#1
See, I recently got a very nice Bugera V22, which sounds great and is the metaphorical apple of my eye. It sounds great as it is, straight out the box, and I'm sure it'll sound even better once the speaker is broken in properly, but I figure that at some point I'll need or want to change the valves. However, I'm pretty new to valves and their ways, and while I think I could manage the swap itself, I'm terrified of killing myself by trying to bias the thing after swapping the power valves.

The confusing thing is, I'm not even sure if I'll need to in my case. I would just be swapping EL84s for other EL84s, but they will be from a different manufacturer (probably Sovtek or Electro-Harmonix or something else cheap and good) and I imagine will have different specs. A help page somewhere deep in the Behringer site, found with the help of Google states:

If you want to use other brand tubes, then this is a job for a real tube technician. You will need to refer to the datasheet to get the the "idle current" for the tube in question. Then you will need to actually measure the idle current through the tube itself - and adjust the bias voltage to obtain the correct idle current. In practice, you will have to aim for the best average idle current for all 4 tubes. This may require use of special "extension sockets".


But I'm not sure if this is being honest or just scaring me into buying Bugera brand tubes. So, time for a probably retarded question.

Do I need to bias my amp after swapping power tubes of the same type, but not brand?
LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
#2
email bugera and ask them if it's cathode-biased or fixed bias.

if you're lucky and it's cathode-biased (most, but not all, el84 amps are CB) it shouldn't require any biasing.

EDIT: lol at the irony of bugera's being super-concerned about people electrocuting themselves rebiasing and then selling amps which set people on fire...
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#3
Quote by Dave_Mc
email bugera and ask them if it's cathode-biased or fixed bias.

if you're lucky and it's cathode-biased (most, but not all, el84 amps are CB) it shouldn't require any biasing.

EDIT: lol at the irony of bugera's being super-concerned about people electrocuting themselves rebiasing and then selling amps which set people on fire...


Hey, that was a problem with the first line, and isn't present in my amp.

At least, not yet.



Thanks anyway, I'll give them a bell.

I have to say, the manual that came with the amp is pretty useless.
LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
#4
Quote by NeutralFan
Hey, that was a problem with the first line, and isn't present in my amp.

At least, not yet.


yeah dave, tired joke is tired


Quote by NeutralFan
Thanks anyway, I'll give them a bell.

I have to say, the manual that came with the amp is pretty useless.


i would assume it is a cathode biased, A/B push/pull setup, for no real particular reason other than that setup is really popular now-a-days. this means you can replace your power tubes without worrying about matching and biasing you amp.

i have not heard overly encouraging things from bugera's customer support, but i am with dave on contacting them first.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#5
Quote by gumbilicious
yeah dave, tired joke is tired


i would assume it is a cathode biased, A/B push/pull setup, for no real particular reason other than that setup is really popular now-a-days. this means you can replace your power tubes without worrying about matching and biasing you amp.

i have not heard overly encouraging things from bugera's customer support, but i am with dave on contacting them first.


Cheers. Well, the trouble is I'm not sure if I can contact them. This confuses me. I'm not really sure what that place and e-mail address are.

The support page doesn't seem terribly promising either, as the only real form of support is the help system on Behringer's site, which is the exact site I feel is biased (no pun intended).

However, there must be some info on the internet somewhere, and I'll be damned if I'm not going to find it.
LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
Last edited by NeutralFan at May 30, 2011,
#6
yeah i had a quick look at their site and i didn't find anything about how it was biased, or in the manual (or whatever it was) i downloaded.

Gonna have to email them i think
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#7
Right, well I've sent them a question through their confusing help system. I'll wait and see if I can find this out elsewhere.

Actually, there's a bias adjustment knob-thingy and an RCA "test point" under the amp, does this mean anything? Just thought I'd check.

Quote by Dave_Mc
yeah i had a quick look at their site and i didn't find anything about how it was biased, or in the manual (or whatever it was) i downloaded.

Gonna have to email them i think

I would if I could figure their e-mail out!

