#1
I heard to the song "I will" by Beatles and could by ear,figure out what the chords were.
All the chords were part of the harmonized F major scale,some were borrowed from the F minor,some 7th chords were from the scle harmonized in 7ths.
There was a G major somewhere,which does not fit into any of these.
What do I do about it?

I did a harmonic analysis of it.(but for that G major everything fit in)
Now what?I mean,is there anything I must theoretically "notice" after I find out the chords?("Look at how the writer has written it","It could also have been like this")
How do I do such stuff?As for the song,I quite accomplished it.
But I want to be advancing theoretically,as I play more and more songs by ear.

What should I do now?What should I question?
Thank You
#2
Find how the progressions relate to the scale, and do the same with other songs. note commonly used chord progressions and ones which are especially good. (ie. ii v i )

Also pay attention to dynamics in songs and learn about using dynamics to good effect. You won't play guitar as hard over someones solo as you might for the intro when it's just you.

study songs. countlessly. It really is the way to develop an intricate understanding of song writing and general theory.
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#5
how about you forget that stupid theory crap and use your ears. Do you think the beatles sat down and wondered about it or just jammed? If you do not use your ears now and rely on theory to guide you I personally think it SLOWS DOWN your progression of being a good songwriter and improviser. Basic theory is all you need....
#6
Quote by Appetite_4_GNR
how about you forget that stupid theory crap and use your ears. Do you think the beatles sat down and wondered about it or just jammed? If you do not use your ears now and rely on theory to guide you I personally think it SLOWS DOWN your progression of being a good songwriter and improviser. Basic theory is all you need....


Cool story bro. So, in other words you cannot do it?

Well that's fine, no surprise there.

I don't think you have a place to tell this guy how and why he shouldn't learn and explore these ideas. Your rationalizations are fine...for you, but you're not a dude I'd take theory advice from, especially since you don't know it, and you cannot name the name of an exotic tuning without trying to Google it, and you need the free chord finders to pretend to know what you are talking about.

How about you take your ignorance and sit this one out? Your advice is terrible, seeing as you don't even know theory yourself, or what you are talking about? Stupid theory crap, indeed.

Be ignorant all you like...he doesn't have to be.

Best,

Sean
#7
what were the two preceding chords to the G major and which two followed it?
#8
Quote by Appetite_4_GNR
Do you think the beatles sat down and wondered about it?


Yes, actually. Part of the reason the Beatles stayed so fresh is because they tried many different chord progressions. They modulated frequently and always experimented with time and rhythm.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#9
Quote by Appetite_4_GNR
how about you forget that stupid theory crap and use your ears. Do you think the beatles sat down and wondered about it or just jammed? If you do not use your ears now and rely on theory to guide you I personally think it SLOWS DOWN your progression of being a good songwriter and improviser. Basic theory is all you need....


I find that theory helps a lot.
When I get stuck on a part I use it to get ideas of what I could do next. And then listen to which one I like most.
And I'm pretty sure the Beatles did their share of analyzing too.
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#10
Well if anyone knows anything about the Beatles, a lot of their theory came from a gentleman by the name George Martin. So this whole statement at best is pure ignorance. Anyone care to propose that GM didn't know theory or have a hand in their songs?

He went to Guidhall School of Music - Studied theory, arrangement, orchestration and composition.

Either learn it or don't, but people need to stop with their rationalizations about their own need to learn. We get it it, you don't need it, here's your cookie, but let it go with the advice, because you don't need to justify your own ignorance by spreading it further for others to buy.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jun 20, 2011,
#11
What is the context? Could be a secondary dominant V/V. For example in V/V > V > I or G > C > F.
#12
Quote by Appetite_4_GNR
If you do not use your ears now and rely on theory to guide you I personally think it SLOWS DOWN your progression of being a good songwriter and improviser.


this attitude is a result of poor comprehension and consistent failure in application.

i'm not even shitting on you. that's purely a logical, objective analysis.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#13
Harmonic analysis:

F Dm Gm C7
I vi ii V7

F Dm C
I vi V


Dm Gm F(will i wait a loooonley....)
vi ii I

F Bb C7(no vocals here,bgm)
I IV V7

Bb C Dm F(love you forever...)
IV V vi I

Bb C F F7(love you with all....)
IV V I I7

Bb C Dm F(love you whenever...)
IV V vi I

G(here it is) C Bb Am Gm(love you when we're apart....)
V IV iii ii


however theres a Gm at the end:

