#1
I'm debating the cheapest solution to get a killer metal tone and instead of changing my mediocre 100W SS fender frontman for a tube amp I'm willing to consider a preamp pedal like the Seymour Duncan twin tube mayhem. I've been told you should avoid power tube overdrive for metal so it leads me to wonder why I really need a tube amp in the first place and can't just do it with one of those pedals, that are getting really good reviews. Unfortunately I live in Chile and can't try before I buy, since it would be an overseas order if I get it. I'm relying on you good people to show me the path to glorious bone shattering metal tone that ranges from the classics of the 70s to modern stuff like Mastodon or Opeth.

Other gear:

PRS mahogany guitar w/ humbuckers
Boss overdrive/distortion
Boss noise suppressor
Boss 7-band EQ
#2
You have a PRS... and you use Boss pedals.

Sigh... I won't judge, but it makes me wonder.

Anyways to answer your question.

Wampler Triple Wreck.
Quote by Blompcube
it's so cool to hate Gibson, even the federal Department of Justice hates them.

( )( )
( . .) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
C('')('') signature to help him gain world domination.
#3
It's just a PRS SE model dude. Still a sweet guitar IMO. And the whole point of this thread is to upgrade my rig, so obviously the Boss pedals aren't cutting it.
#4
Cheapest solution to getting a better metal tone = Wampler Triple Wreck

Better solution to getting an even better metal tone = Bugera 6262

An even better solution to getting a much better metal tone = Bugera TriRec / Magician

A much better solution to getting an even better metal tone = Peavey XXX / Ultra / 6505 / 6505+

My solution to getting the metal tone I am thinking right now = MesaBoogie Single / Dual / Triple Rectifier / Mark IV or V

Take your pick.

Going used will help with the prices.
Quote by Blompcube
it's so cool to hate Gibson, even the federal Department of Justice hates them.

( )( )
( . .) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
C('')('') signature to help him gain world domination.
#6
Quote by TheQuailman
I'll tell you what I told you yesterday: Your tone stands and falls with your amp. No exceptions.



Nonsense.

Were that the be-all and end-all, we wouldn't have, or need, all the other wonderful pre-amp devices that currently exist.
#7
Quote by Arby911
Nonsense.

Were that the be-all and end-all, we wouldn't have, or need, all the other wonderful pre-amp devices that currently exist.

and all those wonderful preamp devices sound shit through shit amps

the duck is right...
#8
Quote by Arby911
Nonsense.

Were that the be-all and end-all, we wouldn't have, or need, all the other wonderful pre-amp devices that currently exist.



He is simply saying that if your amp sucks your tone will suck even if you have $1000 in pedals in front and looped.
#9
pedals with a tube in it tend to be more gimicky then practical. the tubes aren't run with enough plate voltage to make them really work properly. don't know what idiot told you that powertube distortion doesn't make for a great metal tone, it does. it's often not practical because of the volume needed to push them but that doesn't make them less valid.

dude hate to say this but any fender amp really isn't going to yield a "great metal tone" even the tube ones. sure the tube ones can have a pedal slapped in from of them but cleans to mild distorted tones is what they are best at. get yourself an EH Metal Muff that will get you an acceptable meta tone with what you have but don't expect killer with your current amp.
#10
Quote by Arby911
Nonsense.

Were that the be-all and end-all, we wouldn't have, or need, all the other wonderful pre-amp devices that currently exist.

Which do jack all unless they're plugged into a power-amp and speakers that are equally suitable for whatever application is intended.
You might have noticed that "pre-amp" contains the word "amp", meaning it is part of a setup we call an amplifier. You still need other parts to assemble the whole thing. A pre-amp is not a magical piece of kit that grants teh br00tz toans on it's own. If it's plugged into a crappy power amp with crappy speakers, it'll still sound crappy.


EDIT: I think all in all, Kitty got it right. A proper dirt pedal is the cheapest solution, but not a good one - maybe a sufficient one though. Good call on the XXX, too, I didn't even think of it in the ts' last thread, and it seems like a very good solution.
Last edited by TheQuailman at Jun 2, 2011,
#11
Quote by TheQuailman
You might have noticed that "pre-amp" contains the word "amp", meaning it is part of a setup we call an amplifier.


