#1
So Ionian goes W-W-H-W-W-W-H

Someone explain briefly why in the Key of E, we go E, F#, G# and not F. Does the above pattern apply AFTER the tonic?
#3
because from E to F is a half step, so a full step up from E will be F#
#4
Okay, first things first. No need to call it Ionian, let's stick with Major Scale.

To answer your question; There are 12 notes in western music

C
C#/Db
D
D#/Eb
E
F
F#/Gb
G
G#/Ab
A
A#/Bb
B

Each of them are one half step (semi-tone) apart. There is only a half-step between E and F, however there is a whole-step between E and F#

So if we take the W-W-H-W-W-W-H pattern of a major scale in the key of E, we get:

E
F#
G#
A
B
C
D#
"Swords, nature's hell sticks."- Trip Fisk
#5
That is the step formula for the major scale (because you said key of E). The first "W" comes right after the tonic.

1 W 2 W 3 H 4 W 5 W 6 W 7 H 8

Quote by Skullivan
There is no E# or Fb.

Yes, there is.

Write out the C# major scale.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


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#6
Quote by rockingamer2
Yes, there is.

Write out the C# major scale.


Bam! You just got schooled by Thomas Jefferson!
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#7
Quote by kalman
because from E to F is a half step, so a full step up from E will be F#


Yep. Learn the notes before the scales mate.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#8
Quote by rockingamer2

Quote by Skullivan
There is no E# or Fb.

Yes, there is.

Write out the C# major scale.

This.

E# is another name for F, and Fb is another name for E. It just depends on the scale you're using, because when writing out a scale you only use each letter once.
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#9
Quote by mtforever
Okay, first things first. No need to call it Ionian, let's stick with Major Scale.

To answer your question; There are 12 notes in western music

C
C#/Db
D
D#/Eb
E
F
F#/Gb
G
G#/Ab
A
A#/Bb
B

Each of them are one half step (semi-tone) apart. There is only a half-step between E and F, however there is a whole-step between E and F#

So if we take the W-W-H-W-W-W-H pattern of a major scale in the key of E, we get:

E
F#
G#
A
B
C
D#


When constructing the chords, I notice that that C becomes C#min in the key of E, why not C minor? I don't know much about triads as I should.
#10
Quote by FlexEXP
When constructing the chords, I notice that that C becomes C#min in the key of E, why not C minor? I don't know much about triads as I should.


The scale was mistyped. E major is as follows:

E F# G# A B C# D#

Make a little more sense now?
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#11
Quote by FlexEXP
When constructing the chords, I notice that that C becomes C#min in the key of E, why not C minor? I don't know much about triads as I should.


C isn't in the key of E.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#13
Quote by jani92jani
Did you know that there are doublesharps as well, I you want to write Major 3rd interval from D# you have to write it D# Fx


fixed. but his point is correct.
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#14
You need to learn and understand your order for the musical alphabet. E to F# is a whole step.

Your primary flaw here is that you don't know all the half and whole step intervals, and that will get you lost every time. You need to learn the order of the musical alphabet. For now just work on scales A-G and dont start any with #'s or b's. Learn the basics first, before worrying about E#'s or double sharps etc, that tends to muddy the waters at this stage.

I'd back up a ways and get your musical alphabet down solid first.

Best,

Sean
#15
Quote by kumamilesbear
This.

E# is another name for F, and Fb is another name for E. It just depends on the scale you're using, because when writing out a scale you only use each letter once.

Okay, I'll correct myself. There is no note between E and F. I know there are people like you guys (not saying you guys are bad) that are very picky about your theory and choice of words. When explaining it to someone else, I say there is no E# or Fb in the chromatic scale. Whether this is technically true or not, I do not know. But in reality, there is no key between E and F or between B and C on a standard piano. Sorry for my, bad wording?
#16
Quote by Skullivan
Okay, I'll correct myself. There is no note between E and F. I know there are people like you guys (not saying you guys are bad) that are very picky about your theory and choice of words. When explaining it to someone else, I say there is no E# or Fb in the chromatic scale. Whether this is technically true or not, I do not know. But in reality, there is no key between E and F or between B and C on a standard piano. Sorry for my, bad wording?

I wouldn't call it picky, I'd call it giving out accurate information. Saying there is no E# or Fb will only result in problems down the road.

Also, why would you tell people something if you yourself do not know if it is correct?
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#17
Yeah I mean calling it picky isn't fair, there's a set organization to understanding the musical order that will save you every time because the system is 100 percent dependable. You have got to get the basics.

And if you say there are no E# or Fb in the CHROMATIC SCALE, you are absolutely correct. But in scales and triads, there are plenty...it's contextual. You have to understand the big picture.

It's like saying 1+2 is 4 and then saying, "well, I guess if you math guys wanna be picky...."

