#1
So, throughout my relatively short gigging career (about 6 months), pretty much the only amp I've used is an 80 watt Peavey Valveking 1x12 combo. It has served me pretty well thus far, but now I'm finding that my band is playing shows where the VK's one speaker just isn't loud enough. About a month, I bought a new amp head, a 100 watt Fender Showman from the early 80's. This means that I've had to venture into the world of cabinets, something which never concerned me before, what with me playing through a combo. So basically my question is, how much louder are 2x12 and 4x12's than just a single 1x12 speaker? And at what point is a 2x12 not loud enough? I've heard they're decent for indoor shows, but can't quite handle fairly large outdoor shows.
#2
Quote by rokrguy93
So basically my question is, how much louder are 2x12 and 4x12's than just a single 1x12 speaker?


all things held constant? and assuming a speaker's output is linear to the power applied to it? no louder at all, power is distributed evenly across speakers. a 2x12 will be getting just as much power as a 1x12, so in a perfect world the SPL output should be identical.

in the real world, speakers don't respond linearly to power, so it becomes more of a question of what speakers you use and how they react. but the difference will be quite minimal, the cabs should still put out effectively the same SPLs.

a 2x12 will distribute sound better and you will get some perceived volume increase due to this fact, especially if you set it on it's side so that the 'top' speaker will be closer to ear level.

and if you really want to get louder, get higher sensitivity speakers.

Quote by rokrguy93
And at what point is a 2x12 not loud enough?

depends on the speakers really.

Quote by rokrguy93
I've heard they're decent for indoor shows, but can't quite handle fairly large outdoor shows.


my ppc212 handles outdoor event just fine with my JTM45 copy, 50 watt OR50H or 30 watt THD bivalve, but i also have some more serious hardware (sunn 1200S, music man hd130) if i need to be led zep loud. btw, i use weber speakers in my ppc212, an alnico blue dog @100 watts and a ceramic silver bell @ 100 watts.

also, have you tried using amp stands or raising the 1x12 off the ground and closer to ear level? those are cheap ways to make your amp sound louder.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Jun 27, 2011,
#3
It depends on the speakers the cab has and the Head itself. I just got a nice "Egnater" 2x12 with Celestion Elite 80's and its crazy loud. Plus in most gigs amps are mic-ed anyways so most of the time you don't need to go to the max volume of the amp. And of course, tube heads are definitely louder than Solid State.
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#4
Quote by d.c.guitar
And of course, tube heads are definitely louder than Solid State.


that is a half truth (which i do so dislike, obviously), and has to do more with how components react when pushed past their rated power values.

just so happens you can push a tube amp past it's rated power and still sound very usable, while SS amps tend to sound horrible past their rated power. i have also heard certain comments about perceived volume and harmonic content between the 2 devices but have found nothing to back up such claims.

but a SS amp and a tube amp will produce the same SPL's at a given power output (all thing held constant), as defined by the math used to specify the rating.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Jun 27, 2011,
#5
Quote by gumbilicious
all things held constant? and assuming a speaker's output is linear to the power applied to it? no louder at all, power is distributed evenly across speakers. a 2x12 will be getting just as much power as a 1x12, so in a perfect world the SPL output should be identical.


So you're saying that if you compared a head through a 1x12 and 2x12 when turned up to 8, they should be the same volume?

Quote by gumbilicious
also, have you tried using amp stands or raising the 1x12 off the ground and closer to ear level? those are cheap ways to make your amp sound louder.

I have, and have noticed a difference, but it's not enough.
#6
Quote by rokrguy93
So you're saying that if you compared a head through a 1x12 and 2x12 when turned up to 8, they should be the same volume?


I have, and have noticed a difference, but it's not enough.