You're parsing...

Because you, I and everybody here know that the pedals we put in the signal chain are NOT commonly considered 'part' of the amplifier, although yes technically they all amplify/modify/alter the signal in some fashion.

My point is simply that a good 'cleans' amp that will not reproduce quality distortion on it's own can still be used to that purpose given a quality pedal up front.

It's not 'all' the amp, or at least it needn't be.

I'll concede the absolute validity of your (clarified) point if it keeps us from arguing?
#12
It's GG&A, the answer is always "get a better amp". Where's your head at?
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#13
Quote by TheQuailman
EDIT: I think all in all, Kitty got it right. A proper dirt pedal is the cheapest solution, but not a good one - maybe a sufficient one though. Good call on the XXX, too, I didn't even think of it in the ts' last thread, and it seems like a very good solution.


Make the best of a bad situation, in this case.

I think the XXX is often under-rated for its versatility here in UG, it unfortunately gets lots of recommendations for progressive metal, or brighter high gain sounds. A lot of UGers can't see that it actually has great cleans and can do a relatively good modern sound.

One of my favoured amps on a mid-range budget.
Quote by Blompcube
it's so cool to hate Gibson, even the federal Department of Justice hates them.

( )( )
( . .) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
C('')('') signature to help him gain world domination.
#14
Quote by Arby911

My point is simply that a good 'cleans' amp that will not reproduce quality distortion on it's own can still be used to that purpose given a quality pedal up front.


Finally somebody that doesn't think I should chunk my amp apparently. Kirk Hammet plays through his amp's clean channel with a pedal and gets an amazing sound. And Dimebag used an SS amp head.

Could it be that there are different ways of doing things? If not, we'd all sound the same.
#15
Also JSX. Best deal for a metal amp imo. Used to have one, sold it for my Mesa but I loved it to death.
G&L Legacy
Gibson SG Standard
Ibanez RG20thDY
Ibanez RG25thFP
Agile Septor Elite 727
Fender Evil Twin / Mesa 412
EVH 5150 III Mini / Avatar 212


#16
Quote by gypsyblues
And Dimebag used an SS amp head.
.


Thanks for illustrating the point. Shit amp=shit tone even with 2 Eq pedals trying to fix it
Ibanez SIR27
Pod HD500x

RIP:
Mesa Boogie Roadster 2x12 combo
Cmatmods analog chorus, phaser, tremoglo, signa drive, butah, and deeelay
walrus Audio Descent
#17
Quote by Arby911
It's not 'all' the amp, or at least it needn't be.

Absolutely. But you said "pre-amp", and imo it's moot to argue whether it makes a difference if the distortion-generating circuitry is in an amp or in a seperate box.


Quote by Arby911

My point is simply that a good 'cleans' amp that will not reproduce quality distortion on it's own can still be used to that purpose given a quality pedal up front.

This is where you are wrong - but it depends to a big part on what kind of distortion we're talking about, particularly how heavy the sound needs to be. Since the ts asked for advice concerning metal, let's go with that.

Compare two amps, let's say a Fender Blackface Twin combo and a Marshall JCM800 plus a matching closed-back cabinet. The former has great cleans, while the latter has rather mediocre ones. If an amp's capability to produce good cleans is our main criterion for determining whether it will sound good with dirt pedals, the Twin should come out on top here.
Yet, we experience the exact opposite: The Fender does take pedals nicely, but does not match the Marshall's definition and sheer force. Not by a long shot. (Assuming both amps have the same pedal(s) in front of them, the Marshall being set clean of course).

My point? Clean and distorted tones require a different frequency-response to sound good, with clean tones profitting from extended treble and lots of bass, while distorted tones can only be played with limited amounts of treble/bass before turning fizzy and harsh/woofy and muddy. The other way around, if you restrict a clean tone's frequency-rage too much, it sounds honky. This is just very general and a lot also depends on what frequencies get distorted and how the tone is shaped after distortion, etc.
All in all, good cleans are not necessarily the best basis for distortion, while an amp that has a suitable frequency-response for distortion may not sound great clean - it just so happens that usually, amps which handle dirt well often can provide it on their own.
It's also a bit subjective, but I guess that's a given.

