IS a member of a band allowed to charge more money if they own a PA?

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#1
The bass player owns the PA system we use to gig with. Approx. $1800 used value rig.
He is adamant about charging an extra $100+ each gig to use his PA.
I let him use a bass guitar I own because we do alot of stuff in Eb so he doesn't have to tune down between songs. I also have approx. $4000 invested in my guitar equipment. Does he have the right to earn more just because he has a PA?
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#4
Do you use the PA just for the singer or do you put the whole band through it? And is the bassist the singer?
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#5
You tell him he can pack his shit and get the fuck out unless he stops being a self-important douchebag.
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#6
Bassist making the most money? Something is wrong with the universe.
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#7
Do you mean that he gets all 100 of it or that the band collectively would make 100 more because of you guys using your PA? Because we have done that before, and it makes sense. If you guys supply the sound and run it, you should get paid more than the other bands that dont. But he shouldnt be pocketing it all himself. If he wants to do that, tell him he needs to run sound for other bands and when you guys are playing you should split the money equally or put it in a band fund. Just my two cents.
#8
Quote by FireFromTheVoid
Bassist making the most money? Something is wrong with the universe.



+1.

Look, it might be his PA, but its a band. It gets split evenly. Know what? I write, record, have my guitar rig, have a bass and used to have a shitty amp, sing... I should earn the same as everyone else every gig because without them my music wouldn't exist live. Explain that to your bassist, and if he's really extremely adamant about recouping the money for the PA, let him try to find another band.
#9
Yes I agree with ya'll. He pockets the extra $100+ makes whatever the band gets paid.
Every member sings a little bit...even though he does sing the most. And Usually he just mics the kick drum and vocals because I can never here myself in the mix...he doesn't even bring monitors.

Or check this shit out...he uses these shitty 15W practice amps that have AIDS and blown speakers and tries to pass them off as monitors.

He runs sound for schools and has long since paid off his PA that his father sold to him at a family price. If he wasn't playing in this band he wouldn't be making nothing, band-wise.
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
Last edited by WesM.Vaughan at Jun 15, 2011,
#10
The amps have aids?

EDIT: try straightening him out, talk to him first then yelling, maybe break something. And if he still wants to be greedy find a replacement and tell him goodbye.
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Last edited by FireFromTheVoid at Jun 15, 2011,
#11
I would think this through but if he's using your guitar then he's full of shit. Tell him your going to start charging him 100 a show to use it.
#12
bullshit. money gets split evenly, anything else is time to look for a new bassist or a new band.
#13
You could charge the venue more if you have your own sound system, but every band member gets an even cut. Contrary to what you might think, none of you is more important than the others.
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#14
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Yes I agree with ya'll. He pockets the extra $100+ makes whatever the band gets paid.
Every member sings a little bit...even though he does sing the most. And Usually he just mics the kick drum and vocals because I can never here myself in the mix...he doesn't even bring monitors.

Or check this shit out...he uses these shitty 15W practice amps that have AIDS and blown speakers and tries to pass them off as monitors.

He runs sound for schools and has long since paid off his PA that his father sold to him at a family price. If he wasn't playing in this band he wouldn't be making nothing, band-wise.

Kick him the **** out.
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#15
I'm actually inclined to disagree--$100 is pretty steep if it's a crap PA and he does a bad job setting it up, but if he provides the sound equipment you guys use and put wear on every gig and if he sets it up as "he usually just mics the kick drums and vocals" suggests, then I'd say he can charge if he wants to. You're basically asking him to be the sound guy and the sound guy gets paid both for setting up the sound and extra if he has to provide his own gear, so it seems relatively status quo to me.

I've provided free PA for bands I've played with in the past and don't mind because my PA stuff is all crappy, and it's rare that we need it (being smart enough to not usually gig shit holes without their own PA system) but if I had a multi-thousand dollar system and had to go to the extra trouble of hauling it along, loading and unloading it, and risking all the damage to it from the rest of the band's use, I would be pretty fair in demanding a bigger cut.

The price of your guitar set up isn't relevant as the bass player doesn't use it. If you're loaning him a bass every single gig, you're justified, I think, in holding that against him and the bigger cut he wants.
#16
Well, it depends. You didn't give us much information, or at least enough for me to give you an honest answer. If you would, reply to:

1) Are you a band playing only a set or two a night with one or more other bands on the bill? Or, are you more of a "bar band", playing 3-4 hours, all night at a bar?
2) If he the only one responsible for transporting the PA.
3) How much PA is he bringing? And is it reasonable quality.
4) Adding to #3, does he run sound all night?