As it is, I'm not really sure if the e-mail address in the contact section of their site is relevant at all, what with the post address above being in the British Virgin Islands. Apparently I should get an e-mail from the Behringer help folks sometime soon anyway.
LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
Last edited by NeutralFan at May 30, 2011,
#8
ah... i'd guess (could be way off) if it has an actual bias adjustment thingy then it's probably not cathode biased. but if you've emailed them you might as well wait for a reply.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#9
Quote by Dave_Mc
ah... i'd guess (could be way off) if it has an actual bias adjustment thingy then it's probably not cathode biased. but if you've emailed them you might as well wait for a reply.


Well, I'll wait and see, but after digging about a bit it appears that Bugera are kind of a black hole as far as the bias goes. There are pretty clear instructions on the website for most of their other amps, but the V22, V55 and V5 have absolutely nothing.



It also seems that a large number of people have e-mailed Bugera regarding this problem and not been given a proper answer; apparently the support e-mail address (info@bugera.com, note that there is no mention of this on the website; possibly it no longer exists) is now refusing to answer the question.

The following is a extract from a quote of a quote on a thread somewhere in Harmony Central.

Quote by TomStrat
Quote by Leo27
There is no biasing information in the manual.
Nope there sure isnt, and as i noted in post #64 i'm still waiting on a response from Bugera, Rolf are you listening? i have now sent them multiple emails asking for this info and they have refused to answer so far. They answered my first email regarding a manual in a matter of hours but have totally failed when it comes to the bias info. Im starting to think they may have messed up and made a Cathode (self) Biasing amp with a bias adjustment knob on it and now they dont know what to do except bury their heads in the sand and refuse to answer emails. I have sent about 5 emails now asking for Bias information, my first email was on August 10th and here is what their answer was.

"Dear Tom My apologies for this, I attached the manual for you.

The biasing instructions will follow soon, the R&D guys are working on this matter.
Your BUGERA Team
Rolf Buschmann
European Business Center
BEHRINGER International GmbH

www.behringer.com"

how long does it take "R&D Guys" to figure out their own bias? apparently longer than a month. Great job Bugera

If this is a fixed bias amp and does require an adjustment when changing tube then this should be a very easy answer for them to provide to the end users, many of us have sent emails now... but no answer. They provide bias information for their 6l6/el34 amps right on their website, Why not this one? I have a friend who works at Behringer and is pretty high up there and i am CC'ing him on all these emails and making sure he sends them to his boss since info@bugera-amps.com is now refusing to answer emails on this matter.

If i get any bias information i will post it to this thread. In the meantime i hope Bugera is ready to warranty all the fried tubes/amps out there after end users start playing with the bias adjustment knob that they(Bugera) have provided. By the way i don't recommend that but you know it will happen eventually. There is nothing in the manual about this Bias adjustment feature on the amp... FAIL


However, that post is two years old, so it could be out of date. I suppose I'll just wait for this e-mail.

LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
#10
haha, wow
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#11
Quote by NeutralFan
Actually, there's a bias adjustment knob-thingy and an RCA "test point" under the amp, does this mean anything? Just thought I'd check.


yeah, it's pointing toward a fixed biased amp or else it'd have no need for either components.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#12
Quote by gumbilicious
yeah, it's pointing toward a fixed biased amp or else it'd have no need for either components.


I see. So fixed bias is set by the user, whil cathode bias sorts itself out? I'm learning, but it's still a little confusing.

If the V22 is fixed bias, does that mean I'll have to bias it when I swap valves? I feel the end of this is in sight.

Anyway, after digging about a bit on the same thread on Harmony Central, I found this.

Quote by TomStrat
[...] Also to everyone with a V22, i recently received an email back from Rolf at Bugera regarding Bias info. This is all the info he has received so far so take it for what its worth. i told him to please let me know when he hears more details.
Funny thing is that i swear mine measured around 16ma when i checked it about a month ago... ill have to double check though, if its really supposed to be 22ma then mine is running very cool, Sounds pretty dang good though.. hmmm.

"Dear Tom. Although we are not open on weekends, you are right.
I still have had no reply from our R&D regarding the biasing, and so I could not give you an answer, I do apologise.
The only thing I was told is that the Target current for the V22 is 22mA.