Sorry for all the babbling, but I see this misconception a lot and it grinds my gears a bit.
Last edited by TheQuailman at Jun 2, 2011,
#18
Quote by gypsyblues
Finally somebody that doesn't think I should chunk my amp apparently. Kirk Hammet plays through his amp's clean channel with a pedal and gets an amazing sound. And Dimebag used an SS amp head.

Could it be that there are different ways of doing things? If not, we'd all sound the same.

He was talking about a good clean amp, which is btw not guaranteed to give you great distortion with a pedal - and even if it was, the Frontman isn't a good amp, clean or whatever.

Kirk Hammett mostly uses amps that even without a pedal would sound great for high-gain.


Seriously, do you want advice or just your opinion confirmed? Because using a Frontman for metal is something I'd be hard pressed to recommend. Sure you can do it, but it's probably one of the worst possible options.
#19
Quote by ragingkitty
Cheapest solution to getting a better metal tone = Wampler Triple Wreck

Better solution to getting an even better metal tone = Bugera 6262

An even better solution to getting a much better metal tone = Bugera TriRec / Magician

A much better solution to getting an even better metal tone = Peavey XXX / Ultra / 6505 / 6505+

My solution to getting the metal tone I am thinking right now = MesaBoogie Single / Dual / Triple Rectifier / Mark IV or V

Take your pick.

Going used will help with the prices.


But the TriRec and Magician arnt even out yet.
#20
Quote by TheQuailman

This is where you are wrong - but it depends to a big part on what kind of distortion we're talking about, particularly how heavy the sound needs to be. Since the ts asked for advice concerning metal, let's go with that.

Compare two amps, let's say a Fender Blackface Twin combo and a Marshall JCM800 plus a matching closed-back cabinet. The former has great cleans, while the latter has rather mediocre ones. If an amp's capability to produce good cleans is our main criterion for determining whether it will sound good with dirt pedals, the Twin should come out on top here.
Yet, we experience the exact opposite: The Fender does take pedals nicely, but does not match the Marshall's definition and sheer force. Not by a long shot. (Assuming both amps have the same pedal(s) in front of them, the Marshall being set clean of course).

My point? Clean and distorted tones require a different frequency-response to sound good, with clean tones profitting from extended treble and lots of bass, while distorted tones can only be played with limited amounts of treble/bass before turning fizzy and harsh/woofy and muddy. The other way around, if you restrict a clean tone's frequency-rage too much, it sounds honky. This is just very general and a lot also depends on what frequencies get distorted and how the tone is shaped after distortion, etc.
All in all, good cleans are not necessarily the best basis for distortion, while an amp that has a suitable frequency-response for distortion may not sound great clean - it just so happens that usually, amps which handle dirt well often can provide it on their own.
It's also a bit subjective, but I guess that's a given.

Sorry for all the babbling, but I see this misconception a lot and it grinds my gears a bit.

I totally agree with this actually, i've found my peavey ultra plus to be really good at taking dirt pedals (the clean channel isnt bad for a high gainer but yeahh its no fender) but for most purposes they are not really required. haha its good for a 4th sound though since the crunch channel is higher gain then most i use it for my ratt and the utlra channel for br00tz.. then whack an overdrive pedal on the clean on the rare occasion i wanna play bl00zak..
#21
Quote by Cathbard
It's GG&A, the answer is always "get a better amp". Where's your head at?


Usually a reason for that though. Generally the people that need gear help have terrible rigs to begin with.
#22
Quote by guitarpatrick66
But the TriRec and Magician arnt even out yet.


http://www.dv247.com/guitars/bugera-trirec-valve-guitar-amplifier-head--73067

While the Magician isn't out it, I think its sound should be fairly obvious. I put it there cuz I doubt the TS will be able to go out and buy it immediately.
Quote by Blompcube
it's so cool to hate Gibson, even the federal Department of Justice hates them.

( )( )
( . .) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
C('')('') signature to help him gain world domination.