#1
I know all the modes, obviously the pentatonic, the bebop and the eastern scale. But what other than these can seasoned rock or rock /jazz fusion players recommend to give a little different sound to a solo over say a minor chord in hard rock/heavy metal? I know he's not that genre, but Al diMeola gets a lot of different colors into his rockin guitar sound and I was hoping to take that as a guideline.
#2
Harmonic Minor? Phrygian Dominant?
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#3
Al DiMeola is the man! I love him in Return to Forever, his choice of note selection is remarkable. I mean he is only using Major or Minor scales, and the various modes within those. He uses lots of arpeggios, and has a handful of modal sweeps in his arsenal. But a few cool scales to check out: Phrygian Dominant, Lydian Dominant, Kumoi scale, Hirajoshi scales, and also some Hungarian scales I suppose. But the key is just practicing the scales, and becoming totally familiar with them. I'd take note selection over random shredding anyday.
#4
Quote by heinrick
Al DiMeola is the man! I love him in Return to Forever, his choice of note selection is remarkable. I mean he is only using Major or Minor scales, and the various modes within those. He uses lots of arpeggios, and has a handful of modal sweeps in his arsenal. But a few cool scales to check out: Phrygian Dominant, Lydian Dominant, Kumoi scale, Hirajoshi scales, and also some Hungarian scales I suppose. But the key is just practicing the scales, and becoming totally familiar with them. I'd take note selection over random shredding anyday.


god that's good, this thread is gonna be a shitstorm already. ts, you say yoou know all the scales and modes (which i doubt) but what exactly is the eastern scale? harmonic minor, phrygian dominant? pentatonic?
#5
Quote by gypsyblues
I know all the modes, obviously the pentatonic, the bebop and the eastern scale. But what other than these can seasoned rock or rock /jazz fusion players recommend to give a little different sound to a solo over say a minor chord in hard rock/heavy metal? I know he's not that genre, but Al diMeola gets a lot of different colors into his rockin guitar sound and I was hoping to take that as a guideline.


He has many diverse and different influences other than Western ones. That's why. You could start exploring music in different cultures, and especially their melodic choices, because that's where that comes from, there are a lot of Latin Jazz based things in his music, for example. Look into Afro-Cuban, Eastern sitar, Hungarian folk, etc.

Best,

Sean
#7
I like the augmented fifth scale. It's basically the major scale and the blues minor scale combined*, which are my favorite scales for composing rock/punk. It works pretty good for soloing with rock/blues/hardrock/jazz

*inb4 educated theory nut corrects me.
Last edited by JetPackBlues at Jun 8, 2011,
#8
Quote by gavk
god that's good, this thread is gonna be a shitstorm already. ts, you say yoou know all the scales and modes (which i doubt) but what exactly is the eastern scale? harmonic minor, phrygian dominant? pentatonic?


I know the modes within major and minor. And when I mean eastern, I mean the one used in Flamenco, with the extra half step that Paco de Lucía uses frequently.

but if you're not going to add constructive comments and can only give sarcasm, I'd ask you stay out of my thread and five into your nearest Irish pub to drown your sorrows alone, cause clearly I don't need your advice.
#9
Quote by gypsyblues
I know all the modes, obviously the pentatonic, the bebop and the eastern scale. But what other than these can seasoned rock or rock /jazz fusion players recommend to give a little different sound to a solo over say a minor chord in hard rock/heavy metal? I know he's not that genre, but Al diMeola gets a lot of different colors into his rockin guitar sound and I was hoping to take that as a guideline.


Knowing patterns is not going to make you a better player. If you know that much theory and don't know how to apply it you need to back up, forget about anything involving modes, and learn the major scale.
#10
If you want interesting scales over a particular chord, remember you only "need" the chord tones and everything else is up for grabs.

ie, over a minor chord you can play anything including a 1, b3 and 5.
#11
Quote by gypsyblues
I know the modes within major and minor. And when I mean eastern, I mean the one used in Flamenco, with the extra half step that Paco de Lucía uses frequently.

but if you're not going to add constructive comments and can only give sarcasm, I'd ask you stay out of my thread and five into your nearest Irish pub to drown your sorrows alone, cause clearly I don't need your advice.


Quote by JetPackBlues
I like the augmented fifth scale. It's basically the major scale and the blues minor scale combined*, which are my favorite scales for composing rock/punk. It works pretty good for soloing with rock/blues/hardrock/jazz

*inb4 educated theory nut corrects me.


What is it with people that have a problem with being corrected when they are wrong?

In short, Sean's advice would be best, to take a look at his use of phrasing.
#12
Quote by gypsyblues
but if you're not going to add constructive comments and can only give sarcasm, I'd ask you stay out of my thread and five into your nearest Irish pub to drown your sorrows alone, cause clearly I don't need your advice.


it's not our fault you've fallen into the scale trap and lack the perception to see that the things that you don't want to hear are the pieces of constructive criticism you need.

good luck.
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#13
Quote by AeolianWolf
it's not our fault you've fallen into the scale trap and lack the perception to see that the things that you don't want to hear are the pieces of constructive criticism you need.

good luck.