Yup^

They may vary in sound though. A 2x12 will disperse more air at a wider surface area giving it more low end and oomph. It may give the illusion that it's louder if you stand in front of both of them but that isn't the case.
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MXR 10 Band EQ
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#7
Quote by rokrguy93
So you're saying that if you compared a head through a 1x12 and 2x12 when turned up to 8, they should be the same volume?


all things held constant meaning, same speakers, same relative specs on the cab(s), same head, same settings, same guitars and holding many other factors constant that not mentioned (and not thought off) as well. in other words, an ideal comparison environment. i also mentioned how the speaker reacts to power input, saying a speaker reacts 'linearly' to it's power input is assuming alot; but once again the amount of deviation is usually minimal enough to make this assumption.

and 'volume' gets to be a tricky word as well, because it kinda implies how loud a human perceives a vibration is, which gets to be different than how much air is actually displaced (and how far it is displaced). SPL are actually thoroughly defined without the nastiness of all the perceived volume stuff.

just to be technical about the 'volume' issue, cuz it can be interpreted a few ways and gets thrown around without regard to subject which causes confusion:

acoustical volume can define amplitude, sound pressure or dynamics; but it can also refer to loudness. and so that you know the difference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure

loudness is related directly to sound pressure, but loudness also includes many psychological interpretations of sound (frequency, simple/complex waveforms, harmonic content, etc) and biological limitations of human hearing (auditory hair cells, basilar membrane, etc).

*all this is overkill, but the lack of defining these terms generally leads to cyclic arguments that are pointless because terms are not defined.

Quote by rokrguy93
I have, and have noticed a difference, but it's not enough.


always worth the try though. looks like you came prepared.

i would say you may be able to get another speaker for the valveking, one that is 3 dB higher sensitivity would sound ~1.5 times louder, one 6 dB higher would sound twice as loud. but i can't find the sensitivity specs for the valveking speaker so i don't know if you can find a higher sensitivity speaker.

*btw, sensitivity is the SPL output in dB's when the speaker is driven at 1 watt and the SPL sensor is 1 meter away.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Jun 27, 2011,
#8
you can always mic the valveking.

or the fender.

a 212 should suffice.

in terms of outdoor gigs...you should be mic'd.

before miccing bands ran multiple amps.
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#9
loudness is related directly to sound pressure, but loudness also includes many psychological interpretations of sound (frequency, simple/complex waveforms, harmonic content, etc) and biological limitations of human hearing (auditory hair cells, basilar membrane, etc).



Random question gumbilicious do you have any engineering background? I'm studying electrical engineering and you sound more like an engineering student than a guitar player, which in my experience tends to be the norm with those who are both. Just random curiosity.
#10
Quote by jon.peebles
Random question gumbilicious do you have any engineering background? I'm studying electrical engineering and you sound more like an engineering student than a guitar player, which in my experience tends to be the norm with those who are both. Just random curiosity.


no, my degree is BS in computer science. most of the 'engineering knowledge' comes from recording (i wanted to get better at it), equipment hoarding (i have too much equipment to be ignorant about it), and books i got from min.

thx min!

edit: answering questions on UG has sharpened me up on these topics, you guys ask questions i never even thought of. but i went and found the more in depth, long answers rather than the short imprecise ones that gloss over many key factors that give your better understanding of a problem.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Jun 27, 2011,
#11
Wow, that's really counter intuitive. I always though more speakers=more loud.
#12
well at the end of the day...

100 watt amp into 1 speaker = 100 watt in that speaker.

100 watt amp into 4 speakers = 25 watts into each speaker.

ideally.
Jumping on dat gear sig train.
PRS Hollowbody II / BKP Warpigs
Strandberg OS6T / BKP Aftermath
Strandberg OS7 / Lace Poopsticks
Skervesen Raptor 7FF / BKP Warpigs
Skervesen Raptor 6 NTB / BKP Juggernauts
Hapas Sludge 7 FF / Hapas Leviathan
Anderson Baritom / Motorcity Nuke BKP Sinner Anderson H2+
Warmoth Baritone / BKP Piledriver
Ibanez Rg2120x / BKP Nailbomb

Blackstar ID:Core Beam