#1
Alright so im messin around learning this all that remains song (A song for the hopeless) and i start to wonder what one of the arpeggio shapes is... because it sounds cool and id like to use the same chord in a different key and write my own song.. So i go to this website that lets you find chords by plugging in each individual note.. I come to find out.. i am using the C#m9 chord. Alright so then i look at possible scales to play over this chord and i come across a very bizarre scale.. called the Japanese(Ichikosucho) scale.. Let me give you the notes... Over the C#m9 chord you can play the "A Ichikosucho Scale" which comprises of the notes.. A,B.C#,D,D#,E,F#,G#,(A) ... okay the reason i posted this thread was to find some information on this scale... Such as what style of music could i play with this scale? because it is a veryyy interesting scale. You use 1,2,3,4,#4,5,6,7 notes.. I can not find much more information than that on it. Help me out here
#2
i don't really know anything about this scale but it seems to just be the major scale with an added #4, which I assume would be like the added #4 used in the minor blues scale...
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#4
Quote by JacobCaine
It is... But i'm trying to figure out what i can do with the scale. Its so odd


It's really not that odd.

As stated above, it's just a regular everyday major scale with a "blue note" thrown in.

You'll find it used in country-blues / bluegrass a lot.
Last edited by retrocausality at Jun 8, 2011,
#5
That D# (#4) sticks out so you'll want to emphasise that to bring out the sound. Can you harmonize the scale?
#6
Lydian plus a normal 4th
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#7
Quote by seeneyj
Lydian plus a normal 4th

Nah. Makes more sense to have it the other way round.
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#8
Or that lol
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#9
Let me think. What sort of progressions do you use major scales with accidentals over?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#10
Quote by JacobCaine
Alright so im messin around learning this all that remains song (A song for the hopeless) and i start to wonder what one of the arpeggio shapes is... because it sounds cool and id like to use the same chord in a different key and write my own song.. So i go to this website that lets you find chords by plugging in each individual note.. I come to find out.. i am using the C#m9 chord. Alright so then i look at possible scales to play over this chord and i come across a very bizarre scale.. called the Japanese(Ichikosucho) scale.. Let me give you the notes... Over the C#m9 chord you can play the "A Ichikosucho Scale" which comprises of the notes.. A,B.C#,D,D#,E,F#,G#,(A) ... okay the reason i posted this thread was to find some information on this scale... Such as what style of music could i play with this scale? because it is a veryyy interesting scale. You use 1,2,3,4,#4,5,6,7 notes.. I can not find much more information than that on it. Help me out here


It doesnt work that way. You create the kind of music that it works for. Not the other way around. If you pushed me hard enough I'd say, if its Japanese in origin, then it was probably utilized in Japanese traditional music. Is that alll it can be used for, no. In fact I can take any scale and make something with it. The reason I can do this is theory. What do you know of theory? Because, if you don't know your theory at least to where you can assemble triads from scales, it sounds like you're getting programs to do the head work for you, so that you'll look like a pseudo-intellectual when you can announce to others or yourself that you know the name, and thus have an illusion of exotic-sounding-sophistication about you. That's just posing.

Earn the right to understand what your doing.

Best,

Sean
#11
I don't know about anyone else, but because of the #4 (or b5), to me it looks like the soloist could have used a blues scale in conjunction with other scales to give the solo more vibe - it just happens that the combination of notes belong to this ichikosucho scale. I just thought for a second that we could be overanalyzing this because you are taking one of the sweep patterns out of context from the rest of the solo. Does the rest of the solo have this trait or just this one section?

Edit: an afterthought: if the soloist is doing really fast sweeping shredding and stuff, then some guitarists like using chromatic passing notes (the 4, #4 and 5), kind of like Synyster Gates in "I Won't See You Tonight Part 2". If this is the case then I don't see it as a big issue...however this ichikosucho is really interesting.
Last edited by UnmagicMushroom at Jun 8, 2011,
#12
As I understand, Eastern music forms aren't really harmonically based, but focus more on the melodic aspect of things. If you're not versed in Eastern musicianship, then you've got a couple of options: take this as an excuse to explore Eastern music or Westernize that sucker! Like Calibos said: harmonize the scale to see what interesting chord combinations you can get. Use the D# if you want it to sound more "exotic" (since other than that note, it's just an A major).

