#1
If you are in the key of A minor and you start resolving a lot of licks within the a minor scale on c..would that be known "using major scales" or is it still considered only to be using the minor scale?


Also, if you want to play in a particular mode like A phrygian, does the progression usually have to use a A phrygian chord progression?
#2
If you're in the key of Am, then by definition you resolve at the A note. Stopping at the C will still give some tension.

If you want to play in A phrygian, you have to use an A phrygian progression, although a vamp (a repeating two chord progression that is pretty static. Sometimes three chords are used, but rarely) will be a lot easier.
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#3
In the key of A minor, you will always be playing the A minor scale, or the A minor scale with accidentals. By ending on C all you're doing is playing the 3rd note of the scale, nothing more.

If you want to play A phrygian, there are a couple ways to go about it. The traditionally/technically correct way to play it is to play in a modal context. A song is either in a key or a mode, or is atonal. I would expand but you don't seem to have a grip on songs in keys yet so you wouldn't understand how modes work. However you can feel assured that 99.99999% of songs are in a key, rather than a mode. Most musicians will go their entire lives without playing a modal song.

A more common use of a mode is by deriving the scale from that mode and applying it in keys. So you can use the A phrygian scale over a song in A minor. It is in fact just the A minor scale with accidentals, but people can use the word "phrygian" to help them visualise accidentals.
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#4
Quote by AlanHB
A more common use of a mode is by deriving the scale from that mode and applying it in keys. So you can use the A phrygian scale over a song in A minor. It is in fact just the A minor scale with accidentals, but people can use the word "phrygian" to help them visualise accidentals.


Yep.

You'll notice the only difference between the phrygian scale and the natural minor scale is the b2. You just have to be careful where you use that particular note. A b2 in A minor would be Bb: obviously this won't sound too pretty over an Em chord. You could either avoid the interval or switch back to the natural B in this context.
#5
a true minor scale will have a raised 7th.. ie in the key of A a G# .. (harmonic minor)

however Aeolian Mode implies natty minor (G natural) meaning it is related to the Major scale (C major)

i use phrygian over a Maj7 chord.. ie Fmaj7 chord A phrygian mode.
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#6
Quote by seymour_jackson
a true minor scale will have a raised 7th.. ie in the key of A a G# .. (harmonic minor)

however Aeolian Mode implies natty minor (G natural) meaning it is related to the Major scale (C major)

i use phrygian over a Maj7 chord.. ie Fmaj7 chord A phrygian mode.



No you aren't, if F is your tonal center, then you arent using a mode at all. You're playing F Major starting on the 3rd.

A true minor scale IS Natural minor. Minor KEYS frequently can use chords derived from 3 different scales, (Natural, Harmonic, and Melodic) It's incorrect to say a true minor scale will have a Raised 7th (by the way, a raised 7th is enharmonic to a return to the octave). A raised b7 will be a harmonic minor move, and while it is true that harmonic minor is often found in a minor key, most notably the V chord...it's ignorant to suggest that this makes it a "true" minor scale.

It's clear that you appear to have a little knowledge, and I'm not presuming to tell you how to look at it; I'm not trying to teach you or correct you, you can look at it how you like.

I am posting this for the sake of those who might read this and not know any better, because as you wrote it, it's flat out not the case. Especially this claim of what "true" minor is.

Best,

Sean
#7
Quote by Sean0913
No you aren't, if F is your tonal center, then you arent using a mode at all. You're playing F Major starting on the 3rd.


No. We are not starting on the tonic pitch therefore it is considered a mode. Essentially, in todays Western Harmony, even the Major Scale is considered a mode (Ionian). So even if I did start on F I would be using the Ionian Mode.

Quote by Sean0913
A true minor scale IS Natural minor. Minor KEYS frequently can use chords derived from 3 different scales, (Natural, Harmonic, and Melodic) It's incorrect to say a true minor scale will have a Raised 7th (by the way, a raised 7th is enharmonic to a return to the octave). A raised b7 will be a harmonic minor move, and while it is true that harmonic minor is often found in a minor key, most notably the V chord...it's ignorant to suggest that this makes it a "true" minor scale.


