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#1
I've been asked to play a song for a show, it's called water sign, this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYJzwK4sxRg
I'm playing lead guitar, going to play what the saxophone or whatever it is is playing.
Only problem is that i'm going to improvise a solo on it, and this kind of music isnt exactly the type i'm best at, i wanna play something that really fits for it, my guitar teacher just gave me a scale that i should use for it, but not really much more.
Any suggestions or quick lessons that could help me? and maybe some cool jazz sounding licks i could use?
#2
Hate to say it, but jazz isn't really about knowing licks etc, it's about "going with the flow" and improving whatever you feel is right... it's a wierd genre
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#4
Jeeze what's up with the hostility. I never said i didnt like jazz, and i'm not expecting to become awesome at it over night either.
Yeah i'm sure it's all about "going with the flow"... so is it with nearly every single other genre, but some starter help on improvisation doesent hurt.
#6
http://www.starglasses.net/tabs-in-pdf-format/

Pick a few of these and learn some licks/chord progressions. About jazz being about "Going with the Flow", while thats true, if you don't know how to achieve a certain sound, you're probably not going to get it unless you study it.

Once you get a feel for it you'll be able to do alot, but until you study it and attempt to emulate it you probably won't get far. Try to learn the saxophone solo by ear to figure out exactly what kind of licks work over it and what kind of accidentals you're able to utilize.

That being said, good luck. Make sure to practice.

BrutalEdit: For this song, I would get the backing chords for each section which will help you "Lead in" to the next chord. Also, if the chords cause modulation of some kind you could end up playing in the wrong key/mode. So, figure that stuff out.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Jun 8, 2011,
#7
Quote by !-twisty-!
Hate to say it, but jazz isn't really about knowing licks etc, it's about "going with the flow" and improving whatever you feel is right... it's a wierd genre


No. Wrong. Sit there in your wrongness.

Jazz is about learning all your modes and applying them over the said chords.
There is no 'whatever you feel is right' because it is probably wrong.

If you see a Dm7 chord, you use D dorian.
If you see an A7 chord, you use A mixolydian
If you see a G diminished chord, you use a diminshed scale.

You can apply some licks if you know they will work over a chord progression.
It is the same as rock except the style of soloing is slightly different and instead of using one scale, you are probably using a new one every bar or two.
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#8
Quote by Life Is Brutal
http://www.starglasses.net/tabs-in-pdf-format/

Pick a few of these and learn some licks/chord progressions. About jazz being about "Going with the Flow", while thats true, if you don't know how to achieve a certain sound, you're probably not going to get it unless you study it.

Once you get a feel for it you'll be able to do alot, but until you study it and attempt to emulate it you probably won't get far. Try to learn the saxophone solo by ear to figure out exactly what kind of licks work over it and what kind of accidentals you're able to utilize.

That being said, good luck. Make sure to practice.

BrutalEdit: For this song, I would get the backing chords for each section which will help you "Lead in" to the next chord. Also, if the chords cause modulation of some kind you could end up playing in the wrong key/mode. So, figure that stuff out.

Thanks alot that's exactly what i was looking for! a lick from here and there is going to help tremendously!
But that list was a bit overwhelming, which of them do you suggest i take a look at first? :P
#9
Quote by seeneyj
No. Wrong. Sit there in your wrongness.

Jazz is about learning all your modes and applying them over the said chords.
There is no 'whatever you feel is right' because it is probably wrong.

If you see a Dm7 chord, you use D dorian.
If you see an A7 chord, you use A mixolydian
If you see a G diminished chord, you use a diminshed scale.

You can apply some licks if you know they will work over a chord progression.
It is the same as rock except the style of soloing is slightly different and instead of using one scale, you are probably using a new one every bar or two.


You can use different enterpretations of those chords and modes as long as you avoid accidentals or use them tastefully. That Dm7 has D, F, A, and C, so you can use any mode that uses those notes, so any of the modes in the C Major scale, along with any other mode that contains those notes. The notes that are NOT included in the chord are what give you an influence in the sound.