My take with the info you've provided:
I've been in both situations, bandwise, where I'd be in a band that played only a set or two a night with one or more support acts and in a 4-hour-a-gig type of band. In the former, if we set up sound then our band normally takes a bit more of the kitty, although it's a reasonable amount. For instance:
Let's say we play one set and play with 3 other bands playing the same length at a show where we set up and for the most part run sound and the total take for the whole night is, let's say $400 bucks divided evenly. We'll take our 100 bucks for playing our set, then we'll take, usually, around 10-20 bucks from each of the other acts for both transporting, setting up, and running the PA. So, they'd most likely end up with 80 bucks per band, and we'd Leave with 160, providing we charged $20 per band on the evening.
(edit: we also provide PA on a "you break it, you buy it" sort of agreement with the other acts and/or promoters.)
If you're playing in an "all-night" type of band, then sure, he might be entitled to a bit more for gas providing he's transporting the equipment but no more than he would be spending in gas. In all reality, that offsets the cost of his gas and leaves a fair split of the money between the band members.
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#17
We are a bar band 3-4 hour gigs. He usually sets the sound up at the beginning of the show but is often found messin' with it during a song. I have helped him transport his PA system.
it is like a 12+ Channel Mixer with two big ass QSC speakers. I understand the gas, however I have to spend the most most gas money in order to travel to where we practice each week.
I really appreciate the advice as this has been a serious dilemma,...that and band members learning songs.
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#18
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
We are a bar band 3-4 hour gigs. He usually sets the sound up at the beginning of the show but is often found messin' with it during a song. I have helped him transport his PA system.
it is like a 12+ Channel Mixer with two big ass QSC speakers. I understand the gas, however I have to spend the most most gas money in order to travel to where we practice each week.
I really appreciate the advice as this has been a serious dilemma,...that and band members learning songs.

Sounds like you guys could come to some sort of agreement, unless the guy's just a dick and you want rid of him altogether on other counts besides this PA quandry.

How much is your band making per night, if I might ask?
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#19
Usually about $100 per person sometimes more with tips. That doesn't include what he takes out for his PA which the past couple of gigs I have tried to cut that out. However I am sensing that he is only scheduling gigs where he can get paid extra for his PA.
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#22
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Usually about $100 per person sometimes more with tips. That doesn't include what he takes out for his PA which the past couple of gigs I have tried to cut that out. However I am sensing that he is only scheduling gigs where he can get paid extra for his PA.

Here's what I'd do:

I'd have a talk with him in person either just you two or with the whole band present. Providing you're willing to compromise with him, I'd let him know that since he bearing the burden of PA that it is reasonable that he does take a bit more of the kitty, but $100 bucks is disproportionate and unfair, especially if he's not the only person hauling and loading the equipment. I don't know how many people are in your band, but if it's $100 bucks a person, offer to give him a fair amount for his gas expenditures. $25-$40 a gig perhaps, depending on the length of travel.

If he's still a dick and wants an ungodly amound of money for providing a mediocre PA, then tell him to piss off and find someone else.
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#23
Technically my band's bassist owns the P.A also (...what is it with bassists and PAs!? ), well, we're putting a percentage of our gig money into his wallet so that the speakers will officially be the band's speakers, but the desk is his and stuff.

But he doesn't demand payment for it.

I think he's just being a douche.
Tell him to leave if he's gonna act like that. I'm sure P.A hire is less than $100 (hell my band, prior to having a P.A, borrowed some powered JBL speakers and it cost us £25 essentially, which is nothing, it's like...$32 or something) so you could get by without that.

I think what he's doing is trying to get some more money out of you by thinking "they need a bassist, I own the PA I can swindle them here", what you need to do is just tell him that if he acts that way he can leave.
#24
Yea that sounds more fair...Which is why I was thinking I should just buy my own PA and get the extra myself...Then I would have something. If it were only $25 per gig, after 100 gigs you could have a reasonably decent used PA for that. Am I right? Would it be worth it to invest in my own PA and become the guy charging extra or should I leave it be?
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#26
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Yea that sounds more fair...Which is why I was thinking I should just buy my own PA and get the extra myself...Then I would have something. If it were only $25 per gig, after 100 gigs you could have a reasonably decent used PA for that. Am I right? Would it be worth it to invest in my own PA and become the guy charging extra or should I leave it be?


Yeah that's what my band were thinking. The bassist bought a desk for £400 and refuses to take money for it cos he'll be using it for other stuff. But instead of hiring speakers, because we're getting paid around £200 a gig, we thought, we might as well just buy our own because the cost of hiring would end up being more expensive than if we just bought one and let a bit of every gig payment help pay for it.
#27
Just tell him that is $100 extra a gig has paid for his pa and he wont be getting it anymore. if he has a problem with that tell him to leave the band. if he accepts it, i would suggest saving a bit from each gig payment so that you can get your own pa in case he leaves later on
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#28
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Yea that sounds more fair...Which is why I was thinking I should just buy my own PA and get the extra myself...Then I would have something. If it were only $25 per gig, after 100 gigs you could have a reasonably decent used PA for that. Am I right? Would it be worth it to invest in my own PA and become the guy charging extra or should I leave it be?

Yes, it could never hurt investing in some PA equipment.

Depending on how much your band needs for the gigs you're booking, you could probably get by with running a nice powered mixer into a set of decent 15's and maybe a set of 18's if you needed the extra bass and have some monitors to go along with that.