As taught in Music Colleges and Conservatories (which I am attending) The True Minor Scale is Harmonic Minor as it accomplishes the resolution and distinction of the "minor sound" the best. Its major V chord (unlike Natural) in a cadence pattern (i64-V-i) will tell the listener the piece has ended. Natural minor yeilds a minor v chord which lacks resolution power in the harmonic movement to i.

When you audition for a Conservatory and they ask you to play a minor scale they mean HARMONIC minor.

Quote by Sean0913
It's clear that you appear to have a little knowledge, and I'm not presuming to tell you how to look at it; I'm not trying to teach you or correct you, you can look at it how you like.


Sun Tzu's "Art of War" has taught us that making assumptions and presumptions will lead to defeat on any type of battlefield. Its unwise to tell someone they have "a little knowledge" of anything.
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Last edited by seymour_jackson at May 26, 2011,
#8
Quote by seymour_jackson
As taught in Music Colleges and Conservatories (which I am attending) The True Minor Scale is Harmonic Minor as it accomplishes the resolution and distinction of the "minor sound" the best. Its major V chord (unlike Natural) in a cadence pattern (i64-V-i) will tell the listener the piece has ended. Natural minor yeilds a minor v chord which lacks resolution power in the harmonic movement to i.

When you audition for a Conservatory and they ask you to play a minor scale they mean HARMONIC minor.

Sun Tzu's "Art of War" has taught us that making assumptions and presumptions will lead to defeat on any type of battlefield. Its unwise to tell someone they have "a little knowledge" of anything.


"'Minor sound' at it's best" is extremely subjective. Without getting into the whole 'nothing is objective' debate, I think the point is that there is no scale considered the 'true' minor. We have three main flavors of it for a reason: they all serve different functions. You want to talk about the 'true major', I would agree with that, seeing as we (Western composers) have that one pretty much nailed down.

Also, keep in mind that you're learning from a conservatory, which teach to classical methods and foundations. In most popular contemporary music, I'd argue that Natural Minor is the minor scale of choice. Once again, different times, styles, skillsets and whatnot call for different forms of the minor scale.
Last edited by soviet_ska at May 26, 2011,
#9
Right, in your "corner of the world" in conservatory/music school, I would say "when in Rome", If that's what they tell you, then do as they say. I'm not in Conservatory/Music School, so I get why you see it and call it the way that you do. You're a student. I'm not. I'm a teacher.

More power...Its useless to argue these two different perspectives, as was pointed out, you're in a Traditional Classical school of teaching and thinking. I'm not.

I know why they'd teach it, I understand the reasons, and rationale. In that context if they tell you Minor they mean harmonic, do it.


Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at May 26, 2011,
#10
I can't see any benefit to referencing minor scale to harmonic minor in any case. 99% of people will think 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. Unless you're really set on naming every scale on it's technical 'modal' name (which generally is unnecessary)

I have never heard of TRUE minor referencing to harmonic minor, ever and I am taught by professional bandleaders / composers / MD's and session players.
#11
There is no "true minor scale". That's just some elitist concoction.


Quote by seymour_jackson


As taught in Music Colleges and Conservatories (which I am attending) The True Minor Scale is Harmonic Minor


They don't teach that in Colleges or conservatories. You have to be very careful not to misconstrue what they are teaching you.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 26, 2011,
#12
Duh I just accept a true minor is something with the minor 3rd.
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#13
Quote by AlanHB
Duh I just accept a true minor is something with the minor 3rd.



Yeah but dorian has a minor 3rd, super locrian has a minor 3rd, phrygian has a minor 3rd, locrian has a minor 3rd... There has to be a universal rule for THE MINOR SCALE somewhere. I always figured the general consensus was for 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
#14
Quote by Zanon
Yeah but dorian has a minor 3rd, super locrian has a minor 3rd, phrygian has a minor 3rd, locrian has a minor 3rd... There has to be a universal rule for THE MINOR SCALE somewhere. I always figured the general consensus was for 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7


If something is in a minor key, then modes don't technically apply. When used in a major/minor context they are just the minor/major scales with accidentals, and all share the minor 3rd.

If you want to make some other argument about modes as CST or other, those scales/modes still have a more minor feel than major. They're also referred to as the minor modes.
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#15
Quote by seymour_jackson
No. We are not starting on the tonic pitch therefore it is considered a mode. Essentially, in todays Western Harmony, even the Major Scale is considered a mode (Ionian). So even if I did start on F I would be using the Ionian Mode.