While D dorian would work over Dm7, so would E phrygian, and F Lydian... Oh, and the C major scale.

For A7 you could also use Gb Phrygian or even D Harmonic Minor for a few beats.

Point is, there are multiple modes for certain chords and each will give you a particular sound against a certain chord.

And yeah, as Seeney said you'll probably be switching scales every bar or so, and thats why we have CST (Chord Scale Theory), which is when you apply such scales over certain chords.
#10
Quote by Life Is Brutal
You can use different enterpretations of those chords and modes as long as you avoid accidentals or use them tastefully. That Dm7 has D, F, A, and C, so you can use any mode that uses those notes, so any of the modes in the C Major scale, along with any other mode that contains those notes. The notes that are NOT included in the chord are what give you an influence in the sound.

While D dorian would work over Dm7, so would E phrygian, and F Lydian... Oh, and the C major scale.

For A7 you could also use Gb Phrygian or even D Harmonic Minor for a few beats.

Point is, there are multiple modes for certain chords and each will give you a particular sound against a certain chord.

And yeah, as Seeney said you'll probably be switching scales every bar or so, and thats why we have CST (Chord Scale Theory), which is when you apply such scales over certain chords.


eeeeeeeeegzachry
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#11
jeez, I need to move this to MT...quickly!
Actually called Mark!

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#12
Quote by seeneyj
No. Wrong. Sit there in your wrongness.

Jazz is about learning all your modes and applying them over the said chords.
There is no 'whatever you feel is right' because it is probably wrong.

If you see a Dm7 chord, you use D dorian.
If you see an A7 chord, you use A mixolydian
If you see a G diminished chord, you use a diminshed scale.

You can apply some licks if you know they will work over a chord progression.
It is the same as rock except the style of soloing is slightly different and instead of using one scale, you are probably using a new one every bar or two.


No. Wrong. You're trying to apply CST, but functionally you aren't going anywhere you're simply playing Major scales in a Major Key If you see a Dm7 you're in C Major and Dm7 is usually functioning as the ii, if A7 Then you moved to D Major as its the V in I. It's NOT about learning your modes, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

It's NOT about learning your modes (Unless you are specifically playing Modal Jazz, like "So What". It's about understanding the tonal centers as they change and understanding chords and arpeggios and other ways to play over Altered dominants and extended chords. And even with those, that doesn't encompass allt hat Jazz is, but it's a better start than you suggested.

Sean
#13
Quote by Sean0913
No. Wrong. You're trying to apply CST, but functionally you aren't going anywhere you're simply playing Major scales in a Major Key If you see a Dm7 you're in C Major and Dm7 is usually functioning as the ii, if A7 Then you moved to D Major as its the V in I. It's NOT about learning your modes, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

It's NOT about learning your modes (Unless you are specifically playing Modal Jazz, like "So What". It's about understanding the tonal centers as they change and understanding chords and arpeggios and other ways to play over Altered dominants and extended chords. And even with those, that doesn't encompass allt hat Jazz is, but it's a better start than you suggested.

Sean



It is what the basic jazz textbooks say about soloing.

Yes, the terminology is being abused and it is a misunderstanding of modes ... but I have read that in quite a few places.

Which does not make it right.

I prefer to think in terms of genres of jazz -- the swing guys did one thing, the Dixieland cats did something else, the be bop guys really dug into playing over the chord, the West Coast guys had another approach.

When Dave Brubeck was asked if there are rules for Jazz improvisation he replied "There are tons of rules!!! And if you break one you will never get asked to sit in again!"
#14
And then you look at Jimmy Bruno (who I studied Jazz from) who played with Sinatra, and says that they never use or talk modes in Jazz...

Like you said... different perspectives. But CST while Berklee loves it is an organaizational tool, and I get that, but the fact is functionally they aren't modal. Call a scale what you want. Call Dorian "Janet" for all I care. They aren't modes (in this context).

That's all Im saying. They are Major scales and Major Keys. Once you understand that, call em whatever you like, but Modes aren't part of it.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jun 9, 2011,
#16
You need some modern jazz funk licks, not just jazz. You are going to need a couple of scales to handle all the changes.