If you're playing at places that need a large PA, they most likely have an in house setup.
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#29
Yes I would If the consensus is that charging extra for a PA is "Bad". It doesn't matter, however from a business perspective it makes more sense to invest in the PA and actually pay it off by charging more at gigs and being able to own it considering I have the capital to invest in a PA.

Since we are talking about business...another issue I had was with a guy who does original songs, normally solo acoustic sets. He asked me to sit in for him and play some lead guitar and I played some lap steel. He doesn't have enough originals to play an entire gig, one set at most. So we did a lot of covers also. Anyways he mentioned something about splitting the money down the middle, however when we played the other night, he gave me about $20 more in tips however he walked out with probably $150+ more than I did.
He had a friend that ran PA for free b/c he gets free beer.
I feel I contributed to the gig as much as he did and since he is not some big name player I am wondering if it is fair for him to earn more or if we play in the future. "What if" my guitar playing was responsible for more tips and caused us to get more gigs and have more people come to shows? Just because he has a few originals, Is he allowed to earn more?
Yea it is called The XXXXXX XXXXXXXX Band <---Not my name (B/c I don't give a shit about that). To me it is about business. If I wanted to promote someone it would be myself, and my own original music. Not trying to be selfish, just realistic.
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#30
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Yes I would If the consensus is that charging extra for a PA is "Bad". It doesn't matter, however from a business perspective it makes more sense to invest in the PA and actually pay it off by charging more at gigs and being able to own it considering I have the capital to invest in a PA.

Since we are talking about business...another issue I had was with a guy who does original songs, normally solo acoustic sets. He asked me to sit in for him and play some lead guitar and I played some lap steel. He doesn't have enough originals to play an entire gig, one set at most. So we did a lot of covers also. Anyways he mentioned something about splitting the money down the middle, however when we played the other night, he gave me about $20 more in tips however he walked out with probably $150+ more than I did.
He had a friend that ran PA for free b/c he gets free beer.
I feel I contributed to the gig as much as he did and since he is not some big name player I am wondering if it is fair for him to earn more or if we play in the future. "What if" my guitar playing was responsible for more tips and caused us to get more gigs and have more people come to shows? Just because he has a few originals, Is he allowed to earn more?
Yea it is called The XXXXXX XXXXXXXX Band <---Not my name (B/c I don't give a shit about that). To me it is about business. If I wanted to promote someone it would be myself, and my own original music. Not trying to be selfish, just realistic.


I'd love to talk the music biz with a fellow gigging musician, but instead of drawing this thread out with off-topic convo, PM me. I've got 5-6 years and easily 3-4 hundred different gigs under my belt and would love to impart any help I can to UG'ers.
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#31
You must be able to hire a PA for less than that! How much money are you making for him to be able to take away an extra £100?!
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#32
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
No, he doesn't have a right to charge more.



Of course he has the "right" to charge more. They also have the "right" not to accept it.

They can tell him it will be split up among the band or kick him out or keep letting him make the extra $100.

If he says "I deserve an extra $100" and they say "ok", more power to him.
#33
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He's no more entitled to more money for having his own PA than a guitarist is for having his own guitar.


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#34
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You tell him he can pack his shit and get the fuck out unless he stops being a self-important douchebag.


This, even if he was a lead guitarist or a drummer I'd still do the same.
#35
Are you f***ing me? Dude, don't let him use your goddamn bass. Tell him to f*** the f*** off! Charge you to use his PA psh... dude you are in a BAND together man, shouldn't you be like brothers, let eachother use eachother's stuff and get along. Damn.
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#36
I would say no. Your all part of the band. As someone else had said you can use two main things against him. A-without you his PA would be worthless and vice versa. B-if hes using your guitar every gig thats a similar expense to the band using his PA
#37
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#38
I'm gonna disagree slightly with the general concensus here.
He has a right to charge you guys for hiring his PA, after all, it's his PA so you have to use it under his rules, but then, there's no rule that says you have to use his PA.

I suggest that you suggest to him that if he's insisting on trying to take advantage of the band for his own personal profit in this way, causing everyone but him to lose a percentage of their wages on PA hire for the band, it would be fairer if you hired a PA from outside the band, that way, everyone will be losing the same amount of money for PA hire.
Remind him that it's always prudent for a business such as yours to 'shop around' for a cheaper deal too.

Then sit back and watch him do the math and figure out that by hiring another PA, he's going to lose money when he could be making more money by simply letting you guys use his for free and see what he says then.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Jun 15, 2011,
#39
I'd say, strictly speaking, he does. However, I'd recommend just hiring a PA. It's cheaper, and that way it does cause tension within the band.

Edit: ^ That, every single part of that.
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#40
His equipment, his rules.

You do however have every right to negotiate.

What it is worth, what it cost him, what your equipment is worth etc. aren't relevant to the situation.

IMO, he does deserve some compensation for providing 'common use' equipment, but the amount should be equally agreed on.

Remember, you're getting paid to do this. It's a business, treat it as such.
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