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#1
Hey all.
Yes I know another modes topic by me.
But I heard an overflow of modes lately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35JYMFfEKf4
The solo is mixolydian in there and the progression is a vamp Vsus4 to V.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKmYlnQv_dg
In here the main lick not intro is myxolydian as well because of the B constantly ringing with the pulloff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb-Yxb7mGAg
The progression is a F9 to something with a B shape I think Badd9 with an F in the bass.
which is mixolydian and so is the solo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdgvrqqigPw
The Riddle intro is lydian because the bass is just pounding two Es in octave to each.

the title explains my question.

EDIT:going crazy (first link) wasn't V IV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqog63KOANc
also lydian!
Last edited by liampje at Jun 2, 2011,
#2
No - they definitely don't. They make up much less than 1% of western music.

1% is saying 1 in 100 songs are written modally a quick look at the billboard top 100 over the past few weeks will reveal none are modal. A quick look down the list of artists in my iTunes: AC/DC, Aerosmith, the Animals - none of whom have written properly modal music.

Also note the difference between modal music and a riff written "in a mode".
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Last edited by doive at Jun 2, 2011,
#3
Hell, as long as its diatonic, surely that counts as being in a mode? Ionian and Aeolian are modes too, under the pseudonyms of minor and major.
#4
Geez mate, you still don't get it.

There's so many simple errors that you'll continue to make if you don't fix them. If a song had a solo over IV V, it would still have an I or i, eradicating any possibility that the song is modal.

Here's a new rule for you! If a song has more than two chords, it's not modal. Nice? Ok.
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#5
Quote by AlanHB
Geez mate, you still don't get it.

There's so many simple errors that you'll continue to make if you don't fix them. If a song had a solo over IV V, it would still have an I or i, eradicating any possibility that the song is modal.

Here's a new rule for you! If a song has more than two chords, it's not modal. Nice? Ok.

I think theres some confusion over the definition of modal.

OP seems to be asking about how much of modern western music uses the modes in places for harmonic interest, if i'm not mistaken.

You appear to have misapprehended the OP and are talking about pre-Renaissance modal music, where the lack of musical guidelines led to many compositions being white key only, in a sense, in that they would play in modes all the time without knowledge or full understanding of the ideas behind them due to sticking to non-accidental notes, accompanied by the simple chord progressions you mentioned.

However, the number of chords a song contains has no relevance whatsoever to whether it is modal or not.
Last edited by mishax92 at Jun 2, 2011,
#6
Quote by AlanHB
Geez mate, you still don't get it.

There's so many simple errors that you'll continue to make if you don't fix them. If a song had a solo over IV V, it would still have an I or i, eradicating any possibility that the song is modal.

Here's a new rule for you! If a song has more than two chords, it's not modal. Nice? Ok.

I made a mistake it's Vsus4 to a V.
But still if he solos against a progression that's only that Vsus4 to V wouldn't it be mixolydian?
He doesn't play a I chord during the solo.
So the song isn't tonal because it doesn't resolve to I and the song isn't modal either because there is still a I so what's it going to be?
#7
Quote by mishax92
I think theres some confusion over the definition of modal.

OP seems to be asking about how much of modern western music uses the modes in places for harmonic interest, if i'm not mistaken.

You appear to have misapprehended the OP and are talking about pre-Renaissance modal music, where the lack of musical guidelines led to many compositions being white key only, in a sense, in that they would play in modes all the time without knowledge or full understanding of the ideas behind them due to sticking to non-accidental notes, accompanied by the simple chord progressions you mentioned.

However, the number of chords a song contains has no relevance whatsoever to whether it is modal or not.

Is that post for me or for the dude you was quoting?
Because I know what the idea behind a mode is.
It's actually pretending for like lydian your root is F but still remaining withing the notes of C major.
That would make up an altered scale with a sharp 4 right?
This gives you a different sound because of it's 4 notes a whole step apart.
Ow and I found another example that's lydian the simpsons theme song =p.
#8
The simpsons theme isn't in the lydian mode, it's clever use of accidentals, whole tone scales, modulations etc that give a particular sound.


Stop thinking about modes, start thinking about harmony, followed by advanced harmony.
#9
If you're playing over the V chord, then you're playing over the V chord. No need to bring modes into this- it's just asking for a ribbing.
#10
You're seeing and hearing them because you're looking for them. If you take a tiny snippet of any song and isolate it you can see any number of scales or modes in there if you look hard enough - but the very fact that your looking at a snippet in isolation and ignoring the bigger picture makes your analysis redundant.
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#11
I don't understand why people on this website have such an obsession with modes
#12
Quote by liampje
I made a mistake it's Vsus4 to a V.
But still if he solos against a progression that's only that Vsus4 to V wouldn't it be mixolydian?
He doesn't play a I chord during the solo.
So the song isn't tonal because it doesn't resolve to I and the song isn't modal either because there is still a I so what's it going to be?


