#1
Hey all,
My ride cymbal finally bit the dust and cracked to hell. It was a very old Premier ride, about 20". I expected it to go eventually, so I'm not bitter. However, I had no crash (the extra abuse probably led to my ride breaking faster) So now I'm just about out of cymbals, except for my hi-hats. I planned to get a new ride, but was thinking, if I get a crash too, would that essentially make my ride last longer, because I'd be using it as a crash much less, so the wear and tear would be shared between the two? Do you think this would be a better investment, in the long run?

If it matters, I was considering Zildjian, between having ogled them in music stores and from my drum tutor's recommendation. If any of you have any good recommendations, shout it out. But, I want to avoid spending too much, though I know with musical instruments, price often equals quality. Lets say, no more than £200, but preferably around £150 for the pair.

Potential candidates:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/zildjian_20_zbt_rock_ride.htm
http://www.thomann.de/gb/zildjian_14zbt_crash.htm
Rotten Playground
Listen to me and Jameh muck about on a podcast
as if you have anything better to do.


Quote by Reverend_Taco
Grass stains on my dicks

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Pfft. Gay? Nah, gay is the manliest sex that exists.
Last edited by HeretiK538 at Jun 4, 2011,
#2
Rides aren't mean to be crashed on for a reason. Using it for an extra accent once in a while is OK, but rides are a lot thicker than crashes and as such don't "give" as much. Crashes are thinner accordingly-- even a 20" crash is a lot lighter than a 20" ride.

tl;dr Use crashes as crashes, that's what they're made for. You really shouldn't be breaking cymbals as it is, so I would suggest paying attention to how tight you have them clamped, and then also seeing if the angle of the cymbals is good, and if you're hitting them properly.

On topic, ZBTs are okay but IMO, Meinl HCS/MCS and Sabian B8s are better. I've tried that ZBT ride in person (on someone's kit, not just in a store) and while the bell didn't sound bad, the ride itself had WAY too much wash and the stick definition was pretty dull-sounding. My B8 ride and an HCS ride that I played about a week ago trounced it.

In terms of crashes, ZBTs aren't too good either, I like my B8s a lot more.

Anyway, yes, your ride will last longer, although they're never supposed to break considering most of the time one just plays them like a hi-hat, but really, cymbals are not supposed to break as it is.
Last edited by Steve08 at Jun 4, 2011,
#3
Quote by Steve08
Rides aren't mean to be crashed on for a reason. Using it for an extra accent once in a while is OK, but rides are a lot thicker than crashes and as such don't "give" as much. Crashes are thinner accordingly-- even a 20" crash is a lot lighter than a 20" ride.

tl;dr Use crashes as crashes, that's what they're made for. You really shouldn't be breaking cymbals as it is, so I would suggest paying attention to how tight you have them clamped, and then also seeing if the angle of the cymbals is good, and if you're hitting them properly.

On topic, ZBTs are okay but IMO, Meinl HCS/MCS and Sabian B8s are better. I've tried that ZBT ride in person (on someone's kit, not just in a store) and while the bell didn't sound bad, the ride itself had WAY too much wash and the stick definition was pretty dull-sounding. My B8 ride and an HCS ride that I played about a week ago trounced it.


Agreed on both counts. I smashed a Z custom ages ago as a beginner but when i got my new one (free, thankfully) i made sure not to make the same mistake and sorted my technique. 2 years later, it's still fine.

I used to have a ZBT ride. It really wasn't good. I wouldn't reccomend them. Unfortunately i think thomann has really shot up in cost because of the euro exchange rate. I certainly wouldn't pay that much for one. I sold my ZBT ride for like £17 or something lol. You should try looking at used cymbals in good condition. Everything new seems like a ripoff these days.
EH


"Show me war; show me pestilence; show me the blood-red hands of retribution..."
#4
I've only been playing for about 9 months, but my kit was handed down from my sister, after about 2 years in cold storage, so it's probably about 6 years old, and not kept well. I suppose it's better to learn that on an old ride rather than a spangly new one. Ah well.

All of the Sabians seem a little too expensive for my price range, but the Meinl cymbals seem much cheaper than the ones I was looking at without much difference in quality. I'll explore some more and report back

Edit: Steve's suggestion of the Meinl HCS cymbals seems pretty good. I like the sound of them, and the price is very gentle, which is a plus. Is there anything else I should be thinking about as a newbie drum shopper? I'll need to get a stand for the crash, but that shouldn't be too important
Rotten Playground
Listen to me and Jameh muck about on a podcast
as if you have anything better to do.