I'm doing this from ear as I don't have my guitar...(post the chords and I can probably help you further)...

The main theme is F7, so you have a wide open dominant field for improv'ing over it. F Mixolydian and F Lydian Dominant for a more direct approach and F Blues and F Major Pentatonic mix for the bluesier and chromatic stuff.

My suggestion is to learn the head of the tune, it will give you a road map of how to connect all those scales to play a concise solo over F7.

Then the changes come, I believe they start with a Cm chord with the melody note of G but then it descends down F Eb Db C, sounds like there is a new chord for each melody note...just start descending down from the Cm chord and find each new chords Root and whether it's a major or a minor chord.

I don't have time to go into the rest and I don't have the resources right now to do it justice. Cool tune,

my best suggestion to you is...learn the head and you'll know exactly what to play.

Post the chord progression (in measures) and I'll help you from a theory stand point. Should be a fun tune to play over.
Last edited by MikeDodge at Jun 9, 2011,
#17
Quote by seeneyj
No. Wrong. Sit there in your wrongness.

Jazz is about learning all your modes and applying them over the said chords.
There is no 'whatever you feel is right' because it is probably wrong.

If you see a Dm7 chord, you use D dorian.
If you see an A7 chord, you use A mixolydian
If you see a G diminished chord, you use a diminshed scale.

You can apply some licks if you know they will work over a chord progression.
It is the same as rock except the style of soloing is slightly different and instead of using one scale, you are probably using a new one every bar or two.


...you cannot be serious. see, this is why people don't get modes. because people like you fail to understand and continue to spew misinformation. i don't really dig twisty's answer 100%, but i'm definitely inclined to agree with him more than you, because at least he doesn't have any wrong information.

good thing you moved this, steven. could have saved a life with this one.

on a side note CST is mostly a crock. the fact that berklee likes it is the main reason that i don't take berklee as seriously anymore. it's only really useful if the chord changes are happening at breakneck speeds, like in giant steps. and even then, it's STILL not modal, so...well, you get my point.
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#18
Quote by AeolianWolf
...you cannot be serious. see, this is why people don't get modes. because people like you fail to understand and continue to spew misinformation....



Again ... more than a few books out there will say exactly what he said about dorian and mixolydian.

Yes, it is an abuse of nomenclature, but, we call a whammy a tremolo bar, fast pull offs and hammer ons legato and speak of "5" chords.

So ... he is simply repeating what educated and working guitar players are publishing in books.

And I cut him some slack because, in the jazz world, serious guitarists will rattle of a mode name for a scale knowing full well that it is not the 100% correct use of the term.


If you pop open the Real Book or many other jazz fake books you will see tings like "F Lydian" as a chord name (FMaj7#11) and "vamp on D Dorian to Eb Dorian" (for solos on "So What") Sometimes it is an abuse of nomenclature, but sometimes it isn't.

I think it is tolerable when it is not some kid who has owned a guitar for 3 months and starts announcing he knows "all the modes". I have hear perfectly respectable music teachers speak of modern modes as scales.

Also -- as I have pointed out a few times, many folk musics are modal in nature and there are plenty of musicologists who know this and there were plenty of composers (Dvorak, Debussy, Borodin, Bartok, etc) who redefined modes in a modern orchestral context.

And, of course, there are still hymns and other ecclesiastic music that is modal and used all the time.

Tonality offers a much more precise and concise way to analyze music, most of the time. When ehtnomusicologists hear folk music in mixolydian mode, that is what they call it (unless they are real purists and refuse to put any Western label on it)

Of course there is a mode that all guitarists know about and has nothing to do with the Ancient Greeks or European music of any period .... the blues. The blues has a scale of its own (at least two, in fact), it has harmonies of its own, it has rhythms and textures that are not from anywhere but the American South. If you listen to drum and fife blues, you get a VERY different sense of country blues than what 60's guitarists started investigating in Delta Blues. Of course, it is still blues And it comes from a mode that is not derived from the diatonic scale.
#19
Quote by AeolianWolf

on a side note CST is mostly a crock. the fact that berklee likes it is the main reason that i don't take berklee as seriously anymore. it's only really useful if the chord changes are happening at breakneck speeds, like in giant steps. and even then, it's STILL not modal, so...well, you get my point.


