener off guard a little, reverse the approach that the rhythm guitar is playing. As in use the rhythm played in the 3rd and 4th bar of the phrase in the 1st and 2nd the next time it's played and then the 1st and 2nd bar rhythm in the 2nd 3rd and 4th bar of the phrase. I also like the simplicity of the drums.

Verse I: Excellent change in accents/rhythm here. The addition of the choir and lead lines in the 2nd half really made that part. Like a mini-climax for what is to come.

Verse I (Cont.): Nice change in timbre. Slap bass is very refreshing to hear in Progressive Music (IMO, Prog is starting to get really stale). That's why it is a really great part.

Transition: Nice change in timbre with the Vibes, very good. Sorry I didn't notice it earlier.

Melody/Solo: Excellent change in timbre once again. The solo sounded rather blocky to me. I'm probably not the best person to ask about this sort of thing but my teacher told me that a good solo is one that doesn't always land on the beat of the next bar (Or that the phrasing doesn't finish exactly at the end of each bar). Tornado of Souls by Megadeth is a great example (The first half of the solo does what I described above, the second half is pretty blocky due to the shred).

Chorus: Nice lead you have there. The angular contour really adds to the energy/feel of the piece.

Solo Break: You two are masters of timbre. The drum break allows the piece to "rejuvenate" so that when you hit the listener with something big in sound, the effect is ten times as powerful. Excellent.

Sax Solo: Maybe add a funk rhythm on dead notes of the guitar (The crescendo in the bar before made me expect something like that). It might help accent the drums a bit more. That's a pretty big gap your sax player has to fill. Good luck to him/her.

Full Power: Awesome! I loved the use of parallel minor third harmonies/intervals to bring the music to another "mini-climax", really cool. I do that a lot in my pieces.

Calming Down: Brilliant timbre change once again. Violin was annoying though, I would change it to a distorted guitar or Lead (Sawtooth) sound.

Verse II: Awesome use of the Kalimba. I hope you use a real one and not a keyboard/VST if and when you record this piece. Awesome use of the 7sus4 chord as well. I particularly like the 7#11 as well. Anyway, I'm a little off topic. The second half was good but perhaps the distorted guitar could fade in while panning progressively hard left and hard right until it hits dead center in the last bar. That would be really cool (IMO).

Change: I liked the violin in this section.

Chorus: Same as before.

Build Up: Excellent. Nice placement in the song and good use of tremolo picking. I liked the violin in this section as well.

Tension: Good. I particularly liked the Percussion in this one. Maybe some dissonant and technical runs (Think the instrumental section of Metropolis Part 1: The Miracle and The Sleeper by Dream Theater but dissonant) played by the lead guitar would amplify the effect you're after?

Release: Good but if you want the abrupt ending it shouldn't drag out for so long (IMO).

Overall I think you have a really good piece here which would be fine as instrumental, but if you do or have already decided on vocals make sure the vocalist is powerful yet dynamic so that he/she matches the music. I can imagine Opeth style cleans on the verses yet Russel Allens' (Symphony X) most "gruff" sounding voice (Like on the newer stuff) at the "Tension" section.

I have a new piece in this sort of genre but instrumental and I really need help with the structure. C4C would be fantastic if you could address those specific qualities of my piece.

Last edited by HaydenHohns at Jun 26, 2011,
Whoa! Thnks for the crits guys:

Firstly, @Whale: Thanks for the great praise! About the tension, that's the idea. A song, that just builds up tension to a final release at the end. The end, however, will be ambient mush afterwards. Imagine the songs a bomb and the GP is RIGHT before the explosion, but, on the demo/album, the explosion will be heard right after the last notes.

And yes, I've been working on different intros I noticed it myself and have been working on starting songs right from the get-go. Have had some success, which will be posted eventually

@tiammat: will get to your crit soon! Thanks

@Hayden: Nope! No custom gauges. Just some standard ones that I can find. Was using 9-42's, but jumped up to 10-52's not too long ago. Probably gonna settle on something inbetween.

No, no vocals!

And, about the ending, I mentioned it above, so just read that.

Thanks for all the compliments on timbre! We spend a lot of time working on change in timbre, so it's good to hear the compliments there.

I'm glad you enjoyed the piece, will crit soon!
OK, no worries then. I'll probably try that tuning as a seven string equivelant when I finish writing an EP/LP's worth of music. Is it safe to assume you'll average and go to 47's? I had 48 Elixers on my PRS a few months ago and they were fantastic in D standard. Not quite the same tuning as you have here but still in a very similar frequency zone.

I'm glad there's no vocals, I was just confused that you had named the parts like a vocal song rather than letters for sections or themes etc.

So hurry up and record it then!

The timbre is what really stood out in this piece to me. So many Prog bands settle for a few synths, string emulators and a standard metal band set up. Beyond Twilight is one that (IMO) makes the most of timbre variation. You might find it worthwhile looking into their discography.
Quote by HaydenHohns
OK, no worries then. I'll probably try that tuning as a seven string equivelant when I finish writing an EP/LP's worth of music. Is it safe to assume you'll average and go to 47's? I had 48 Elixers on my PRS a few months ago and they were fantastic in D standard. Not quite the same tuning as you have here but still in a very similar frequency zone.

yeah, do it man. It opens up a lot of possible chords that are hard in Standard/Dropped tunings. It might take a couple days to "rewire" your brain for the new intervals, but once you do... it's a looooot of fun.

I'm glad there's no vocals, I was just confused that you had named the parts like a vocal song rather than letters for sections or themes etc.

I labeled them, so it's nothing on PB. I tend to think of my songs as if it kind of has vocals, but the melody is them. So, typically, a main melody is a verse, chorus is the 'catchy' part, and bridge's have different melodies, etc.