As taught in Music Colleges and Conservatories (which I am attending) The True Minor Scale is Harmonic Minor as it accomplishes the resolution and distinction of the "minor sound" the best. Its major V chord (unlike Natural) in a cadence pattern (i64-V-i) will tell the listener the piece has ended. Natural minor yeilds a minor v chord which lacks resolution power in the harmonic movement to i.

When you audition for a Conservatory and they ask you to play a minor scale they mean HARMONIC minor.


Sun Tzu's "Art of War" has taught us that making assumptions and presumptions will lead to defeat on any type of battlefield. Its unwise to tell someone they have "a little knowledge" of anything.


i've studied the art of war extensively and taught music at colleges. that bullshit might work on others, but it won't work on me. saying that you have "a little knowledge" isn't an assumption -- it's an analysis (and a very accurate one in this case) -- and sun tzu stresses the benefits of analysis before going into battle. this way, the victor can be known before the initial encounter occurs.

go back and review the basics before you try to flash your credentials at us. your knowledge of modes is flawed, which leads me to believe your knowledge of tonal theory is flawed. it's great that you attend a conservatory, but showing up is only half the battle.
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#16
Quote by Unreal T
If you are in the key of A minor and you start resolving a lot of licks within the a minor scale on c..would that be known "using major scales" or is it still considered only to be using the minor scale?
If you resolve a chord to the I-chord of another key, you either have a modulation if you continue to play in that new key, or you have a secondary dominant to that new key if you revert to the original key immediately after.

Technically, to fully modulate, you have to confirm that you are playing in that new key with a cadence. (My theory teacher told me once that except for the I and V, you'd best have a IV too, to hear all the notes of the new key. This is more a trick, not an official rule).

However, it is so common to switch between relative keys (like your A minor and C major), that it's sometimes hard to determine where the switches occur.
#17
Quote by AeolianWolf
i've studied the art of war extensively and taught music at colleges. that bullshit might work on others, but it won't work on me. saying that you have "a little knowledge" isn't an assumption -- it's an analysis (and a very accurate one in this case) -- and sun tzu stresses the benefits of analysis before going into battle. this way, the victor can be known before the initial encounter occurs.

go back and review the basics before you try to flash your credentials at us. your knowledge of modes is flawed, which leads me to believe your knowledge of tonal theory is flawed. it's great that you attend a conservatory, but showing up is only half the battle.


Your argument here, if there is any, uses no musical examples of where im wrong.

just that its wrong,b*llshit and flawed.
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#18
Quote by seymour_jackson
Your argument here, if there is any, uses no musical examples of where im wrong.

just that its wrong,b*llshit and flawed.



Hmm, rather than slinging crap at eachother, I think maybe you should address some questions first.

Quote by seymour_jackson
No. We are not starting on the tonic pitch therefore it is considered a mode. Essentially, in todays Western Harmony, even the Major Scale is considered a mode (Ionian). So even if I did start on F I would be using the Ionian Mode.


Are you suggesting that modes and keys are essentially the same thing?


Quote by seymour_jackson
When you audition for a Conservatory and they ask you to play a minor scale they mean HARMONIC minor.


Why would they ask for a minor scale if everything is a mode? What would they ask for if they wanted the more commonly known minor scale?
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#20
Quote by seymour_jackson
Your argument here, if there is any, uses no musical examples of where im wrong.


why do i need musical examples of where you're wrong? you gave no musical examples on modes. all you said is that starting on any pitch other than the tonic requires the use of a mode, and anyone who knows first grade theory can easily prove otherwise. so because beethoven's für elise starts on an E with no sharps or flats in the key signature, it's E phrygian? i'm hoping you just wrote something incorrectly, because no one who attends a conservatory should think that.

Quote by seymour_jackson
just that its wrong,b*llshit and flawed.


you think i'm wrong? i didn't make up what i know -- i studied it. the same theory that's been around for hundreds of years. if you're calling me wrong, you're saying the same about every great composer who's ever lived.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at May 30, 2011,
#21
Quote by AeolianWolf

i find it funny that the people that think everyone is wrong are always wrong themselves.


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#22
Hey...just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean I'm NOT being followed...
Quote by AlanHB
It's the same as all other harmony. Surround yourself with skulls and candles if it helps.