Poll: Do you agree with what these parents are doing?
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View poll results: Do you agree with what these parents are doing?
Yes, I agree
40 14%
No, I don't agree
199 68%
I'm not sure
53 18%
Voters: 292.
Page 1 of 13
#1
So there's a Canadian family who have decided to not conform their children's lives to any kind of gender identity. As such, they currently have two 'boys' who are most often mistaken to actually be girls, due to having the freedom to choose their own clothes and hairstyles etc.

This, for example is Jazz, a boy


What are your opinions on this kind of parenting? Do you think children should be "forced" into a gender-identity?

Toronto Star article (more detail)

BBC News article (less detail, but a shorter read)

Poll on the way/
#2
You know there was a huge thread about this already?

Also, children shouldn't be forced to make their own decisions.
Last edited by Alex Vik at May 29, 2011,
#4
Quote by uk.mace
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#6
I think considering today's society, certain things, such as gender, should be encouraged by the parent
People are scum and will judge no matter what you do with yourself, but this kids not gonna have an easy life if the parents don't raise them like boys and girls
Last edited by Rock'n'Roller at May 29, 2011,
#8
This is messed up. Those kids are gonna get so much trouble when they're school age and they're gonna have gender identity issues for sure as they grow up. And for what? A social experiment?

People are stupid. Let little boys be little boys and little girls be little girls, and when they get older help them with any gender issues they may have then.
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#9
They shouldn't even have the freedom of what they eat, let alone what they want between their legs.
pinga
#10
While I do agree that society is geared towards differentiating people based on gender (and this necessarily isn't a good thing) I also believe that raising a child in spite of this is just idiotic. They're raising their child in a way that will lead to discrimination. Sure they should be allowed to make their own decisions, but only when they understand the social context of what they're doing and thus can choose whether to conform or rebel.
#13
Children have no sense of consequence, and as such, this is kind of weird.

My 2 cents...

Edit: I'm actually not sure to what extent are they doing this, I didn't read the article...
Last edited by Vitor_vdp at May 29, 2011,
#14
I think this is a good idea. If I ever had a kid I would buy it gender-neutral toys and not dress it in a gendered colour, but I don't think I would keep the sex a secret. I admire what they're doing though.

A lot of you probably don't realise that even from birth little girls are forced into pink clothing, told to look 'cute' while boy babies are 'big and strong', given nurturing toys to play with instead of smashy adventurous toys, and are encouraged to play doing housework and baking and childrearing. By the time they are old enough to be aware of their gender identity, the damage is already done.

That being said, that baby is really ugly
#15
It's a hard question. On one hand you cannot force anyone to do anything, it's part of our basic human rights to do what we like (within reason).

I think the main issue with this is the children won't actually have a massive amount of free will, sure they're allowed to choose which clothes and hair styles they want, but surely the kids are just going to be influenced by their parents? I'm pretty sure 'Jazz' didn't know what plaits were before and possibly only got them from copying his mother.

Humanity on a basic level wants to be accepted into a group or norm. You push these kids out into the world when they've grown up a bit and they're going to freak out.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but at the same time... it could end up being a really important case study for psychologists. That, and we don't actually have a choice.
#16
Quote by MrKyran
I think the main issue with this is the children won't actually have a massive amount of free will, sure they're allowed to choose which clothes and hair styles they want, but surely the kids are just going to be influenced by their parents? I'm pretty sure 'Jazz' didn't know what plaits were before and possibly only got them from copying his mother.

Nope, it says in the longer article the parents both have short-cropped hair. As for clothes, they're taken into the children's clothing section and choose whatever they feel comfortable in, nothing to do with what their parents wear.
#17
this is really stupid.
Why can't people just accept that man and women are different?
Men have certain advantages and women have certain advantages and people should just accept that.
Life isn't fair anyway, so this only makes it harder for that baby.
#18
Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
I think this is a good idea. If I ever had a kid I would buy it gender-neutral toys and not dress it in a gendered colour, but I don't think I would keep the sex a secret. I admire what they're doing though.

A lot of you probably don't realise that even from birth little girls are forced into pink clothing, told to look 'cute' while boy babies are 'big and strong', given nurturing toys to play with instead of smashy adventurous toys, and are encouraged to play doing housework and baking and childrearing. By the time they are old enough to be aware of their gender identity, the damage is already done.

That being said, that baby is really ugly

Don't you think your child would feel out of place growing up with friends? Her friends would have dolls and ovens and whatever else girls play with and your daughter would have ''gender-neutral'' toys, whatever that is...
pinga
#19
Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
A lot of you probably don't realise that even from birth little girls are forced into pink clothing, told to look 'cute' while boy babies are 'big and strong', given nurturing toys to play with instead of smashy adventurous toys, and are encouraged to play doing housework and baking and childrearing. By the time they are old enough to be aware of their gender identity, the damage is already done.


Not always, a lot of the families or soon to be parents I know dislike their kids having gender specific coloured clothes or toys. In fact I knew a lot of boys who played with barbies and girls who played with cars. The toy only serves as a basic idea for the child their imagination and creativity creates the rest.

And yes. That is one ugly ass baby.
#20
Quote by Tangerineseeker
this is really stupid.
Why can't people just accept that man and women are different?
Men have certain advantages and women have certain advantages and people should just accept that.
Life isn't fair anyway, so this only makes it harder for that baby.

I think the point of the whole thing is to not make the kid feel conflicted should it turn out to be transgendered.