?

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jun 9, 2011,
#18
Quote by FlexEXP
When constructing the chords, I notice that that C becomes C#min in the key of E, why not C minor? I don't know much about triads as I should.


I made a typo with that, it's a C#
"Swords, nature's hell sticks."- Trip Fisk
#19
OKAY, EVERYONE FORGET WHAT I POSTED!!! THERE IS E# AND Fb!!! IS EVERYONE HAPPY NOW? DO YOU REALIZE HOW BAD I FEEL? I'm gonna leave the theory threads to Sean.
#21
I wouldnt call understanding when and why you should use E# basic, and I dont imagine that not telling the whole truth to someone learning the basics would really screw them up further down the road.

You spend five minutes explaining that the rules they learned earlier had some exceptions - their heads wont explode.

edit;

Happened all the time in school to me actually, eg learning stuff in chemistry in second year only to have a more in depth analysis in third year, discovering that theres more to it than I had thought - my mate who was in my class and is now doing chemisty at uni told me that half of what we learned wasnt strictly true. But the point is that the things we learned were correct as far as we had to understand, as far as we could actually use, and if it was taught to us in the beginning with all the intricacies and additional rules of my mates uni textbook then we would have been terrified and demotivated and our heads really would have exploded.

So in terms of explaining to a guitarist with a shaky understanding of notes / theory I would agree with the dude that said that the other dude was being picky.

Double Edit- I understand that you will disagree with me but different people have different ways of teaching. Although I know Sean is a teacher who often deals with this stuff I would be very surprised if any of the music/guitar teachers I had in high school were to correct someone explaining scales to a relative beginner who said that there was no E#, although my current guitar teacher would definitely pull you up for it.
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and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Last edited by Hydra150 at Jun 10, 2011,
#23
Quote by Hydra150
I wouldnt call understanding when and why you should use E# basic, and I dont imagine that not telling the whole truth to someone learning the basics would really screw them up further down the road.

You spend five minutes explaining that the rules they learned earlier had some exceptions - their heads wont explode.

edit;

Happened all the time in school to me actually, eg learning stuff in chemistry in second year only to have a more in depth analysis in third year, discovering that theres more to it than I had thought - my mate who was in my class and is now doing chemisty at uni told me that half of what we learned wasnt strictly true. But the point is that the things we learned were correct as far as we had to understand, as far as we could actually use, and if it was taught to us in the beginning with all the intricacies and additional rules of my mates uni textbook then we would have been terrified and demotivated and our heads really would have exploded.

So in terms of explaining to a guitarist with a shaky understanding of notes / theory I would agree with the dude that said that the other dude was being picky.

Double Edit- I understand that you will disagree with me but different people have different ways of teaching. Although I know Sean is a teacher who often deals with this stuff I would be very surprised if any of the music/guitar teachers I had in high school were to correct someone explaining scales to a relative beginner who said that there was no E#, although my current guitar teacher would definitely pull you up for it.


I correct people here on a forum because I'm not their teacher/instructor. I have no oversight of their learning. I also correct people for the sake of those who may read and believe that the misinformation is true. It's not necessarily trying to correct the topic poster, but to present a point of view to help prevent other people who may not know better, from falling into the same error of thinking. If that's being picky, then I'm going to be picky then. I've seen the results of people misinformation on other people before. I'll speak up.

It's nothing to to with being a theory nazi but everything to do with those who may not know better that read the post.

People teach things differently, that is true. Being as the things I teach are not rehashes of information found all over the internet or in books, this is especially the case with the order I teach and what I teach. I teach things in context. I don't listen to the way others do it. I do it how I do it, and how it contextually fits in the big picture. You articulated my thoughts directly,

"the things we learned were correct as far as we had to understand, as far as we could actually use, and if it was taught to us in the beginning with all the intricacies and additional rules of my mates uni textbook then we would have been terrified and demotivated and our heads really would have exploded."

You nailed it!

That's the role of a teacher, to direct the learning process in such a way as there are adequate foundations established beforehand. In a forum, I'm not establishing any foundations for people, so I don't give the same quarter. I respond for the defenseless, and that's also why I have so much passion to my comments at times. It's not an attack on the TS.

Best,

Sean
#24
Quote by soviet_ska
The scale was mistyped. E major is as follows:

E F# G# A B C# D#

Make a little more sense now?


Ok, I think so! So if we follow the formula W-W-H-W-W-W-H. The first W is from E for F# and the last H is from D# to E?? *crosses fingers this is right*
#25
Quote by FlexEXP
Ok, I think so! So if we follow the formula W-W-H-W-W-W-H. The first W is from E for F# and the last H is from D# to E?? *crosses fingers this is right*


Absolutely.
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