So hurry up and record it then!

The timbre is what really stood out in this piece to me. So many Prog bands settle for a few synths, string emulators and a standard metal band set up. Beyond Twilight is one that (IMO) makes the most of timbre variation. You might find it worthwhile looking into their discography.

Will do

And i've listened before and wasn't too impressed
Yes! You'd be surprised how a little bit of maths and fretboard knowledge would come in hand for that sort of thing.

Fair enough.

I guess timbre isn't their main thing but whether you like it or not, you will still be able to appreciate the creativity required to compose "For the Love of Art and the Making". It's a 38 minute composition split into 43 parts (Thus meaning the average song length is not even a minute) and it can be arranged in any order and you will get a new song and I believe layering various tracks (Use something like Pro Tools or Cubase) will create hidden tracks (There is supposed to be 3). It is IMO the most groundbreaking Progressive metal record nobody has heard. Most people love or hate it. That said, the reviews I've seen that criticise it haven't gotten their facts correct. They say that the structure is formulaic like Dream Theater and Symphony X but they obviously didn't read the liner notes in the CD because it talks about how it is so structurally different from them (Or maybe they downloaded it so they probably just love to hate). That is fact but things like 'emotion' and 'feel' are subjective, so I don't worry about those reviews. Personally, I enjoyed it a lot but I'm still aware of some painfully obvious flaws. But each to his own.

I mean there are still parts you can enjoy in it, "The Perfect Heart" sections are really nice, "In The Eyes of My Soul" is a particular section which gets modulated reversed etc and some sections sound like they would fit on a horror film ("Night Wandering on Needles"). That's my opinion, but they certainly are a very original Progressive Metal band that doesn't rely on complex chords and time signatures to constitute as 'Prog'. The whole idea of Progressive Metal is to 'raise the standard' of Rock/Metal in a unique way but so many modern Prog bands rely on a formula laid out by bands like Opeth, Dream Theater and Symphony X that they only focus on what has already been done by them. Your experimentation in timbre shows that you have creativity, and I think if you continue this path that you and Progbass92 will stand out among the plethora of mediocre Progressive Rock/Metal.

Just sayin'.
Hey man sorry it took so long for me to return your crit. Unfortunately ther's not much I have to say about this one as it's pretty great as it is but I'll give it my best shot haha.

Lovin the intro, excellent use of 5/4 and chord voicings. Riff at measure 9 was nice, somewhat reminded me of dream theater. Change was a nice shift in dynamics but I would've liked to have seen some variety on the drumming here.

Verse I was excellent, but measures 32 sounded off. I like all the ideas you have there but some stuff sounds off-key and it ends up sounded somewhat confused, to me at least. Verse continuation was pretty nice, loved the tesseract-esque vibe here, it kinda reminded me of music from golden sun haha. It just makes me smile hearing the intro theme throughout the song, I love stuff like that! It takes skill to be able to use recurring themes and motifs with variations throughout
a song like this.

Transition was well executed and flowed nicely into the solo. However, I'll be honest, I didn't really care for most of the solo. Some of the notes just sounded off to me, and I think the phrasing could be improved as well. Chorus was awesome, nothing more to say here; love stuff like that! It's impressive to be able to use recurring themes and motifs with variations throughout a song like this.

Transition into the solo break was alright. That chord sounded a little off. Idk what it is, I usually love harmonically rich/complex chords but it just doesn't sit well with me there. Improv sax solo section was just pure sexy, I could totally hear some awesome tenor playing over that, or maybe even a guitar lead. This section also kinda reminded me of ever forthright a bit; definitely not a bad thing!

I didn't really care for FULL POWER, the transition seemed a little too abrupt. I see what you were going for there but it just seemed out of place somewhat, at least to my ears

Calming down and verse II are wonderful, great job of reintroducing the themes from the earlier in the song. Change was nice and the violin was a nice a addition albeit a little dry but nonetheless fitting. Chorus II and buildup were both great as well and fit perfectly.

The tension she rises was alright, it got a little too frantic too quickly, it should have built a little more before the dotted 8th note snare goodies. It's also somewhat disappointing when and release comes in, it just gives a feeling of discomfort somewhat. It'd be better if there was a groovier part at measure 197. That's really my main gripe with this song, there's really no strong groove anywhere. There's a lot of really awesome proggy goodies but not really any strong groove or rhythm you can bob your head to. That's just my opinion though, I love music that grooves but at the same time is harmonically rich and cerebral. This song just needs a little more groove in some parts, a little 4/4 would do it some justice I think so yeah, nonetheless, quite an amazing song you have here man. LOVE the usage of recurring themes and motifs with variations, great job there. Keep at it man, looking forward to hearing your next one
This is going to be a short crit. Not because I didn't think much about it, but because there isn't much that I could find to crit. This is a really nice piece and really captures a distinct feel like a lot of your other works. Definitely adding this to my T&C folder.

I think it might be cool if for the sax solo it started out as a jazzy type solo, maybe for half of it, and then for the rest it melded into a solo that's purely in the style of everything else there. Just thought that might be a cool way to get even more colors/textures in there. I haven't yet experimented with a total jazz sound over prog yet but it is something I intend to do.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Who's going to stop you? The music police?
Intro: Had progressive feeling in it, but same time it had nice melody on it

Verse: It was cool and will sound even better with vocals. Liked the slap bass thingy

Solo: Actually it was pretty nice solo. (mostly solos suck on UG)

Chorus: Everything was on place here

Would love the hear that sax solo

The calming down part was pretty cool, especially when the verse kicks in.

The Tension! part was pretty weird, i didnt really like it, but the outro was nice

C4C? https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1471401
Metal is like a apple, no-one likes the core.