It does resolve to the I. Just because it's not played in a small section of a song doesn't mean that it doesn't resolve there. By virtue of even use of a "V", you are suggesting that the song will resolve to I. Your basics are lacking.

Is this really a return to form for you? I'm not liking it if it is.

Edit: And is it true that only 1% of western music is modal? No this is not true. It's closer to 0.000001% of songs, and every song that you've mentioned on this site before (and probably after) this thread is also not modal.
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#13
Quote by AlanHB

Here's a new rule for you! If a song has more than two chords, it's not modal. Nice? Ok.


Well I would apply a small fix to that (which is basically correct)
If a song has more than two chords in the same key, it's not modal.

classic modal tunes such as miles davis "so what" or john coltrane's "impressions" have 2 chords D-7 and Eb-7
#14
Quote by AlanHB
It does resolve to the I. Just because it's not played in a small section of a song doesn't mean that it doesn't resolve there. By virtue of even use of a "V", you are suggesting that the song will resolve to I. Your basics are lacking.

Is this really a return to form for you? I'm not liking it if it is.


too right.

and to Liamje: if your looking at getting a percent of western music that uses modes, try to pick them from a bit more varying places/people. hell, 100% of western music is based on modes if all i pick is steve vai.
#15
I'd like to split hairs, and say that all western music is based off modes. It just so happens that the Ionian is being a greedy b**ch.
And modal CONCEPTS have their use. When soloing over a jazz progression you'll see a Dm, G, and CMaj. To solo you'd play in CMaj, but for a short time your actually playing D Dorian, G Mixolydian, and C Ionian. So really tiny snipets are in modes, which help you to pick out notes.
Not to mention we must be talking about modern Western music, cause back in the day before the Ionian mode was a major deal(bad pun), Lute players would pick a mode for each song.
While naming modes as king is just wrong, saying they are useless is just as wrong.
#16
Quote by ^-^
I When soloing over a jazz progression you'll see a Dm, G, and CMaj. To solo you'd play in CMaj, but for a short time your actually playing D Dorian, G Mixolydian, and C Ionian.


your statement is implying CST, which is a relative new implementation of modes into the improvisation.

I disagree, most jazzers will play the c major tonal center and target the chord notes especially the guide notes (3rd and 7th) to reflect the changes.
#17
yes, modal music makes up exactly 1% of western music.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 2, 2011,
#18
Quote by mishax92
Hell, as long as its diatonic, surely that counts as being in a mode? Ionian and Aeolian are modes too, under the pseudonyms of minor and major.



Mmmmmmmmmm

Not really .. because the Ionian and Aeolian modes were used with a very different texture -- monophonic or simple polyphonic with a drone.

As soon as composers got adventurous with keys and musical texture started to change, playing a major or minor piece didn't sound like modal music at all. Not only was there a change in texture, there was a change in the tessitura, rhythm, timbre, etc.

Most importantly, composers where using the full plate of harmonies available in a key -- when we speak of harmonizing a major or a minor scale we are already leaving modal music for the broader concept of key.

If you want to hear contemporary modal music you have to listen to certain folk musics ... e.g. Irish Uilleann pipes, Appalachian hand dulcimer, the Hurdy Gurdy and plenty of others that really are modal.
#19
Quote by Zen Skin

Not really .. because the Ionian and Aeolian modes were used with a very different texture -- monophonic or simple polyphonic with a drone.


I'm not going to get into the modality vs. tonality thing again, I've probably got 70 posts on the stuff already. The only thing I will say is that modality is not only encompassed by monophonic or simple polyphonic textures. Listen to Ockeghem or Josquin and try to say, in good conscience, that the harmonic texture is simple. If you can, you're probably a sociopath. Simplicity does not define modality/tonality, function does.

*recedes back into the darkness*



P.S. What a strange statistic... 1% indeed.
#20
Firstly isn't the Simpsons theme in Lydian Dominant ? Anyway, solos and such can use modes however the music isn't considered 'modal' in the traditional sense.

For instance; Steve Vai uses a great deal of Lydian in his playing and soloing however his progressions have clear resolutions to a root (I / i) as Alan mentioned earlier.

