#1
So I know how these devices work. I want to get that tube warmth and saturation at not that high volume level. So if I were to attenuate the volume level and mic the amp (w/o attenuating the level too much), is that feasible?

Will the quality of Setup A which is (Guitar - Amp on Low - Cab - Mic) be lesser than Setup B (Guitar - Amp on High - Attenuator - Cab - Mic)? [While the DB coming out from Cab is relatively same for both cases]. I know this is a subjective question but if anyone with experience in these setups answers me, that'll be highly appreciated before I buy an attenuator for a couple of hundred bucks and realize I could just get almost same results with Amp on Low.

I own a Bugera 333XL Tube amp with matching Bugera 16Ohm cab.
#2
Well, you've said it yourself - to get the tone you want, you need to crank it. Either get one of those sundproof boxes and mic the cab up in there, or get an attenuator
#3
Well yeah but you know with the attenuator theres tone loss. So I guess I was comparing the magnitude of tone loss on Setup A vs Setup B
#4
Well... how much are you willing to spend on an attenuator? On the lower price range a lot of people like the Weber Mass (I've never tried one). Seems to be the favorite over the THD Hot Plate from most people who've tried both.


I have an Aracom attenuator and as far as your question about micing - You gain what you get by having the volume turned up; you get the powertubes working more than you would be able to otherwise at the same volume level and it sounds "better". BUT you lose the reaction of the speakers and the air movement when you have more volume pushed through them which is part of what makes the sound better when your volume knob is turned up. I suppose you aren't getting the speakers moving much in either of your scenarios, but it's something to consider.


It sounds like you would be better off making some type of isolation box for your speaker cab, something like this: http://www.amptone.com/diyisobox.htm Even if you end up with some sound leakage with that option, at least you're probably containing a lot of it.
#7
Quote by ChrisBW
Well... how much are you willing to spend on an attenuator? On the lower price range a lot of people like the Weber Mass (I've never tried one). Seems to be the favorite over the THD Hot Plate from most people who've tried both.


I have an Aracom attenuator and as far as your question about micing - You gain what you get by having the volume turned up; you get the powertubes working more than you would be able to otherwise at the same volume level and it sounds "better". BUT you lose the reaction of the speakers and the air movement when you have more volume pushed through them which is part of what makes the sound better when your volume knob is turned up. I suppose you aren't getting the speakers moving much in either of your scenarios, but it's something to consider.


It sounds like you would be better off making some type of isolation box for your speaker cab, something like this: http://www.amptone.com/diyisobox.htm Even if you end up with some sound leakage with that option, at least you're probably containing a lot of it.


Great post!

But in your experience, would you say that what you have gained by micing w/ an attenuator is considerbly different (not gonna ask "considerably better" because thats subjective and hard to answer) when compared to micing with low volume w/o attenuator?

I would consider an isolation box, but do they have those for 4x12s? It'd be rather massive haha.

@ 311ZOSOVHJH: Progressive Metal, Alternative Metal
#8
You don't really need powertube distortion for what you're playing, what you're missing by turning down the volume is the speakers pushing air. Did you click on the link in my post? Just follow what he did but make it taller - I'd recommend making so the front opens up for a 4x12 though. It'd be fairly big but a 4x8 sheet will cover it.
#9
an iso cab for a 4x12 is pointless, you generally only record one speaker anyways. if you're gonna go that route build one for a single 12 inch speaker
Call me Dom
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#10
Quote by lbj273
an iso cab for a 4x12 is pointless, you generally only record one speaker anyways. if you're gonna go that route build one for a single 12 inch speaker


Depends what funds he has available to buy another speaker.

And I wouldn't want to put my 5150 or JSX through a single V30
#11
record with your amps lineout and then use cab impulses?
Originally posted by primusfan
When you crank up the gain to 10 and switch to the lead channel, it actually sounds like you are unjustifiably bombing an innocent foreign land.


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#12
Quote by ChrisBW
You don't really need powertube distortion for what you're playing, what you're missing by turning down the volume is the speakers pushing air. Did you click on the link in my post? Just follow what he did but make it taller - I'd recommend making so the front opens up for a 4x12 though. It'd be fairly big but a 4x8 sheet will cover it.


Why wouldn't I need powertube distortion for this style of playing?

Also, my plan was to crank them up a lot and use the line out from the 333XL to audio interface to PC and convolved with cab impulse. And, if possible, record the mic-ed version at the same time making it 1 take 2 tracks (just for testing atm).

The Line out is post poweramp (im fairly certain), so it might be affected with powertube distortion, but im stumped, why wouldn't I need this powertube distortion for this style?
#13
Quote by InanezGuitars44
record with your amps lineout and then use cab impulses?

Hahah that was my plan, you beat me to it by a few seconds (read previous post)
#14
because power amp distortion is loose and saggy, not tight and snappy like preamp distortion, which is what you want for metal
Call me Dom
Quote by Dmaj7
I don't know how to count canadians, the metric system is hard

Quote by gregs1020
well if lbj pokes his head in here and there's no nuts shit's gonna go doooooooowwwwwwwwwn.