Does this help in any way? I'm going to start digging through this thread, as it seems to have some decent info in it.

By the way, thanks for the help so far, guys. It's much appreciated.

LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
#13
Sovtek EL84s are pretty bad... Get JJs.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#14
Quote by tubetime86
Sovtek EL84s are pretty bad... Get JJs.


I haven't really got to that stage yet...

I'm still trying to work out what to do with them.



Once I've figured out whether my amp needs biased and, if so, how to make it happen without killing anyone then I'll worry about which valves to use.



But thanks anyway.
LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
#16
Quote by IbanezBossShred
And yet you still insisted on trying to read it...


In English, Spanish and French. Unfortunately, I don't speak Spanish or French.



Come to think of it, that's probably why it took me so long.
LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
#17
Quote by NeutralFan
I haven't really got to that stage yet...

I'm still trying to work out what to do with them.



Once I've figured out whether my amp needs biased and, if so, how to make it happen without killing anyone then I'll worry about which valves to use.



But thanks anyway.

My apologies. I just figured you had plenty of help with the biasing issue so I'd throw that out there.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#18
Quote by tubetime86
My apologies. I just figured you had plenty of help with the biasing issue so I'd throw that out there.

No no. As you can probably tell, I'm pretty new to valves on the whole and recommendations are helpful.

LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
#19
Unfortunately the only people that can tell you the answer to your bias issue are either Bugera or a knowledgable tech looking at a schem, which is why I didn't muddy the water any more with my (uninformed) opinion.

Maybe look for a schematic and if you find one post it here. I know there are a handful of guys on here that should be able to tell from that.

As for the JJ thing, I just replaced the Sovtek EL84s in my Blues Junior with JJs and noticed a pretty big difference. From what I've read the sovteks are considered pretty poor for EL84s at least.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
Last edited by tubetime86 at May 31, 2011,
#20
Quote by tubetime86
Unfortunately the only people that can tell you the answer to your bias issue are either Bugera or a knowledgable tech looking at a schem, which is why I didn't muddy the water any more with my (uninformed) opinion.

Maybe look for a schematic and if you find one post it here. I know there are a handful of guys on here that should be able to tell from that.


I see. Good idea, I'll dig around on the web. However, on the whole Bugera seem to be pretty useless on biasing info for the V22 (and related amps) and I don't know if I'll find much. I'll have a look anyway.



By the way, I've sent an e-mail to that slightly ambiguous address on the site, in addition to the question in the Behringer help database-thing. Can't hurt, I suppose.
LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
#21
the amp has been out for 2 years and the research and development team at bugera is still working on what to do should a power tube fail.

that's awesome.


+1 on the jj's however it turns out.

wow is right.
I wondered why the frisbee was getting bigger, then it hit me.
#22
i own a v22 and have long researched this issue. i have concluded that i am definitely able to bias an amp myself if i bought a multimeter and researched it enough, as i am very competent with electronics, mechanics, fabrication and such. but it can be vry dangerous, and ifyou arent used to this kind of thing, take caution. you need to KNOW how to do it.

tubes are personal preference. most wil ltell you JJs are the best. have a consistant rep for all kinds of sound. seem to give a warmer less shrill sound like most cheap tubes. by that i mean not NOS or vintage tubes that cost a ton.

the v22 is NOT cathode based. you MUST bias it. i mean, you dont have to, but you shouldfor proper performance. there is a bias adjustment on the back. i e-mailed bugera about this:

The biasing instruction is to be reworked.

In the meantime the only thing I can tell is that it should be done by a qualified technician.