Just because you can use the scale of a mode it doesn't make the music modal, you could just look at it like he was using a major scale with a #4 although this is the formula for the Lydian SCALE the music isn't modal.
Last edited by Zanon at Jun 2, 2011,
#21
Quote by ^-^
I'd like to split hairs, and say that all western music is based off modes. It just so happens that the Ionian is being a greedy b**ch.
And modal CONCEPTS have their use. When soloing over a jazz progression you'll see a Dm, G, and CMaj. To solo you'd play in CMaj, but for a short time your actually playing D Dorian, G Mixolydian, and C Ionian. So really tiny snipets are in modes, which help you to pick out notes.
Not to mention we must be talking about modern Western music, cause back in the day before the Ionian mode was a major deal(bad pun), Lute players would pick a mode for each song.
While naming modes as king is just wrong, saying they are useless is just as wrong.


not tryin to be a prick, but that's wrong. happy birthday is in the major key, not the myxolydian just because it starts on that note. similarly, your not using a no==mode just because you change to that chord. if you have V-I-V-I your not changing to myxolydian every time. not even close.
#22
Using mode names to explain note choices over chords does not mean you are playing modally.
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this man hits the nail on the head.
#23
Quote by liampje
Hey all.
Yes I know another modes topic by me.
But I heard an overflow of modes lately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35JYMFfEKf4
The solo is mixolydian in there and the progression is a vamp Vsus4 to V.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKmYlnQv_dg
In here the main lick not intro is myxolydian as well because of the B constantly ringing with the pulloff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb-Yxb7mGAg
The progression is a F9 to something with a B shape I think Badd9 with an F in the bass.
which is mixolydian and so is the solo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdgvrqqigPw
The Riddle intro is lydian because the bass is just pounding two Es in octave to each.

the title explains my question.

EDIT:going crazy (first link) wasn't V IV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqog63KOANc
also lydian!


Cool story bro.

But to answer your question I think it is much less that that 1%. The last modal song I found was by the Flaming Lips.

As for the rest of your post, it's incorrect.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jun 2, 2011,
#24
Use mode shapes to visualize accidentals, but be aware of the fact that doesn't make your music modal. The people who bark at you for being 100% wrong are idiots for sending you further down the rabbit whole by not trying to acknowledge where you are right and boldy stating where you are wrong. Look up Corwinoid's post on modes, get it through your head that a mode is independant of key and thus chord "progressions". Look up Indian Ragas, just for a comparison. And pick up an issue of Guitar World with a Paul Gilbert lesson in it, and come to the conclussion I did-if AlanHB is 100% right on modes, Paul Gilbert is 100% wrong. I'm gonna go with Gilbert.

You will also see that most musicians, even t3h Shr33d3rz, have no use for modes (well, maybe when using Pitch Axis Theory).
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Last edited by Sobriquet at Jun 2, 2011,
#25
Quote by Sobriquet
And pick up an issue of Guitar World with a Paul Gilbert lesson in it, and come to the conclussion I did-if AlanHB is 100% right on modes, Paul Gilbert is 100% wrong. I'm gonna go with Gilbert.


Any reason given? It would be interesting to see that article on Paul Gilbert and modal songs, as I've never seen him play one before.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#26
The thing is modes were created a long time ago by the Greeks, before musical concepts such as "chords" and such things involving harmony were invented. The purpose of modes was for singers in choirs to all sing the exact same single note lines. That's why when you introduce chords into this it just doesn't work as well.
#27
Quote by AlanHB
It does resolve to the I. Just because it's not played in a small section of a song doesn't mean that it doesn't resolve there. By virtue of even use of a "V", you are suggesting that the song will resolve to I. Your basics are lacking.

Is this really a return to form for you? I'm not liking it if it is.

Edit: And is it true that only 1% of western music is modal? No this is not true. It's closer to 0.000001% of songs, and every song that you've mentioned on this site before (and probably after) this thread is also not modal.

If you listen to the complete song almost the complete song is build up of like 2 finger picking riffs and that Vsus4 V progression.
#28
Quote by liampje
If you listen to the complete song almost the complete song is build up of like 2 finger picking riffs and that Vsus4 V progression.


Write out the chords to the full song.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#29
Quote by Reagar
I don't understand why people on this website have such an obsession with modes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMMkqBCW8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE0qLKHnflo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDq2_CQhTR4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-DbaaI4wc
Why do so many famous guitarists teach about modes if it is shit?
Last video with Vinnie Moore he says it's really important.
#30
Quote by AlanHB
Write out the chords to the full song.

The riff goes if you write it out in chords Vsus4 V then he plays some notes that's all.
Btw why won't you just listen to the song yourself you can hear that it's not modal and that it does resolve to the I.
#31
Quote by liampje
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMMkqBCW8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE0qLKHnflo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDq2_CQhTR4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-DbaaI4wc
Why do so many famous guitarists teach about modes if it is shit?
Last video with Vinnie Moore he says it's really important.

That Vinnie Moore video is hilarious. "Most guitar players out there don't have a clue about what modes are." He should count himself in that group.

He also says "I'm going to use the key of C major..." It's safe to say he is does not know about modes.

I've didn't watch the other vids, but I'm sure they do the same thing. Explain how modes are related to the major scale. That's it. That's the problem with guitarists. They think modes are the best thing ever, then go on the internet and listen to any schmuck who says "modes" and think they are better guitar players now that they know modes.