I feel this way as well.

The only time I use CST is on fast bop songs that I'm not overly familiar with just to keep up with the group.

If I have time to sit around and learn the piece I like to think of how the chords are all related to each other and try out dozens of melodies that weave through the chords in a way that chord progression could usually be heard from the solo alone even if no one was backing me.
#20
Quote by Zen Skin
Again ... more than a few books out there will say exactly what he said about dorian and mixolydian.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

it's more than an abuse of nomenclature. it's fundamentally and objectively incorrect. you can call the material in pencils "lead" until you're blue in the face, but it's not lead. you can argue that french horns came from france, but they're from germany. and the catgut used for violin strings way back when was never cat, now, was it?

it's one thing if a guitarist who's been playing for 3 months claims to know his modes. it's another if he's been playing for a while, doesn't know jack, and thinks to correct others with misinformation.

Quote by Zen Skin
Also -- as I have pointed out a few times, many folk musics are modal in nature and there are plenty of musicologists who know this and there were plenty of composers (Dvorak, Debussy, Borodin, Bartok, etc) who redefined modes in a modern orchestral context.


absolutely. now, when i hear the guitarist who doesn't know jack give me an argument based on this, i won't be able to talk back.
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#21
From a less technical viewpoint as all the others seem to be discussing, I think it can really add a "jazzy" sound to a solo if you add some half step flat grace notes. This is just a small detail but I think it sounds pretty cool.

Also, use your neck pickup
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#22
im going to defend CST; may god have mercy on my soul (in this forum anyway).
Harmonically, it gives you nothing, but when your looking at changes you may or may not understand, songs with non-functional harmony, songs with long periods of stagnant harmony, sightreading charts with dificult changes, or wanting to do michael brecker-ish runs on songs with standard harmony (or want to do more then deliniate the function of the harmony through your melodic line), it can be immensly helpful. over a tune like blues for alice, id probably stay the **** away from it, but over something like the song posted, it may well make sense to think in terms of mixolydian modes over dominant seventh chords. its in in no way modal, but it can be very effective, and enough respected (and yes, educated) musicians, do think in those terms to make it seem like an extremely valid approach (though definatly not the only one). i think a lot of it depends on how you think, but honestly, when I see an F7 chord i can immediately think F G A Bb C D Eb F, or F F# G# A B C D Eb, or F Gb A Bb C Db Eb etc, and have multiple large pools of notes (of varying degrees of consonance) that work well over that chord. i think thats pretty valuable.
all the best.
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#23
Hey dude,

You can't just pick a few licks and start to play jazz, jazz is all about playing the "changes" (the chords which are changing) the basic and most fundamental is just to solo over the chord tones of the chords, this means that knowing your arps is a MUST!, then you learnd the key center so you can added passing notes from the key center and also chromatic approach notes, these include different mixtures like chromatic below, chromatic above, chromatic below+scale note above, double chromatic movement etc, then you will need to focus on the guide tones of the chords, after that you will learn targeting subs and extension and so on and so on
#24
Modes definitely have a place in this song, the verse is a one chord vamp in Fmixolydian, I can hear that. And if I was right about the Cm, it could still be in F mixolydian.

This is a cool progression, time permitting I'm going to work with it this weekend. Hopefully I can come back with some firm concepts...a well as am couple of Lorbers licks
#25
Quote by Zen Skin
Actually I thought you were looking at a real jazz tune -- that's Kenny G -- just play major pentatonic. Use lots of whole notes.


You figure that's what he's doing eh?
Get baked, study theory.

Quote by :-D
Why are you bringing Cm into this?
#26
The whole single note intro is pretty much just G Minor Pentatonic/Blues.

Then...


The cool chords...