Personally I have a real lack of shits to give.
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#21
Quote by Tangerineseeker
this is really stupid.
Why can't people just accept that man and women are different?
Men have certain advantages and women have certain advantages and people should just accept that.
Life isn't fair anyway, so this only makes it harder for that baby.


Gender identity is still heavily debated on.

However I agree with you when you say they are making it hard for those kids.
#22
Quote by TheBurningFish
I think the point of the whole thing is to not make the kid feel conflicted should it turn out to be transgendered.

Personally I have a real lack of shits to give.

But won't this force the kid into being transgendered?
I mean obviously a boy shouldn't be told that he can't cry or other extreme examples. But i think they should just be aware of the fact that he/she is a boy or a girl.
#23
Encourage, not force.

These kids are probably getting bullied...
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#24
Quote by Tangerineseeker
But won't this force the kid into being transgendered?

Such a thing is not possible as far as I can see.

Either the kid will want to act more like a boy or want to act more like a girl and will act accordingly. That's ALL that will happen.

It's such a non issue.
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For me, the 60's ended that day in 1978...

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#25
Quote by TheBurningFish
Such a thing is not possible as far as I can see.

Either the kid will want to act more like a boy or want to act more like a girl and will act accordingly. That's ALL that will happen.

It's such a non issue.

Maybe i understand the term wrong but if this baby is for example a boy and he will want to act more like a girl, won't this make him transgendered?
#26
There is a difference between 'forcing something' and raising your kids properly.
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#27
Quote by Tangerineseeker
Maybe i understand the term wrong but if this baby is for example a boy and he will want to act more like a girl, won't this make him transgendered?

Yeah, but you can't force a kid to want to be a different gender than their biological one. The parents just seem to not be assuming. I know trans people who'd kill to have parents with this approach.
The UG Awards exist only to instill me with existential doubt.


For me, the 60's ended that day in 1978...

Willies. Fuck the lick and fuck you too.
#28
If I had children, say a boy I'd let him choose what clothes he wants. But within reason eg no bright pink filly dresses or long plated hair with clips etc. That just seems like asking to be bullied
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#30
This is not Freedom of gender this is Gender confusion, something that cant possibly have a positive effect when they get into contact with other children. Some people here talk about children being forced into certain roles, and this might be right to a CERTAIN extent. Teaching your child gender consciousness is important.
#31
this is ridiculous; style and what looks good are learnt from the parents. you're not born with the ability to match shoes with your trousers and your top or you'll look very strange.
these kids are going to have a hard time growing up as a result. they'll never know how to dress themselves properly and with good taste.
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#33


AGAIN

Agree with the principle, but this family are a horrible example. The parents are obviously doing it to be non-conformist. Look at the kids names!

Also, gender freedom isn't possible practically in our society.
#34
Firstly, it would be idiotic to deny this will very probably lead to harmful reactions towards the children. But the same could easily have been said of African-American children attending the first non-segregated schools rather than remaining in segregated ones (it's also very similar to the often disasterous Western policy of somewhat arbitary gender assignment in cases of children born with ambigious genitals). This fact alone isn't enough to decry what the parents are doing.

And anyone claiming this will mess the children up is talking out of their ass. We simply don't know what affects this will have on the children but it is a rather important point that an individuals sense of gender identity goes a bit beyond plaits. Plenty of transvestites have a strong sense of gender identity.

And any argument that they should be socialised into 'proper' gender norms due to threat of bullying is dangerously close to the argument that it's just for the best that young people without a concrete sense of gender to just go with the norm and this has the potential to be very harmful. Not to mention the fact that it's victim blaming plain and simple.
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Last edited by leeb rocks at May 29, 2011,
#35
Quote by leeb rocks
Firstly, it would be idiotic to deny this will very probably lead to harmful reactions towards the children. But the same could easily have been said of African-American children attending the first non-segregated schools rather than remaining in segregated ones (it's also very similar to the often disasterous Western policy of somewhat arbitary gender assignment in cases of children born with ambigious genitals). This fact alone isn't enough to decry what the parents are doing.

And anyone claiming this will mess the children up is talking out of their ass. We simply don't know what affects this will have on the children but it is a rather important point that an individuals sense of gender identity goes a bit beyond plaits. Plenty of transvestites have a strong sense of gender identity.

And any argument that they should be socialised into 'proper' gender norms due to threat of bullying is dangerously close to the argument that it's just for the best that young people without a concrete sense of gender to just go with the norm and this has the potential to be very harmful. Not to mention the fact that it's victim blaming plain and simple.



Exactly. This thread is full of idiots. "Herp derp it scares me and I don't understand it therefore it's SICK AND WRONG derp"

It is not right that little girls are forced into wearing pink and playing with dollies. Infact, thinking about it some more, if I had a kid I would probably do just this too.
#36
Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
Exactly. This thread is full of idiots. "Herp derp it scares me and I don't understand it therefore it's SICK AND WRONG derp"

It is not right that little girls are forced into wearing pink and playing with dollies. Infact, thinking about it some more, if I had a kid I would probably do just this too.


Please. Not everyone doesn't understand it. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean you don't understand it.

Simply, this isn't practical in our society.
#37
Quote by Tanglewoodguit

Simply, this isn't practical in our society.



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#39
Quote by Tanglewoodguit
Please. Not everyone doesn't understand it. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean you don't understand it.

Simply, this isn't practical in our society.


How is it not practical? The kids are like 5. They should be allowed to wear what they want. Did you seriously never go through a phase of dressing in your mum's clothes for a laugh?

If in later life they feel like they want to conform they can. The parents aren't forcing them to wear pink clothes, they chose to.