Gm F(lala lala la la laaaaa)
ii I

I hope I heard the chords right.
Last edited by nerdinator at Jun 22, 2011,
#14
Quote by evolucian
what were the two preceding chords to the G major and which two followed it?


preceding,Dm and F
succeeding,C and Bb
#15
Quote by Banjocal
Find how the progressions relate to the scale, and do the same with other songs. note commonly used chord progressions and ones which are especially good. (ie. ii v i )

Also pay attention to dynamics in songs and learn about using dynamics to good effect. You won't play guitar as hard over someones solo as you might for the intro when it's just you.

study songs. countlessly. It really is the way to develop an intricate understanding of song writing and general theory.

Please help me out here:
I didn't understand "note how progressions relate to scale".
what are dynamics in a song?
"study".Thats what I intend to do.But study what?That is what I am asking in this thread
#16
There are a lot of ways that you could look at this, but in the end it resolves to F. I tend to see things sometimes as relating to Jazz, so in that regard:

I guess I'd look at it is borrowing from C, and the chords functions change - G acts as a V-I to C - the Bb a bVII Am a vi voice leading to Gm, which is a ii, (to me I'd see this as a return to F) and instead of back to F via a C7 it just does a ii- I in F. I could also see the Gm in C minor, but I'm inclined to see it in this case as a temporary key change, or just using outside chords, and still resolving on F in the end. However you look at it. There's a lot of circle of 5ths things going on here basically, just like in Jazz.

That F7 definitely signals a strong V-I change to Bb, imo.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jun 20, 2011,
#17
Yeah, what sean said... you can look at it as borrowing.

I'd take that G- C as a V-I ... then the I (C) becomes a V (like Coltrane's cycle... not his, I just associate it with him)which returns it back to your key (and that ends that little cycle abruptly)... Gm being the ii and everything falls into place again nicely.

But yeah... its a subtle change... pretty cool. There will be better explanations no doubt... especially with a ii/V... but they can do that.
#18
Quote by soviet_ska
Yes, actually. Part of the reason the Beatles stayed so fresh is because they tried many different chord progressions. They modulated frequently and always experimented with time and rhythm.


Experimentation is practice, not theory.
#19
Quote by Jehannum
Experimentation is practice, not theory.


Yes, but that doesn't mean they didn't have theoretical ideas that guided their playing. The way they borrow chords and modulate suggests that it all didn't just happen on accident.

Look at the harmonic analysis on this very thread. Assuming it's correct, there's a good use of a secondary dominant to tonicize the C right before the chords descend towards the tonic at the end. They also move from an F to F7 (making the tonic chord a dominant seventh) to tonicize the subdominant, Bb.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#20
Sorry,for my late reply.
I am very confused with the meaning of V-I.
Can someone tell me why the phrase "V-I" is so frequently used.
(I couldn't even do a google search on it because hyphen '-' is ignored by google.so there were no relevant results)

From what I read,I understand it as borrowing from C.THere is a change in the key of the song temporarily which doesn't happen directly,but through a G major which is the V in the C harmonized scale.
Am I right?

@Sean,there isn't a Bb in Harmonized C major.Just when the song switches from F to C major,is there even more borrowing(yet again)?And VIIb?Are you talking about harmonized C major or C minor here?But,there is no VIIb in Cmajor harmonized scale,correct?

And again,can I find some kind of a definition of a V-I?or an explanation?

And one more thing,after reading your posts hard,
I could somehow understand this:
"When there is a key change from one key to another it must happen via a common chord which is common to the harmonized scales of both the keys.Here like Gm belongs to both C minor,and F major(v and ii respectively)".

Am I correct or close?

And please explain what happens in that tempoaray key change.I'm confused between C major and minor.
Thank YOU!
Last edited by nerdinator at Jun 29, 2011,
#21
V-I means V to I that's all. It's movement from V to I. Look up cadences and study them.

Bb is a bVII in C. Write out the chords from C major and C minor keys and you'll see the differences side by side.

I can't open your eyes as to what I'm seeing because theory is a matter of you taking what you know and working with it as you are here. Experience brings observation. Since you are going it alone, the best I can do is tell you keep searching and reading. Cadences, Parallel Keys, Modulation, etc.

All the answers to these questions are going to be found in a thorough study of all these elements.

Good luck.

Best,

Sean