Play C Natural/Pentatonic Minor all the way except for the Db chord. For the Db chord play Bb Minor Pent/C Phrygian


| Cm  Cm/M7|Eb  Db| Cm Cm/M7|Eb  Db Eb |
E---------------------------------------
B--4---4----4---6---4---4----4---6---8--
G--5---4----3---6---5---4----3---6---8--
D--5---3----5---6---5---3----5---6---8--
A---------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------

or

| Cm  Cm/M7|Eb  Db| Cm Cm/M7|Eb  Db Eb |
E---------------------------------------
B-8----8----8---6---8----8---8----6--8--
G-8----8----8---6---8----8---8----6--8--
D-10---9----8---6---10---9---8----6--8--
A---------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------



For the F9 vamp
1. C Nat Min and C Dorian mix, b6 and 6
2. Play from F Dorian
3. Can even play D Minor Pentatonic for some cool sounds
4. Play from Bb7 or Bb Mixolydian
5. Put it all together and it's the Bb Bebop scale Bb C D Eb F G Ab A Bb

The vamp melody is out of this scale, play it ascending then descending to get

the vibe:

E------------------------------8--10--|--8---------------------------
B-------------------8--10--11---------|-----11--10-------------------
G------------8--10--------------------|-------------10--8------------
D--7--8--10---------------------------|--------------------10--8--7--
A-------------------------------------|------------------------------
E-------------------------------------|------------------------------


Go out on a limb and try filling in that line with chromatics, sounds pretty smooth:


E--10--9--8---------------------------------------
B------------11--10--9--8-------------------------
G--------------------------10--9--8---------------
D------------------------------------10--9--8--7--
A-------------------------------------------------
E-------------------------------------------------


Now, here's what's really happening in the solo...

Lorber plays his solo based in a Bb7 or Bb Mixolydian, but the F9 chord has A in it.

So the G Ab A Bb give us a Bb Bebop scale, or maybe a C Minor Bebop, I don't know as I'm not too versed on the different Bebop scales.

The first couple of licks are in this area...


@ 2:19
E----------13--15/16--15--13h15------13--
B---14/15------------------------15------
G----------------------------------------
D----------------------------------------
A----------------------------------------
E----------------------------------------

@ 2:23

E--20h22--20--------------------------
B--18-----18--18--21--18--20------18--
G-----------------------------19------
D-------------------------------------
A-------------------------------------
E-------------------------------------


Those two licks could also be considered F Dorian, but remember the F9 chord has A in it...


E--16--15--13------------------------------
B--------------16--15--13------------------
G--------------------------15--13--12------
D--------------------------------------15--
A------------------------------------------
E------------------------------------------


Now blend all that stuff over the F9 chord and you'll have some pretty sweet spots to kill over this vamp! Some Steve Morse-ish like this, play it as straight 16th notes...


E--10--9--8----------------------------------------
B------------11--10--9--8--6--7--8--7--6-----------
G-----------------------------------------7--6--5--
D--------------------------------------------------
A--------------------------------------------------
E--------------------------------------------------


Here's the bulk of Lorbers outside lick @ 3:17

E--------------------------------------------------------------17--20--18------
B------------------------------------------------------18--20--------------18--
G----------17--20------17--18------17------17--18--20--------------------------
D--17--20----------20----------19------20--------------------------------------
A------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I kind of reversed it and came up with something like this...

   Cm
E--11--8--9------8----------------------------------------------
B------------10-----11--13--10----------------------------------
G-------------------------------12--10--------------------------
D---------------------------------------13--10--11------10------
A---------------------------------------------------12------13--
E---------------------------------------------------------------


Fun stuff, I've never heard this tune before and it was a blast messing around

with it!
Last edited by MikeDodge at Jun 12, 2011,
#27
Quote by seeneyj
No. Wrong. Sit there in your wrongness.

Jazz is about learning all your modes and applying them over the said chords.
There is no 'whatever you feel is right' because it is probably wrong.

If you see a Dm7 chord, you use D dorian.
If you see an A7 chord, you use A mixolydian
If you see a G diminished chord, you use a diminshed scale.