Good guitar playing =/= knowing theory
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Last edited by rockingamer2 at Jun 2, 2011,
#32
Quote by liampje

Why do so many famous guitarists teach about modes if it is shit?

Same reason why said guitarists are shitty composers.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#33
Quote by AlanHB
Any reason given? It would be interesting to see that article on Paul Gilbert and modal songs, as I've never seen him play one before.


Video at http://www.guitarworld.com/paul-gilbert-lesson-using-alternate-picking-play-arpeggiated-patterns-shred-alert-1-december-2008

Pertinent section about 5 1/2 minutes in?

Not sure who's right, wrong or indifferent because I know F**k all about 'modes', so I'll not take sides on this one.

If you do a search there for "Paul Gilbert modes" there are several hits. Have fun.

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Same reason why said guitarists are shitty composers.


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Last edited by Arby911 at Jun 2, 2011,
#34
Quote by liampje
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMMkqBCW8Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE0qLKHnflo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDq2_CQhTR4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-DbaaI4wc
Why do so many famous guitarists teach about modes if it is shit?
Last video with Vinnie Moore he says it's really important.



Well, modes aren't shit, they're scales. They are important if you want to utilize their sound in your music.

Incidentally, I feel those videos made by the late 80's shredder gods are at least in part responsible for all of the misunderstandings you see today regarding modes.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 2, 2011,
#35
Quote by Xiaoxi
Same reason why said guitarists are shitty composers.

Did you just call Dave Weiner and Joe Satriani shitty composers?!
#36
Quote by liampje
The riff goes if you write it out in chords Vsus4 V then he plays some notes that's all.
Btw why won't you just listen to the song yourself you can hear that it's not modal and that it does resolve to the I.


Oh I know this song. I regard Eat Em and Smile as one of the best hair metal albums of all time, closely behind Pornograffetti. I would have heard the album at least 100 times.

But this has nothing to with the fact that you don't know what a modal song is, and it appears you don't know what "resolves" means either. It HAS to resolve to the I or i, because it's the I / i. It mayn't be played, but it still resolves there.

Really dude, analyse simpler songs until you have a proper grasp on songs in keys before straying into mode land.

Quote by Arby911
Stuff


I put "paul gilbert modes" into youtube, and all the hits I received were not modal. Unfortunately the link you gave me appeared to be for picking exercises and I couldn't fast-forward through it to find the part you're talking about.

See, one of the reasons I love Paul Gilbert is that he is a big fan of pop music, and has a great melodic feel through his playing. I have never seen him talk about modes, instead he talks about the major and minor scales. This isn't surprising, because he doesn't play modal music (that I have seen). This is probably because writing non-modal music gives you far more freedom to write, and also Paul gets to take inspiration from pop music, which are modal only in extremely rare circumstances.
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#37
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well, modes aren't shit, they're scales. They are important if you want to utilize their sound in your music.

Incidentally, I feel those videos made by the late 80's shredder gods are at least in part responsible for all of the misunderstandings you see today regarding modes.

Yes but people here say modes are shit etc.
I love the modes how Vai plays them, as far as he plays the modes.
I don't know if Vai plays modes I don't give a shit but if someone could explain me what a different name is for what most people call Lydian.
I see the modes as one big scale used in different flavors.
Like D dorian has a sharp 6th and all that giving it less of a minor ambience, I think of it in both that way and as a relative to C major.
#38
Quote by AlanHB
Oh I know this song. I regard Eat Em and Smile as one of the best hair metal albums of all time, closely behind Pornograffetti. I would have heard the album at least 100 times.

But this has nothing to with the fact that you don't know what a modal song is, and it appears you don't know what "resolves" means either. It HAS to resolve to the I or i, because it's the I / i. It mayn't be played, but it still resolves there.

Really dude, analyse simpler songs until you have a proper grasp on songs in keys before straying into mode land.


I put "paul gilbert modes" into youtube, and all the hits I received were not modal. Unfortunately the link you gave me appeared to be for picking exercises and I couldn't fast-forward through it to find the part you're talking about.

See, one of the reasons I love Paul Gilbert is that he is a big fan of pop music, and has a great melodic feel through his playing. I have never seen him talk about modes, instead he talks about the major and minor scales. This isn't surprising, because he doesn't play modal music (that I have seen). This is probably because writing non-modal music gives you far more freedom to write, and also Paul gets to take inspiration from pop music, which are modal only in extremely rare circumstances.

I'm hear to foreclose your dream. hehe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQiTGO2V5k
2:10
#39
Quote by liampje
I'm hear to foreclose your dream. hehe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQiTGO2V5k
2:10


Yeah it looks like he used the lydian scale for Technical Difficulties riff. But it's still not a modal song.

But hey he also gives a hint to you my friend! What does he tell you to write down at 2.03? I believe he's talking to you.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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