Quote by Reverend_Taco
Grass stains on my dicks

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Pfft. Gay? Nah, gay is the manliest sex that exists.
Last edited by HeretiK538 at Jun 5, 2011,
#5
Playing devil's advocate:
Rides not made to crash? This all depends on your ride. Jazz drummers crash on their rides at times. Hardcore/punk drummers crash on rides all the time and some even use all rides. Bonham did it too. I could keep going. It doesn't matter what the cymbal is branded, its the way it's made. I wouldn't recommend trying to crash on a 22" powerbell ride. But if it's thin enough you can absolutely crash on it. The Sabian HHX Evolution ride is great for this. I used to use one as a crash exclusively.

It IS likely that because it was the only cymbal you were hitting that you might have shortened it's life span. It could also be your technique being that you're a beginner. I have obviously not seen you play. You want to make sure you're hitting the cymbal from the top not on the edge.

For now you should stick with cheap cymbals while you learn. In most cases none of those cheap cymbals really sound that good. I'm personally a Sabian guy so I would suggest the B8's. I also strongly suggest that you don't buy used if you can help it.

Some little known facts:
-Sabian's B8 and other companies "sheet metal" type of cymbals are actually stronger than the more expensive cast metal formulas.
-Many people play heavy cymbals so that they last longer but really if a cymbal is thinner it has more give under the stick and can actually help extend the life of the cymbal. Thinner cymbals also sound better.
#6
Guys, what you were saying about hitting the cymbals from the top and not from the edge, is basically what this guy should be looking at, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nniK9LTKfDo
It seems like he's hitting at the edge of the Hihat with the middle of the stick, instead of with the tip at the top (at times).
I'm sick of all
Your hypocrites
Holding me at bay
And I don't need
Your sympathy
To get me through the day


LONG LIVE DREAM
#7
What he is doing is fine. Right about 1:09 he's hitting the edge but he's not going perpendicular which is more what I was urging you to stay away from. How he hits there is actually a very common way to hit hi-hiats.
#8
Quote by inkandlead
Thinner cymbals also sound better.


In your opinion.
EH


"Show me war; show me pestilence; show me the blood-red hands of retribution..."
#9
Quote by eddiehimself
In your opinion.


Yeah, I guess. Thicker crashes don't have as quick of a response and can generally sound pingy and shrill. Good if you're looking for bright, define ride. Not so good if you want a crash. In my opinion.
#10
At the whole technique thing, I feel I've been crashing it right, from the top in a glancing blow, rather than just driving my stick straight into it from the side. Still, though, I could have been doing it wrong for a while before now, I haven't been too conscious of my technique. Regardless, I understand I shouldn't have been really crashing it so much at all, given it's a ride. Live and learn.

I've been considering a Sabian B8 16" crash, and a Meinl HCS 20" ride, thanks to your advice. I checked out some sound clips of both, and am fairly happy with the sound. The total for both is around £135, which gives me a little more to get a stand. That's a price I'm happy with. Is there anything else the drum forum could add, suggest, or otherwise has to say? Thanks for all your help I'll keep in mind the advice
Rotten Playground
Listen to me and Jameh muck about on a podcast
as if you have anything better to do.


Quote by Reverend_Taco
Grass stains on my dicks

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Pfft. Gay? Nah, gay is the manliest sex that exists.
#11
What are you thinking of that you might want/need? New sticks, possibly? Metronome? Isolation headphones/plugs? New heads/drum tuner?

Also, I should make a note that your cymbals should be tilted forward a bit, not directly perpendicular to the top of the stand. Cause then there's basically no chance that you'll hit the edge directly, but rather the body of the cymbal, and all cymbal cracks start from the edge (I think). For the hi-hats it doesn't matter, and in fact a lot of people will dig into the edge of the hi-hat for a more powerful accented sound. Nobody ever cracks hi-hats because they just... don't really work that way

Quote by inkandlead
Playing devil's advocate:
Rides not made to crash? This all depends on your ride. Jazz drummers crash on their rides at times. Hardcore/punk drummers crash on rides all the time and some even use all rides. Bonham did it too. I could keep going. It doesn't matter what the cymbal is branded, its the way it's made. I wouldn't recommend trying to crash on a 22" powerbell ride. But if it's thin enough you can absolutely crash on it. The Sabian HHX Evolution ride is great for this. I used to use one as a crash exclusively.
Those are all fair points. In jazz though, the crashes are usually fairly light and not a constant riding (like straight quarter/8th notes), not all the time but employing one like that would be atypical.

