#1
Rest assured. This thread is not about modes, playing modally, or anything like that. What I'm interest in are the names of the modes of this particular scale.


Alright so, long story short: I was messing around and came up with something I liked last week and decided to take a closer look at it and see what scale I was using. Well, I came up with the following.

1 2 3 #4 5 b6 b7


Some of the intervals came from chords and there's nothing saying the chords I were using are in the same key as the rest of the notes I was using, or if I'm using any accidentals, or whatever. Anyway, I have The Guitar Grimoire - Scales and Modes book and tried to match it up just for fun. 120 pages later, I found that it matches the fourth mode of Neapolitan Major -- Lydian Minor (now, before you go crazy on me, I realize I'm not actually playing modally and such... This isn't about that).

BUT WAIT

What the heck is Lydian Minor? The books lists all the intervals for the Neapolitan Major scale and its modes, and it even shows that Lydian Minor has a Major 3rd... Not to mention that the scale itself, Neapolitan Major, has a Minor 3rd.

I'll go ahead and list all the modes and their intervals according to the book in case there is something else I missed that you feel is worth mentioning.

Quote by Neapolitan Major
1 b2 b3 4 5 6 7

Quote by Lydian Augmented #6
1 2 3 #4 #5 #6 7

Quote by Lydian Dominant Augmented
1 2 3 #4 #5 6 b7

Quote by Lydian Minor
1 2 3 #4 5 b6 b7

Quote by Major Locrian
1 2 3 4 b5 b6 b7

Quote by ALT Natural 2
1 2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

Quote by ALT bb3
1 b2 bb3 b4 b5 b6 b7


So, to sum it up, I don't have a clue what's going on here, and I'm genuinely interested to know why this scale and its modes are named the way they are.

Thanks for reading,
toxictaipan
Last edited by toxictaipan at Jun 26, 2011,
#2
honestly this book sounds like complete bullshit if a "minor" scale/mode has a major 3rd and a "major" scale/mode has a minor 3rd and its coming up with this "neapolitan major scale" i've never even heard of. i would ASSUME it has something to do with a neapolitan chord, but it doesn't look like that at all here.
#3
i'm going to call bullshit on this book. at first i thought maybe you mixed some of them up, but your altered (nat.2) and altered (bb3) check out.

gotta tell you, i'm stumped as to what their logic is. maybe just find a more logical name for it and call it that? you're probably better off that way, anyway.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#4
Quote by AeolianWolf
gotta tell you, i'm stumped as to what their logic is. maybe just find a more logical name for it and call it that? you're probably better off that way, anyway.


That's the way I'm leaning, who really cares what name you give them as long as you know their function. In this case their function would always be major/minor scale with accidentals.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#5
Quote by AlanHB
That's the way I'm leaning, who really cares what name you give them as long as you know their function. In this case their function would always be major/minor scale with accidentals.


this.

listen, TS. the issue isn't about something not being modal. it's about someone not understanding tonal theory (which comprises 99.9% of modern music, really). it's not about whether you're playing something in A lydian minor -- it's about the fact that what you're really playing is in A major, using D#, an F, and a G as accidentals.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#6
Oh, right. I know. I was just trying to make it really clear this wasn't about the theory of the modes, just their names.

I did a little more searching on the subject, and I found something interesting. I've read something that suggests that the scale is artificial (meaning that it was not derived from another scale, to the best of my understanding) and is named Lydian Minor because the first half suggests Lydian while the second half suggests Minor. So, it's basically a combination of both. That seems to make some sense, at least it has reasoning. I guess the same logic is being applied to the Neapolitan Major scale, too.

I also found this page which lists the same names for the modes as the book I have. So, it appears the book isn't just using the names for no good reason, but that these are the actual names of the scale and its modes.
Last edited by toxictaipan at Jun 27, 2011,
#7
Quote by toxictaipan
I also found this page which lists the same names for the modes as the book I have. So, it appears the book isn't just using the name for no good reason, but that these are the actual names of the scale and its modes.


Of course, the guy from that website could have just read the same book as you.

Edit: And also from that site http://www.full-score-guitar-lessons.com/guitar-music-theory.html


Modes

In the major scale there are 7 modes. When you play all the notes in a certain scale but start and end on a different note, other than the root, that's a mode. So, in the key of C if you played all the right notes in the C major scale but start on E and end on E then that's the 3rd mode of C.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#8
Quote by AlanHB
Of course, the guy from that website could have just read the same book as you.

That crossed my mind, but it makes me feel better if I believe the information in the book I bought is correct.
#9
Quote by toxictaipan
That crossed my mind, but it makes me feel better if I believe the information in the book I bought is correct.