It would be interesting to see what would happen if you had a D# pedal tone in the middle or upper voice of the chords until it finally gets released to E on the resolution to A major. Just a thought.
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Last edited by soviet_ska at Jun 8, 2011,
#13
Quote by Sean0913
It doesnt work that way. You create the kind of music that it works for. Not the other way around. If you pushed me hard enough I'd say, if its Japanese in origin, then it was probably utilized in Japanese traditional music. Is that alll it can be used for, no. In fact I can take any scale and make something with it. The reason I can do this is theory. What do you know of theory? Because, if you don't know your theory at least to where you can assemble triads from scales, it sounds like you're getting programs to do the head work for you, so that you'll look like a pseudo-intellectual when you can announce to others or yourself that you know the name, and thus have an illusion of exotic-sounding-sophistication about you. That's just posing.

Earn the right to understand what your doing.

Best,

Sean


Damn bro that was a little harsh.. Im only 16 and I KNOW MY THEORY. Instead of being a prick why don't you help. Damn why do people like you think youre better than every one else just because you learned your theory. I know theory as well and i'm not being like that. Thats the kind of musician i never want to be right there.. I pity you dude.
#15
I do understand what is going on here.. Its not that hard. It is a major scale with an added 4# note. ALLLLLLL i wanted to know was what style of music the scale would best fit with. Japanese traditional music is what i had in mind. But i could not find any information or anything with the scale being used. I just wanted some information on what the scale is used for.. Not a theory lesson.
#16
Like I said, if you knew your theory, you would know that the #4 (or, way more likely, b5) is just an accidental. You're playing a major scale over a chord. If you knew your theory, you would know that the type of scale doesn't matter for the kind of music you're playing.
Plus, you wanted information about what the scale is used for, and you didn't expect there to be theory involved with that?

Look, the only thing me and Sean are saying, is that you shouldn't trust those automated sites, they're most of the time completely off, as in this case. Best thing is to really know your theory, then you wouldn't have to rely on these 'tools'.
#17
Chromatic passing notes are used in all kinds of music.

You shouldn't be thinking "what scale is this", you should be thinking "how does the melody relate to the harmony".
#18
Quote by JacobCaine
Damn bro that was a little harsh.. Im only 16 and I KNOW MY THEORY. Instead of being a prick why don't you help. Damn why do people like you think youre better than every one else just because you learned your theory. I know theory as well and i'm not being like that. Thats the kind of musician i never want to be right there.. I pity you dude.


if you knew your theory, this thread wouldn't exist. if you knew your theory, you wouldn't need to plug notes into a calculator to find out which chords you're using. if you want to criticize sean for being a little harsh, that's one thing, but don't trick yourself into thinking you're smarter than you are. if you don't know theory, don't make a thread about something like this and get defensive when you're told you don't know theory. you don't play a scale based on A over a chord based on C#, unless your key is A major. otherwise, it makes no sense. see, if you knew theory, you'd know that. and we don't care that you're only 16. i'm 20 and i've only been a musician for 3 years, but i know my stuff. don't make excuses, you're only hurting yourself. it doesn't matter to us how good (or otherwise) you are, it only affects you.

now, to actually be of some help: i don't really know the context of the music, so here's what i CAN say -- D# looks like it's just an accidental. you're saying that it's 1, 2, 3, 4, #4, 5, 6, 7, so given that information, and using the D# as the #4, your key is probably A major (or F# minor, i don't know all that remains very well but i know they're metal and most metal songs are in a minor key). anyway. you say the harmony is C#m9. well, that's probably where your D# comes in - it's a note in C#m9. it's probably just an altered chromatic note.

oh, and don't fall into the trap of thinking that certain scales = certain genres. the note choice is rarely what makes the genre - it's the instrumentation that does that. if you play a bach partita on electric guitar, are people going to call it classical music? if you want to know about japanese traditional music, STUDY japanese traditional music. an ATR song isn't going to help you. study traditional japanese instruments.

if you want to call me a prick, an asshole, a douchebag, an elitist, go ahead -- that all has absolutely no bearing on the validity of everything i said.
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#19
Quote by JacobCaine
Damn bro that was a little harsh.. Im only 16 and I KNOW MY THEORY. Instead of being a prick


Oh the irony.

Damn why do people like you think youre better than every one else
just because you learned your theory. I know theory as well and i'm not being like that.
Thats the kind of musician i never want to be right there.. I pity you dude.