You can apply some licks if you know they will work over a chord progression.
It is the same as rock except the style of soloing is slightly different and instead of using one scale, you are probably using a new one every bar or two.


Thank you sir.
#28
Quote by SonOfPest
Thank you sir.


No, don't thank him.

He's by no means wrong, but theres just SO many more modes you could also utilize for the same chords, as I said above.

Also, for Dm7, you can also use D phrygian.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Jun 13, 2011,
#29
Quote by Life Is Brutal
No, don't thank him.

He's by no means wrong, but theres just SO many more modes you could also utilize for the same chords, as I said above.

Also, for Dm7, you can also use D phrygian.


that's precisely why you don't think he's wrong. that's not how keys work.

if you absolutely have to call it D phrygian, then fine -- but it's not D phrygian. what it is depends on the key you're playing in.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#30
To be fair you could play D phrygian over a ii chord in C (Dm7) but it might not have the sound you were expecting. It's a cool effect if you know what it sounds like before you play it.
#31
Quote by AeolianWolf
that's precisely why you don't think he's wrong. that's not how keys work.

if you absolutely have to call it D phrygian, then fine -- but it's not D phrygian. what it is depends on the key you're playing in.


I was looking purely at how the modal scales lined up with the chord notes in a way that would let you use CST on this piece. The Bb Major scale contains the notes of D phrygian, so you would "Technically" be playing in Bb Major.

But likewise, why utilize D dorian over Dm7 if the progression is in C Major? Would you not just be using the C Major scale? (Not saying that THIS song's progression is in C)

@ Vlasco, if you play D phrygian over Dm7 in the key of C, wouldn't you have to use accidentals?
#32
Quote by Life Is Brutal
@ Vlasco, if you play D phrygian over Dm7 in the key of C, wouldn't you have to use accidentals?


That's actually the entire purpose of CST - to visualise accidentals. It would be entirely redundant to play the notes of D dorian in the key of C, because you wouldn't be achieving anything different from the C major scale with the exception of calling it something different. If you were to use CST, D phrygian would be a much more appropriate choice.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#33
Quote by AlanHB
That's actually the entire purpose of CST - to visualise accidentals. It would be entirely redundant to play the notes of D dorian in the key of C, because you wouldn't be achieving anything different from the C major scale with the exception of calling it something different. If you were to use CST, D phrygian would be a much more appropriate choice.


Thank you, that was very informative.
#34
Quote by Life Is Brutal
But likewise, why utilize D dorian over Dm7 if the progression is in C Major?


you wouldn't.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#36
Quote by Life Is Brutal

@ Vlasco, if you play D phrygian over Dm7 in the key of C, wouldn't you have to use accidentals?


Yes, Bb and Eb
#38
Quote by MikeDodge
Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually listened to the OP's song. It's a modern jazz piece and has nothing to do with ii-V-I's


It amazing how far this thread got sidetracked. I haven't heard this song before but I think it's really catchy. There's definately some modulation going on, but wouldn't be too hard to improvise over if you have a firm grasp on your scales.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#39
Quote by Sean0913
I think you are the only one that did. At least they got a good answer!

Sean


I did listen to it, and I thought that some CST and modal application could yield some interesting sounds, so I provided alternative scales over specific chords.

Quote by AlanHB
It amazing how far this thread got sidetracked. I haven't heard this song before but I think it's really catchy. There's definately some modulation going on, but wouldn't be too hard to improvise over if you have a firm grasp on your scales.


Yeah, its a good song.
#40
Quote by SupaScoopar
I've been asked to play a song for a show, it's called water sign, this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYJzwK4sxRg
I'm playing lead guitar, going to play what the saxophone or whatever it is is playing.
Only problem is that i'm going to improvise a solo on it, and this kind of music isnt exactly the type i'm best at, i wanna play something that really fits for it, my guitar teacher just gave me a scale that i should use for it, but not really much more.
Any suggestions or quick lessons that could help me? and maybe some cool jazz sounding licks i could use?



Did you work through that info I posted?

I should mention that after the intro it goes tot he F9 vamp first and then the "cool chords".
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