Yeah if you check out my edit the guy is definitely lead astray in other areas too.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#10
Quote by toxictaipan

Some of the intervals came from chords and there's nothing saying the chords I were using are in the same key as the rest of the notes I was using, or if I'm using any accidentals, or whatever. Anyway, I have The Guitar Grimoire - Scales and Modes book and tried to match it up just for fun. 120 pages later, I found that it matches the fourth mode of Neapolitan Major -- Lydian Minor (now, before you go crazy on me, I realize I'm not actually playing modally and such... This isn't about that).

Interestingly, looking through the Schillinger System of Musical Composition, he lists the "Neapolitan Minor" scale: which in his terminology is m2+2+h where m2 is the upper four notes of the natural minor scale, and h is the upper four notes of the harmonic minor scale. So the notes (starting on C) are C Db Eb F G Ab B C

However, he does not mention the Neapolitan Major. But honestly I can't think of why it would be called the Neapolitan Major, since the "Neapolitan" chord is the bII chord, and if that scale were named after the Neapolitan chord, then that doesn't make sense since you couldn't form that chord using scalar-tones in that scale.

When talking about non-standard scales, Schillinger also presents a standardized system of naming its "modes," which he conceptualizes as scales related through the "process of circular permutations of the pitch units of the original scale." A scale of this type is classified as a "Tdn" derivative scale, where T indicates the scale begins on the root tone of the original scale, d indicates a "displacement" of the root function to a different scale-degree of the original scale, and n is how many scale-degrees are displaced in the 'd' process

Thus, the church modes may be organized in the following way.
Ionian = Major/Td0 (ie, 0 displacement, or the original scale)
Dorian = Major/Td1 (ie, 1 displacement, or on the second scale-degree of the original)
Phrygian = Major/Td2
Lydian = Major/Td3
Mixolydian = Major/Td4
Aolian = Major/Td5
Locrian = Major/Td6

The Tdn system of naming can apply to any scale, even those of more-or-less-than-seven distinct tones in an octave.
Last edited by nmitchell076 at Jun 27, 2011,
#11
Quote by toxictaipan
That crossed my mind, but it makes me feel better if I believe the information in the book I bought is correct.


sorry, man. hope you stole that shit.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#12
It's best not to get caught up with the names of these scales, Messiaen didn't come up with separate names for the 7 modes of limited transposition and their truncations, he just gave them numbers.

You might wonder why a Neapolitan 6th is called what it is. You can research it's extensive use in Naples in the 17th century, or you can accept it for what it is and focus your attention on using it your music.
#13
Quote by griffRG7321
It's best not to get caught up with the names of these scales


Yeah. Those are dumb names for those scales, but it's more important you know how to use them for what you need them for. There was a post on here the other day about the double harmonic scale. I had no idea it was called that; I had derived the exact same scale a fortnight prior and dubbed it 'Phrygian Major'.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#14
Quote by soviet_ska
Yeah. Those are dumb names for those scales, but it's more important you know how to use them for what you need them for. There was a post on here the other day about the double harmonic scale. I had no idea it was called that; I had derived the exact same scale a fortnight prior and dubbed it 'Phrygian Major'.

Double harmonic actually makes sense for that label, since it is constructed from a pair of the tetrachords that define the harmonic minor scale
#15
Quote by nmitchell076
Double harmonic actually makes sense for that label, since it is constructed from a pair of the tetrachords that define the harmonic minor scale


I wasn't trying to diss the double harmonic name, just the ones listed in this thread. Double harmonic is pretty interesting; just a tonic triad and four leading tones.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#16
soviet_ska
I agree that the names of the 7 modes of the Neapolitan major scale seem somewhat strange, but if one wants to examine ALL the so-called DIATONIC scales (consisting of 5 whole-tone intervals and 2 semi-tone intervals), one will find that there are 21 such scales, and to remember these you may group them as:
the 7 modes of the major (or the pure minor) scale,
the 7 modes of the ascending melodic minor scale (which have rather appropriate names, cf. http://www.jazzguitar.be/melodic_minor_modes.html )
and the 7 modes of the Neapolitan major scale.
If one can remember 1) the major, 2) the ascending melodic minor and 3) the Neapolitan major scale, one can thus try play in ALL diatonic scales by choosing different roots in these three scales. However, it would have been nice to have more appropriate names for the modes of the Neapolitan major scale.
#17
The names of these things are inconsequential, and probably don't even exist. If you started the scale on the third you'd just call it the third mode of the scale. There's practically no place where these goofy scales show up as the harmonic basis for music anyway.

These kinds of scales are entirely derived from harmonic context anyway. It's not as if someone sits down and decides to harmonize the Neapolitan scale. If you know your harmony, it's pretty clear that this "scale" is just the collection of notes that might appear in a melody above a Neapolitan 6th chord (which you're unlikely to find very often outside of Romantic era classical music). If you don't know what an Ne6+ (or any 6+) chord is, then that's the more important concept to learn.