{Pedalboard Thread Native: The Muffin Man}
#16
Quote by ChrisBW
Well... how much are you willing to spend on an attenuator? On the lower price range a lot of people like the Weber Mass (I've never tried one). Seems to be the favorite over the THD Hot Plate from most people who've tried both.


I have an Aracom attenuator and as far as your question about micing - You gain what you get by having the volume turned up; you get the powertubes working more than you would be able to otherwise at the same volume level and it sounds "better". BUT you lose the reaction of the speakers and the air movement when you have more volume pushed through them which is part of what makes the sound better when your volume knob is turned up. I suppose you aren't getting the speakers moving much in either of your scenarios, but it's something to consider.


It sounds like you would be better off making some type of isolation box for your speaker cab, something like this: http://www.amptone.com/diyisobox.htm Even if you end up with some sound leakage with that option, at least you're probably containing a lot of it.

This post says it all. Except for one thing.

Because of the way amps being recorded interact with spaces, the louder your amp is turned up, the less of the room sound you'll get. I'm not going to go into the precise details, but in general small amps=Big guitar sounds, Big amps=small guitar sounds. If you have a nice room to record in, you might want to capture that
#17
Quote by OhSoInsane

@ 311ZOSOVHJH: Progressive Metal, Alternative Metal

Yeah, you don't want more power tube distortion for this. Alternative maybe....for something like Alice In Chains, which is a bit sludgy imo.

iso cupboard
#18
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Yeah, you don't want more power tube distortion for this. Alternative maybe....for something like Alice In Chains, which is a bit sludgy imo.

iso cupboard


Oh shit, did not know that guys, thanks for the heads up. What do you guys think about like a Killswitch Engage like tone, most preamplifier as well?
Cause damn that's a sweet tone lol.
If I have preamplifier volume to 7 or more, is that good enough? (At a master of about 3/4) [yeah this is still pretty loud lol]

Thanks for the help guys, appreciate it
#20
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
^ not sure if kidding




TS. As your ears develop more you will be able to tell the difference between Preamp and Poweramp distortion. Metal tends to be mostly preamp. Those genres you listed do not need Poweramp distortion at all. Cranking the amp isn't an issue.
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#21
Haha, not kidding lol, I was serious. Like ok ok ok ok. Let me explain what I said (I typed it quick on my iPhone so its probably not clear).
Say I set my preamp to 7 and the master to 4, which is pretty ****ing loud lol. After doing this, I put an attenuator in the middle to cut the volume. Meanwhile I just record from the line-out and use a cab impulse.
Is this preamp volume/master volume combination loud enough for that saturation and METAL tone? I know and I fully realize that its amp/person specific and that I should test it out myself instead of bothering people with such questions because experimenting is always the best way but I do not have the attenuator (yet) and I can't crank it up with my grandma staying with us for a few months in the room next to mine lol. At what levels would you guys say the saturation and warmth of that tube awesomeness is perfect for metal? Just answer it to the best you can, I realize I ask for too many specifics which are hard to answer w/o sound.
#22
An attenuator is not useful for your situation. You're running your master too high. If you want metal distortion at low volumes, put a pedal in front, turn the master way down, and the preamp up to the right volume.

Knocking a ton of volume down with an attenuator is going to choke that amp out really badly. You're going to lose all your treble and it's going to go to mush. You can use the attenuator to take just a little bit of volume off, but it's probably not worth the cost to do that.
#23
@Roc8995: Hmm, I see what you're saying. However, I am actually recording off of the Line Out (post poweramp) jack of Bugera 333XL. Like the sound coming out of the cab could sound like shit for all I care. It'd be nice if it didn't because then I could simultaneously mic it as well but its not required. So will I still need like a tubescreamer/overdrive pedal that im guessing you're talking about?
#24
If you're recording off the line out, this entire discussion is pointless. Turn the master all the way down. It should be after the line out, so it will lower the speaker volume without effecting the line out. No pedals or attenuator required, unless you want a pedal for a different tone.

Just for clarification - the line out is post preamp, not power amp.
#25
WTH?? Really? I had mentioned in this thread before that it was post-poweramp but no one said anything about it, weird. I searched for this a while back and found nothing about Bugeras. However, I did come across the JSX manual (333XL is modelled after the JSX), it said that the line out "provides a post-power amp signal to drive another power amp/speaker system while maintaining the amplifiers tone"

So I reasoned that it was post-poweramp..
#26
it could very well be post power amp but it won't be speaker loaded.

so you'll have to use a cab sim in your recording software.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#27
I'd be surprised if it were after the power amp. I'd try rigging it up and turning the master all the way down. Your preamp controls should effect the line out and the master should not.

Min's right about speaker emulation though, you'll want to run it through something for that.
#28
Oh I have to use a cab sim for sure, I have tried it already, I use the catharsis impulses. I didn't have the balls to turn up the master though lol. If it helps at all, my podxt live was running in fx loop when I recorded it. And the recorded signal did have effects provided by XTL
#29
well they could do post power amp...but it wouldn't mute your speakers.

speaker load is part of the power amp.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#30
I really hope its post poweramp, it'd open up a bunch of tone(tonal?) options playing around with the presence, master, etc