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#1
I am having a little bit of an argument with a friend. I want your definitions of a -2-5-1 chord progression?
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#3
this is not my definition, its THE definition: a chord progression using the 2nd, 5th, and 1st chords of the major scale. in the key of c: Dminor7, G7, Cmajor7. its most common in jazz, which almost always uses the 7ths, so i added those.
#4
"Two - Five - One" could mean chords of any tonality (major, minor, augmented, etc.) derived from any scale's second and fifth degrees. However, TMVATDI has it right: 95% of the time you hear "Two - Five - One", it's referring to the chord progression he listed above.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#5
You guys are awesome. How would this be comparative if at all to lets say the 12 bar blues?
Gibson SG - Rose
Fender Stratocaster Mexican-Lucy
Morgan Monroe 32-20 Acoustic
Epiphone Blues Custom 30
Peavey Delta Blues 15
Luther Drive
Russian Black Big Muff pi
Nano Muff
1982 NYC Big Muff Pi
Dunlop Crybaby
#6
Quote by GregJohnsonJr
You guys are awesome. How would this be comparative if at all to lets say the 12 bar blues?


You may want to brush up on harmonising the major and minor scales. A blues progression is often referred to as a I - IV - V progression, for the reason that the chords are build off the 1st, 4th and 5th notes of the parent scale.

Interestingly enough it's more common for a blues progression to go I7 - IV7 - I7 - V7 - IV7 - I7 - V7. Guess it's just easier to say I IV V
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#7
Quote by Naruto00121
It's a harmonic minor jazz chord progression. See here for more information:

http://www.jazclass.aust.com/scales/sca251mi.htm


not necessarily. it can be used with natural minor and (far more common in my experience) major as well. to restrict it to harmonic minor is limiting, especially since there aren't many applications of it in harmonic minor -- at least not as many as in major and natural minor.
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#8
Quote by GregJohnsonJr
You guys are awesome.

I take it you won your argument?

Quote by GregJohnsonJr
How would this be comparative if at all to lets say the 12 bar blues?


Similar: the ii and the IV serve the same purpose in the chord progression (hint: predominant,) but twelve-bar blues generally follows a certain framework for when each chord appears, most commonly the one Alan mentioned.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#9
He was arguing that it was the same and I dis agreed. If i had been wrong i am sure you guys would still be awesome. Of course he doesnt play guitar he plays a sax so hell if i know.
Gibson SG - Rose
Fender Stratocaster Mexican-Lucy
Morgan Monroe 32-20 Acoustic
Epiphone Blues Custom 30
Peavey Delta Blues 15
Luther Drive
Russian Black Big Muff pi
Nano Muff
1982 NYC Big Muff Pi
Dunlop Crybaby
#11
Quote by jayx124
the 2-5-1 progression is a diatonic progression in one key but the blues which uses dominants for each chord is really comprised of 3 different keys so it is not the same at all


I don't know about that, dawg. I think they just use the b7 for color.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#12
Quote by jayx124
the 2-5-1 progression is a diatonic progression in one key but the blues which uses dominants for each chord is really comprised of 3 different keys so it is not the same at all


Are you suggesting that blues songs modulate on every chord?
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#16
ii-V-I can be major or minor, although augmented isn't a tonality so it can't be that. it doesn't need the 7ths either although they are common in jazz. also very common in classical music, listen to basically any classical perfect cadence and i'd say the majority of them are ii-V-I.

you could also have iidim-V-I (major, but with a iidim from minor scale) or II-V-i (minor, but with II major from the major key, or VofV, depending on which way you look at it.) could also be II-V-I (VofV-V-I)
#18
Quote by jayx124
the 2-5-1 progression is a diatonic progression in one key but the blues which uses dominants for each chord is really comprised of 3 different keys so it is not the same at all


3 different keys? so you're saying that if i use a simple V7 - I, i'm modulating?

it's in 1 key, dude. that's why we call it a 12 bar blues in A, and not a 12 bar blues in A, D, and E.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#19
Its just a back pedal of the circle of 5th. It can start anywhere and end anywhere. For instance while there is a major and a minor 251, you can also have what starts as a minor 251 but resolves on major 1 chord.

Also,there are a ton of places to interject a 2-5 all over the blues progression to imply that each new chord is a new 1 chord. It creates some serious forward motion resolving to the next cord in the progression.
#20
Quote by AeolianWolf
3 different keys? so you're saying that if i use a simple V7 - I, i'm modulating?

it's in 1 key, dude. that's why we call it a 12 bar blues in A, and not a 12 bar blues in A, D, and E.


if you are playing V7 - I7 then you are modulating.

usually a piece is called in the first key of the tune even if there are modulation in the tune
Last edited by jayx124 at Jun 12, 2011,
#21
Quote by jayx124
if you are playing V7 - I7 then you are modulating.

usually a piece is called in the first key of the tune even if there are modulation in the tune


got to be honest with you -- i don't think you understand modulation. the I7 is a I. a tonic. that's your key, whether it's a 7 or not.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#23
Quote by jayx124


right. because every site everywhere has 100% correct, factual information.

the very fact that it's still a IV is testament to the fact that it's not a modulation. it's in the key of C. sorry.

if you really have to, call it a tonicization. but it's not a modulation.

but don't take my word for it -- let's see what others have to say on the topic.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jun 12, 2011,
#26
Quote by jayx124
this is interesting I have always looked at the blues as having 3 tonal centers. if you say there is one tonal center what is the base major scale which will fit all 3 dom7 chords?


the one which is the tonic. everything else is used as a color tone. there is such a thing as an accidental. just because there's an Eb doesn't mean that a piece is not in the key of C major -- in fact, that's what makes blues sound like blues.

the second link you've given even says (under the form of the 12 bar blues section) that the three chords involved are the tonic, subdominant, and dominant -- they're not each their own tonic.
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#27
Quote by jayx124
if you are playing V7 - I7 then you are modulating.