Wow.
#20
Thanks for the help Aeolian wolf but yeah theres my point again. Prick lol. I guess all people are like that then, maybe when i learn some more theory ill develop a big head as well. And well as for the calculator thing.. I only wanted to find out what the chord being used was.
#21
Quote by JacobCaine
Thanks for the help Aeolian wolf but yeah theres my point again. Prick lol. I guess all people are like that then, maybe when i learn some more theory ill develop a big head as well. And well as for the calculator thing.. I only wanted to find out what the chord being used was.


i guess you don't get it. that's fine, some people never do. if you wanted to find out what chord you were using, you would use your theory knowledge. don't know it? and there's my point. you don't know your theory knowledge.

so i'll spell it out for you. your chord is C#m9. you're not going to use a scale based on A anything. you have two options: 1) a scale based on C# (why not C# minor, again?), or 2) a scale based on the key of the composition.

according to you, this chord is part of a composition, so more than likely, it's going to be 2). determine the key, determine how your chord relates to the key, and, finally, solo over it.

also, don't get me wrong here: i'm not saying you couldn't use the notes that are present in the A ichikosucho scale. i AM saying that it wouldn't be an A ichikosucho scale. but it'd be called something else -- which is not that important where the actual sound is concerned, but in analysis, it makes a tremendous difference.
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#22
Quote by JacobCaine
Damn bro that was a little harsh.. Im only 16 and I KNOW MY THEORY. Instead of being a prick why don't you help. Damn why do people like you think youre better than every one else just because you learned your theory. I know theory as well and i'm not being like that. Thats the kind of musician i never want to be right there.. I pity you dude.


I asked if you knew your theory.

If you know your theory, than everything I said after the "IF NOT" portion, wouldn't apply to you, would it? What do you mean by calling me names?

Why would I need to think I'm better than everyone else? What would that get me, especially on an internet forum? I see no benefit in that kind of thinking, do you? I'm 42 years old man, that kind of thinking is for people that already know they are small, and need to prove something to convince others that they aren't. That's just...small.

Why don't you go back and read my points in context again. I'm sure you know your theory, since you are so adamant about knowing it.

If you know theory, why would you need a calculator to find what a chord's notes were? That's sort of part of "knowing" theory. I can look at the notes of any scale and tell you what the chords are. You went to a calculator. Why? That tells me that you are extended farther than your knowledge. The whole thing came across as a theory based question, and not a stylistic one as you now maintain it was intended.

But the fact is your question was poorly worded, and I even told you the answer "Traditional Japanese Music". So, what exactly do you want from me, amigo? Where have I failed you?

I've got nothing to gain by putting you down. I don't even know you. If you go to my profile you'll understand why I say things the way I do.

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jun 9, 2011,
#24
Quote by Sean0913
It doesnt work that way. You create the kind of music that it works for. Not the other way around. If you pushed me hard enough I'd say, if its Japanese in origin, then it was probably utilized in Japanese traditional music. Is that alll it can be used for, no. In fact I can take any scale and make something with it. The reason I can do this is theory. What do you know of theory? Because, if you don't know your theory at least to where you can assemble triads from scales, it sounds like you're getting programs to do the head work for you, so that you'll look like a pseudo-intellectual when you can announce to others or yourself that you know the name, and thus have an illusion of exotic-sounding-sophistication about you. That's just posing.

Earn the right to understand what your doing.

Best,

Sean



Quote by Sean0913
I asked if you knew your theory.

If you know your theory, than everything I said after the "IF NOT" portion, wouldn't apply to you, would it? What do you mean by calling me names?

Why would I need to think I'm better than everyone else? What would that get me, especially on an internet forum? I see no benefit in that kind of thinking, do you? I'm 42 years old man, that kind of thinking is for people that already know they are small, and need to prove something to convince others that they aren't. That's just...small.

Why don't you go back and read my points in context again. I'm sure you know your theory, since you are so adamant about knowing it.

If you know theory, why would you need a calculator to find what a chord's notes were? That's sort of part of "knowing" theory. I can look at the notes of any scale and tell you what the chords are. You went to a calculator. Why? That tells me that you are extended farther than your knowledge. The whole thing came across as a theory based question, and not a stylistic one as you now maintain it was intended.

But the fact is your question was poorly worded, and I even told you the answer "Traditional Japanese Music". So, what exactly do you want from me, amigo? Where have I failed you?

I've got nothing to gain by putting you down. I don't even know you. If you go to my profile you'll understand why I say things the way I do.

Sean


You come across as a pompous douche.
#25
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You come across as a pompous douche.

This thread is two years old... you weren't even a user while this thread was active. Also, he's not coming across as a pompous douche.
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Last edited by rockingamer2 at Sep 3, 2013,
#26
Quote by Astounding
You come across as a pompous douche.

you come across as being the intellectual equal of an ice cream cone, so let's call it even
#27
Well in Sean's defense, it's kinda hard to tactfully say, "if you knew your shit then you wouldn't ask such a stupid question." Personally I think he said it very well. I used to think a lot of Sean & AW's posts were overly negative when I first started lurking these forums(years ago) until I came to realize that they were absolutely right. It's never easy to correct someone's misunderstanding, but it's more of a disservice to them to let them keep deluding themselves.
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