The target current for EL84 is 22 mA.
The chassis has to be removed from the amp housing to have access to all the necessary points, and this will void the warranty, and of course is a bit dangerous, because we are talking of tube amps, where we have up to 500 V, even if the amp is disconnected from mains power for a longer period of time.

that comment is in refrence to the biasing section on their site which at the time had nothing in it.

as for speaker? again personal preference. for price/performance ration i would recommend eminence or WGS. i believe WGS makes better stuff, but eminence has a HUGE selection and might have the particular flavor you want.

another note:

speaker will give you teh biggest change in sound. easly the best money spent. its practically a drop in mod too.

tubes can color your sound but speaker is far more dramatic. preamp tubes are drop in. no biasing. so getting youself some 12ax7s, 12au7s, 12at7 etc can really help be an easy mod. just pug em in like a light blub. power tubes MUST be biased. they also make the biggest difference on a low wattage amp like the v22 when you can overdrive the amp fairly easily because when the tubes are overdriven you can really hear theri voice. el84s tend to have a very bright jangly overdrive. if you jam with your friends and play loud, i suggest cranking the master, engaging the boost and EQ to taste (in my experence, the boost button adds gain and helps the amp overdrrive WAY easier. its the only time i ever overdrive my amp). you can really hear the true tone of your power tubes. bascially, my clean channel sounded like my drive channel after jamming loudly for about 2 hours with the boost switch on. complete tube overdrive with those suckers got hot.

that way, you know if you like your sound or not. if you just got your amp you may not know if you actually WANT new tubes or not. dont just assume they will be better.
Last edited by ikey_ at May 31, 2011,
#23
Quote by ikey_
i own a v22 and have long researched this issue. i have concluded that i am definitely able to bias an amp myself if i bought a multimeter and researched it enough, as i am very competent with electronics, mechanics, fabrication and such. but it can be vry dangerous, and ifyou arent used to this kind of thing, take caution. you need to KNOW how to do it.

tubes are personal preference. most wil ltell you JJs are the best. have a consistant rep for all kinds of sound. seem to give a warmer less shrill sound like most cheap tubes. by that i mean not NOS or vintage tubes that cost a ton.

the v22 is NOT cathode based. you MUST bias it. i mean, you dont have to, but you shouldfor proper performance. there is a bias adjustment on the back. i e-mailed bugera about this:

The biasing instruction is to be reworked.

In the meantime the only thing I can tell is that it should be done by a qualified technician.

The target current for EL84 is 22 mA.
The chassis has to be removed from the amp housing to have access to all the necessary points, and this will void the warranty, and of course is a bit dangerous, because we are talking of tube amps, where we have up to 500 V, even if the amp is disconnected from mains power for a longer period of time.

that comment is in refrence to the biasing section on their site which at the time had nothing in it.

as for speaker? again personal preference. for price/performance ration i would recommend eminence or WGS. i believe WGS makes better stuff, but eminence has a HUGE selection and might have the particular flavor you want.


Wow. Cheers mate.



So if I swap the valves for a new pair of the same type, I (or rather someone who knows what they're doing) will have to bias it? Just checking before I do anything stupid or unnecesary.

Thanks for the recommendations too. I'm not really looking to change the speaker at the moment but I'll keep those in mind, and it's good to hear consistent nice things on one brand.

Cheers.

Quote by ikey_
another note:

speaker will give you teh biggest change in sound. easly the best money spent. its practically a drop in mod too.

tubes can color your sound but speaker is far more dramatic. preamp tubes are drop in. no biasing. so getting youself some 12ax7s, 12au7s, 12at7 etc can really help be an easy mod. just pug em in like a light blub. power tubes MUST be biased. they also make the biggest difference on a low wattage amp like the v22 when you can overdrive the amp fairly easily because when the tubes are overdriven you can really hear theri voice. el84s tend to have a very bright jangly overdrive. if you jam with your friends and play loud, i suggest cranking the master, engaging the boost and EQ to taste (in my experence, the boost button adds gain and helps the amp overdrrive WAY easier. its the only time i ever overdrive my amp). you can really hear the true tone of your power tubes. bascially, my clean channel sounded like my drive channel after jamming loudly for about 2 hours with the boost switch on. complete tube overdrive with those suckers got hot.

that way, you know if you like your sound or not. if you just got your amp you may not know if you actually WANT new tubes or not. dont just assume they will be better.


Ah, thanks. So I suppose that answers my question!



I'll try your method the next time other people aren't in the house, and I'll check out the speakers and pre-amp valves.