Also, I should clarify that I meant that while it's entirely possible crash on a ride, I personally wouldn't advise it for the reasons I listed though there are exceptions. To me, it makes no sense to get a ride when you want a crash, unless it's something like a Sabian Omni which is designed to literally be a crash + ride in the same cymbal.
#12
Quote by Steve08
In jazz though, the crashes are usually fairly light and not a constant riding (like straight quarter/8th notes), not all the time but employing one like that would be atypical.

Not as atypical as you think. A lot of jazz drummers I know don't use crash cymbals at all and just use a left side and a right side ride (and a hi-hat of course). They usually ride on both of them fairly equally, and I've seen people hit pretty hard on their left side ride before. Just because it's jazz doesn't mean people don't hit hard (just look at Buddy Rich ).

This is all in my opinion though of course.
#13
Quote by doomtron
Not as atypical as you think. A lot of jazz drummers I know don't use crash cymbals at all and just use a left side and a right side ride (and a hi-hat of course). They usually ride on both of them fairly equally, and I've seen people hit pretty hard on their left side ride before. Just because it's jazz doesn't mean people don't hit hard (just look at Buddy Rich ).

This is all in my opinion though of course.
Oh, I know, I dabble in jazz myself. But it's more common than not for ride-as-crash use to be fairly sparing.

And I meant, it's atypical for a jazz drummer to be crashing one like in rock/metal. It's usually just for a brief accent.
#14
Quote by Steve08
Oh, I know, I dabble in jazz myself. But it's more common than not for ride-as-crash use to be fairly sparing.

And I meant, it's atypical for a jazz drummer to be crashing one like in rock/metal. It's usually just for a brief accent.

Yeah, now I see what you mean. You usually don't crash quarter/eighth notes in jazz like you do in rock or metal
#15
Quote by Steve08
What are you thinking of that you might want/need? New sticks, possibly? Metronome? Isolation headphones/plugs? New heads/drum tuner?

Also, I should make a note that your cymbals should be tilted forward a bit, not directly perpendicular to the top of the stand. Cause then there's basically no chance that you'll hit the edge directly, but rather the body of the cymbal, and all cymbal cracks start from the edge (I think)


I've already got earplugs, metronomes, drum tuners, etc. I more meant, is there anything else about cymbals I should be considering, besides price, sound, and size?

And, I keep my ride cymbal fairly tilted, probably about 30 degrees towards me. On cymbals cracking, my drum teacher warned me that you should always keep cymbals fairly loose, otherwise the pressure on the center can cause cracks from there. I've always kept that in mind, so I keep it fairly loose, without going too far
Rotten Playground
Listen to me and Jameh muck about on a podcast
as if you have anything better to do.


Quote by Reverend_Taco
Grass stains on my dicks

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Pfft. Gay? Nah, gay is the manliest sex that exists.
#16
Quote by HeretiK538
I've already got earplugs, metronomes, drum tuners, etc. I more meant, is there anything else about cymbals I should be considering, besides price, sound, and size?

And, I keep my ride cymbal fairly tilted, probably about 30 degrees towards me. On cymbals cracking, my drum teacher warned me that you should always keep cymbals fairly loose, otherwise the pressure on the center can cause cracks from there. I've always kept that in mind, so I keep it fairly loose, without going too far
Oh, I gotcha. That's actually very good that you have all those things!

No, not really, that's mostly all there is to it. Size kind of correlates to sound as bigger cymbals will sound lower in pitch.

Although, personally I don't like the look of kits that have cymbals from a whole bunch of different brands, but that's just my preference. As an example, my favorite cymbal company is Meinl so in an ideal scenario all my cymbals would be Meinl. Which might be kinda weird, but eh. No care.
#17
I'm from a fairly musical household, so we already had metronomes and stuff, and, I've been playing for about a year now, and at some point, it's struck me that such items would come in handy. They all have, so I'm not complaining

I can see why you might prefer a uniform brand, but, frankly, I don't care about the look as much as how I sound, so I'm happy to go for lots of separate brands if it gets the sound/ price combo I want
Rotten Playground
Listen to me and Jameh muck about on a podcast
as if you have anything better to do.