Damn, a lotta people on this blog really look at things in a negative light. I didn't care for that guy's comment cause it was clearly sarcastic and had no value to it. As far as the actual point of this thread, I agree with those who've said I should concentrate on phrasing and not so much on the scale as if it were a math equation.

I think I need to clarify: I don't only think in terms of scales and don't know tons I never use, as I see some here have interpreted. In fact, most times I don't even think of what scale I'm in and just finger a note when I think it feels right. but since I listen to people like Al DiMeola, like somebody else here rightly said has influence from a wide variety of cultures in his music, I suppose some of that has rubbed off on my playing (not to say I'm anywhere near as good).

Most of my musician friends actually know a lot more theory than me, so I really never considered myself that knowledgeable. Knowing the minor and major modes is kinda basic in my book.

But anyway, with a totally positive attitude, I welcome those who know a lot to share advice. And please, it's too common for blogs like this to turn into a chain of insults that I don't have patience for. I'm in it for the music, that's it. Thanks everybody.
#14
Okay for starters all of the MT regulars that have posted in this thread have been constructive. There's no be all, end all to answer your question. It's incredibly broad and turning around and saying that we're all being hostile and negative isn't going to get you far in this neck of the woods. This is an open forum and you're bound to get flak from some people.

Having said that;

What we are trying to help you with is that you really don't need to know lot's of 'different' scales to achieve a different sound. You can do a great deal with just a simple minor scale, it's more of the context in which you play it over which will determine the alternate sound you are after.

Al Di Meola for example has a great deal of Jazz & Latin influence and the progressions are totally different to the typical ''hard rock'' types.
Last edited by Zanon at Jun 8, 2011,
#15
Quote by gypsyblues
I know the modes within major and minor. And when I mean eastern, I mean the one used in Flamenco, with the extra half step that Paco de Lucía uses frequently.

but if you're not going to add constructive comments and can only give sarcasm, I'd ask you stay out of my thread and five into your nearest Irish pub to drown your sorrows alone, cause clearly I don't need your advice.



Dude,

You have anger issues.

Forget scales -- seek therapy.
#16
Idk dude.

What I've learned is that getting a different sound from your soloing has a lot to do with which notes you rest on, or more clearly which interval the note is from the root of the current chord.

That being said, I was playing 'Heroes' by Shinedown the other night. The song is in D minor, but I started soloing in D phrygian, and it sounded really nice.
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#17
Quote by Zen Skin
Dude,

You have anger issues.

Forget scales -- seek therapy.


Music is my therapy dude. But point taken, I was hung over and angry the day I made that comment.
#18
Quote by kumamilesbear
Idk dude.

What I've learned is that getting a different sound from your soloing has a lot to do with which notes you rest on, or more clearly which interval the note is from the root of the current chord.

That being said, I was playing 'Heroes' by Shinedown the other night. The song is in D minor, but I started soloing in D phrygian, and it sounded really nice.


You weren't soloing in D phrygian, you were playing in D minor with a b2 as an accidental instead of the 2 (and no, that's not the same as playing D phrygian).
#20
The simple answer is no modes, major and minor scales. Penatonic and blues scales. And that's pretty much it.

And in major and minor keys, you can use any note you wish. Any note outside the major and minor scales in a major or minor key is called an accidental. Feel free to experiment with them.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#21
Quote by gavk
god that's good, this thread is gonna be a shitstorm already. ts, you say yoou know all the scales and modes (which i doubt) but what exactly is the eastern scale? harmonic minor, phrygian dominant? pentatonic?


What's so laughable about the lydian dominant scale, exactly? It IS a real one.
Get baked, study theory.

Quote by :-D
Why are you bringing Cm into this?
#22
Quote by Instrumetal
What's so laughable about the lydian dominant scale, exactly? It IS a real one.


Sure thing, but in major and minor keys it only functions as a major scale with accidentals.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#23
Quote by AlanHB
Sure thing, but in major and minor keys it only functions as a major scale with accidentals.


Oh I'm aware, I don't think that's what the post I quoted was getting at though.
Get baked, study theory.

Quote by :-D
Why are you bringing Cm into this?
#24
Quote by Instrumetal
Oh I'm aware, I don't think that's what the post I quoted was getting at though.


Probably a test of TS's actual knowledge of theory, how the scales are created and awareness that they cover more than just a pattern box spanning 3 frets long on the fretboard.

If you knew all these modes, at least in the form of major/minor scales with accidentals, you'd have every note on the fretboard covered with these scales anyway. Obviously different scales are not then the secret to the sound which TS seeks.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#25
Knowing patterns is not going to make you a better player. If you know that much theory and don't know how to apply it you need to back up, forget about anything involving modes, and learn the major scale.
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