Also, just as a side note and seeing as you seem experienced with V22s, the cage in the back that houses the valves seems difficult to remove (given the positioning of the speaker and the metal... box-thingy). Is it easier than it looks, and would it be a good idea to remove the cage completely for the sake of convenience?
LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
Last edited by NeutralFan at May 31, 2011,
#24
Long answer: Biasing is never completely necessary. Basically if you could guarantee that the valves you're swapping will be of similar values then you would never have to do it... But this is rarely the case, so we bias.

Short answer: Yes, you need to bias it or have it biased when swapping power tubes.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#25
Quote by tubetime86
Long answer: Biasing is never completely necessary. Basically if you could guarantee that the valves you're swapping will be of similar values then you would never have to do it... But this is rarely the case, so we bias.

Short answer: Yes, you need to bias it or have it biased when swapping power tubes.


Fair enough, makes sense.

Thanks.
LOOK

Call me Neutral.
Quote by da_
I wonder if you get more out put if you wire a battery to your penis.
#26
Good luck with it all... Since the amp is new I'd recommend just playing for a while and keeping a running tab of likes/dislikes in your mind. Then when some money comes available you can determine the best course of action to start addressing the dislikes/emphasizing the likes.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#27
Quote by gregs1020
the amp has been out for 2 years and the research and development team at bugera is still working on what to do should a power tube fail.

that's awesome.


+1 on the jj's however it turns out.

wow is right.




but yeah jjs are a pretty big step up from sovtek, assuming you like a warmer-sounding valve.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#28
i find teh cage anoying. however it does offer protection????? i dunno. there are like 6-8 screws holding it in. for the sake of convenience i removed about half. i cant remember. im sure 2-3 screws are going to hold it on just fine. if i rmember i removed all the hard to reach ones. IN FACT, i remember having to unscrew my speaker to get to the back ones. thats why i did it. if i ever needed to swap tubes in a bad time, that cage would make the job 10x as long. i often set my amp backside down in my car (i dont want it laying on the knobs) so i want the cage in there i guess.

i left only easily accesable, inyour face screws holding in the cage.

note: i didnt uninstall the speaker, just unscrewed, and gently set it down inside the amp still hooked up so i could my my screwdriver in there to get at the screws.

i have only had my amp loud enough to overdrive it a few times, and i was jamming at gig levels with a drummer with a HEAVY hand. my settings were master about 3 o clock (about 7), my channel about 5 or 6, boost in, EQ to taste (lower, maybe noon cause i thin the boost really adds mids and treble) and i played for about 2 hours. we breaked and i left my amp on tandby, so it stayed hot.

but im just saying you should actually hear the raw sound of your amp before you go changing things.

also - the speaker wil lbreak in and get more mellow. all speakers do. expect that to take months depending how you play. the more the better. i practice at college with a little solid state 6 inch that i blast about 2-5 hours a day and ive had this darn thing since 6th grade. i can tell the speaker has worn SOOO much. i can actually hear the speaker growl when i play loud. sounds good. really helps the solid state amp sound more natural. thats why people like low wattage speakers like alnico blues and such.

yeah. if you buy the same type of tubes, you will never have to bias. it also helps to buy a mached pair. places like musicians friend often sell then that way, ad they might cost a few more a pair opposed to singles, but its worth it. i forget what it means, but it means they were made the same, or adjusted teh same. something. basically, a matched pair is better than 2 random ones of the same brand.

- and again - preamp tubes (3 of your 5, you have 3 12ax7s and 2 el84s) do not need to be biased. you may even find that preamp tubes give you the right sound and you dont need to worry about power tubes.

in fact - its probably best to tinker. they all work together. so combos of tubes give different sounds. that means buying 5 aftermarket tubes may not be as good as only buying 2 and mixing them with your stock ones. it all one huge equasion of tone and personal preference.

im no expert seeing as i never got around o changing my power tubes. but, if i had t guess, i would say changing the powr tubes matters most when your playing low and getting tube breakup/overdrive.

preamp tubes will probably make a difference at all levels since they give you your drive and clean channel at all levels. the power section is just there to amplify the preamp sound to the max 22 watts and relly get the volume to drive the speaker and make people hear it. power tubes do have thier own characteristics at all times, but where they mostly differ is how they handle being pushed, where the differences are REALLY heard.

thats just my 2 cents