Quote by Reverend_Taco
Grass stains on my dicks

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Pfft. Gay? Nah, gay is the manliest sex that exists.
Last edited by HeretiK538 at Jun 7, 2011,
#19
Quote by inkandlead
Yeah, I guess. Thicker crashes don't have as quick of a response and can generally sound pingy and shrill. Good if you're looking for bright, define ride. Not so good if you want a crash. In my opinion.


I think it really depends on what style you're going for. If you're a loud drummer like me, I personally find that medium weight cymbals are great because you don't have to really hit it hard like a heavy cymbal but unlike a thinner cymbal you can get a reasonable amount of volume out of it.
EH


"Show me war; show me pestilence; show me the blood-red hands of retribution..."
#20
They all arrived within about 2 days, two cymbals and the stand. I take back all my whining at the postal service So that's the Zildjian ZBT 20" ride and the Meinl HCS 14" Crash. The ride was, I confess, larger than I anticipated - I didn't quite grasp how big 20" was (I thought my last ride was 18", but it was only 16". I'm not good with imperial measurements!) However, it sounds very bright, and resonates a lot. Overall, I really like the impressive sounds I get from it, so I'm happy with it. It's certainly not suited to crashing it though, which is okay, cause the crash seems pretty good, too It's very fast and responsive, which is good, and sounds great played with the rest of the kit. My only concern is that the crash is very high-pitched, and the ride's relatively low - I've no cymbal in the middle ground. I guess I now know what I want next I am happy with my purchases. Thanks to all of you for your help
Rotten Playground
Listen to me and Jameh muck about on a podcast
as if you have anything better to do.


Quote by Reverend_Taco
Grass stains on my dicks

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Pfft. Gay? Nah, gay is the manliest sex that exists.
Last edited by HeretiK538 at Jun 9, 2011,
#21
Quote by HeretiK538
They all arrived within about 2 days, two cymbals and the stand. I take back all my whining at the postal service So that's the Zildjian ZBT 20" ride and the Meinl HCS 14" Crash. The ride was, I confess, larger than I anticipated - I didn't quite grasp how big 20" was (I thought my last ride was 18", but it was only 16". I'm not good with imperial measurements!)


That's not really a bad thing since they are pretty shit That sounds like a very small size for a ride cymbal but I suppose with it being a cheap kit they'll be willing to pass off any tiny old thing as a "ride" cymbal. Usually though ride cymbals are never below 18". Also as far as i'm concerned 14" is a splash cymbal lol but then again i do play loud music so really as long as you're not expecting it to be loud it should be fine.
EH


"Show me war; show me pestilence; show me the blood-red hands of retribution..."
#22
I don't care too much, just so long as I'm not gonna be damaging my kit while playing anymore xD I planned to head off to High Voltage festival this summer, but I've been struck by a bout of apathy, for some reason, so I may have an extra £100 lying around, plus whatever I can con out of my parents, so I'm considering buying yet another crash, to supplement my kit further, instead
Rotten Playground
Listen to me and Jameh muck about on a podcast
as if you have anything better to do.


Quote by Reverend_Taco
Grass stains on my dicks

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Pfft. Gay? Nah, gay is the manliest sex that exists.
#23
Quote by HeretiK538
I don't care too much, just so long as I'm not gonna be damaging my kit while playing anymore xD I planned to head off to High Voltage festival this summer, but I've been struck by a bout of apathy, for some reason, so I may have an extra £100 lying around, plus whatever I can con out of my parents, so I'm considering buying yet another crash, to supplement my kit further, instead


All i'm saying is if you're not getting the volume you want from it then don't hit it any harder because you won't get much more out of it and you'll just shorten the life of the cymbal. Crash cymbals don't really need to be hit very hard to get most of their volume out of them. If i'd known you were getting more money i would have reccomended you buy 2 better cymbals with that but seeing as you've already got what you've got now then a 16" crash would probably go quite well.
EH


"Show me war; show me pestilence; show me the blood-red hands of retribution..."
#24
I had the £150 in credit from some lovely wonderful parent ^_^ Thanks, Mum! Anyways, I didn't initially plan on getting anything else for a short while, I just feel there's something of a gap where a slightly larger crash would fit nicely. My bassist wants me to get a Double-Bass pedal at some point, but at my current ability, I figure it'd only be overzealous, so now I'm just left to sit and scheme with my cash
Rotten Playground
Listen to me and Jameh muck about on a podcast
as if you have anything better to do.


Quote by Reverend_Taco
Grass stains on my dicks

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Pfft. Gay? Nah, gay is the manliest sex that exists.