Not necessarily. First of all, chords do not have to function "properly." By the same token, I could have a F#*7 and not have it resolve to G. Even though I7 - IV7 has the I7 functioning as the dominant in the IV-chord's key, I would argue that it's merely a brief tonicization of the predominant chord and NOT a full-blown modulation.

EDIT: Oops, didn't see the second page...guess Wolf beat me to it.
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Last edited by soviet_ska at Jun 12, 2011,
#28
Quote by GregJohnsonJr
I am having a little bit of an argument with a friend. I want your definitions of a -2-5-1 chord progression?

a chord progression that goes from ii to V to I. what else would it be?
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#29
Quote by GuitarMunky
a chord progression that goes from ii to V to I. what else would it be?


II v I
ii v I
ii V I

Idk, since the ts didn't use roman numerals, I think we can make them whatever we want.
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#30
Quote by vampirelazarus
II v I
ii v I
ii V I

Idk, since the ts didn't use roman numerals, I think we can make them whatever we want.


Sure, for arguments sake you can.

I'm not too into arguing for the sake of it though, so I'll just restate it this way...


Quote by GregJohnsonJr
I am having a little bit of an argument with a friend. I want your definitions of a -2-5-1 chord progression?


a chord progression that goes from the two chord to the five chord, which then progresses to the one chord of a key.... what else would it be?
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 12, 2011,
#31
Sorry, I wasn't trying to start an argument, only trying to be funny....
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#32
Quote by AeolianWolf

but don't take my word for it -- let's see what others have to say on the topic.


Find where the song resolves to.
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#33
Quote by vampirelazarus
Sorry, I wasn't trying to start an argument, only trying to be funny....


NP

sometimes It's hard to tell!
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#34
Quote by GuitarMunky
NP

sometimes It's hard to tell!


I guess that means I need to add the "i do it for the lols" to my signature....
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#35
Quote by jayx124
if you are playing V7 - I7 then you are modulating.

usually a piece is called in the first key of the tune even if there are modulation in the tune


If you're playing V-I then you are defining the center of the key actually. The 7ths are added more for colour then for function (as someone already stated, shout it out if you already did!)

In a blues progression like that, the IV is a different tonal center but not a different key (there's a difference). A new tonal center only lasts a bar or three, (in this case, two bars of IV). A modulation will last longer than that and usually be set up with chords moving in that direction. You are right to think that I-IV looks like a modulation because of it's chords, but you (and that site) are wrong to say that it is a modulation solely based on that. It's a I-IV progression, not a V-I in the key of IV.
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#36
Quote by Skully12
If you're playing V-I then you are defining the center of the key actually. The 7ths are added more for colour then for function (as someone already stated, shout it out if you already did!)

In a blues progression like that, the IV is a different tonal center but not a different key (there's a difference). A new tonal center only lasts a bar or three, (in this case, two bars of IV). A modulation will last longer than that and usually be set up with chords moving in that direction. You are right to think that I-IV looks like a modulation because of it's chords, but you (and that site) are wrong to say that it is a modulation solely based on that. It's a I-IV progression, not a V-I in the key of IV.


You nailed it. Just FYI, establishing a new tonal center for a short amount of time is called "tonicization".
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#37
Quote by soviet_ska
You nailed it. Just FYI, establishing a new tonal center for a short amount of time is called "tonicization".


I knew I was forgetting the word ahaha. Thanks!
"Forget the rules. If it sounds good, it is good."
-Eddie Van Halen
#38
No, there's no modulation or tonicization in the blues. It just I IV V. The IV doesn't sound like a I in a new key; it sounds like IV. The V sounds like V. The added minor 7th in each chord is just an approximation of a note that is in between a major 7th and a minor 7th; a note that someone from West Africa would have sung. It's of a melodic origin, but it got placed in the harmony at some point. Our modern scale doesn't have this interval, so we try to play something close (it's the same with the 3rd).
#39
Quote by Harmosis
No, there's no modulation or tonicization in the blues. It just I IV V. The IV doesn't sound like a I in a new key; it sounds like IV. The V sounds like V. The added minor 7th in each chord is just an approximation of a note that is in between a major 7th and a minor 7th; a note that someone from West Africa would have sung. It's of a melodic origin, but it got placed in the harmony at some point. Our modern scale doesn't have this interval, so we try to play something close (it's the same with the 3rd).


Agreed. There's no tonic shifting of any sort going on with the blues. Everything sounds like it does in relation to one tonic - the IV sounds like the IV, the V sounds like the V, regardless of where you are in the song, it'll resolve to I.

You'd think that people would notice this, considering it's the most common chord progression ever.
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