#1
Im learning about the conflict between the IRA, the provos, the Brits and the UDA, and while running the risk of asking a foolish question, I was wondering if anybody from Ireland could answer.

Given all this horrible bloodletting, unrest and property destruction; What is it about Northern Ireland that makes Westminster so determined to hang on?

According to one documentary: in 1921, British troops withdrew from the South after losing a guerrilla war with the IRA. They remained in the North, apparently, because the Protestants threatened to "revolt" if they didnt.



As if, after all these years, the threat of protestant dissent held priority over bombing campaigns in Belfast, Derry and mainland England itself.

Discuss.
#2
It's not just Westminster, a lot of the Northern Irish people want to be part of the UK, hence the violence with the people that want to be independant
#3
Quote by Rising

Given all this horrible bloodletting, unrest and property destruction; What is it about Northern Ireland that makes Westminster so determined to hang on?


well, because northern ireland is awesome
#4
As far as im aware the majority of Northern Irish people want to be part of the UK. Whereas a minority want independance and thats where the IRA stems from.
Is it hot in here??

This one time in Dubai.....

#5
Quote by Rising
Im learning about the conflict between the IRA, the provos, the Brits and the UDA, and while running the risk of asking a foolish question, I was wondering if anybody from Ireland could answer.

Given all this horrible bloodletting, unrest and property destruction; What is it about Northern Ireland that makes Westminster so determined to hang on?


How long would the country stay intact if it was seen to cave in to the demands of a terrorist group and basically abandon a specific portion of its' citizens?

In the words of Zack de la Rocha; not long...


Quote by Spoonman69
As far as im aware the majority of Northern Irish people want to be part of the UK. Whereas a minority want independance and thats where the IRA stems from.


The minority is a very, very small one. The IRA are nothing more than a criminal gang and don't represent the opinions of the people of the north, or the republic. They stir hatred and encourage violence to serve their own needs, and no one else's.
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Last edited by munkymanmatt at Jun 27, 2011,
#6
I'm not sure about Westminster but as for the republic's government, we actually wouldn't be able to afford the extra six counties, especially in these times. I believe that if we demanded them back, we MIGHT actually get them, but there would be a lot of needless violence and bloodshed.

Now I'm from the republic and unfortunately I can't say from the proper point of view, but there are some N.Irish UG'ers here so I'll let them answer
#7
Great way to get your homework answered dude.

Ireland keeps asking




'Gwan Gwan Gwan Gwan'

and the UK keep saying



'the lady, is not for turning'
#9
as we are talking historically, religious differences were more pronounced and important at that time

the english tried to "anglicise" ireland by settling protestants in to proseltyse the country, they gained a foothold in the northern counties but the rest of the country remained relatively unaffected and thereby remained more (republican) irish / catholic. as such the english government later "returned" the ROI to it's people but the northern counties were now protestant and wanted to remain linked to the CoE and other protestant institutions

you would benefit from looking up gladstone / parnell, home rule, fenians, the irb, the land league and also the potato famine / blight
#10
Quote by Rising
Im learning about the conflict between the IRA, the provos, the Brits and the UDA, and while running the risk of asking a foolish question, I was wondering if anybody from Ireland could answer.

Given all this horrible bloodletting, unrest and property destruction; What is it about Northern Ireland that makes Westminster so determined to hang on?

According to one documentary: in 1921, British troops withdrew from the South after losing a guerrilla war with the IRA. They remained in the North, apparently, because the Protestants threatened to "revolt" if they didnt.



As if, after all these years, the threat of protestant dissent held priority over bombing campaigns in Belfast, Derry and mainland England itself.

Discuss.



I'll try to be as brief as possible, but this is a complex issue so stuff will get left out.

Firstly, the IRA of the war of independence were a different beast, they were an army protecting the democratically elected Irish government (elected in Britain's own elections) from British suppression. They won not because they were skilled fighters or the British couldn't beat them, but rather because they had the force of public opinion behind them, the British knew that even if they defeated the IRA they would not really win.

But crucially what you're missing here is that after the IRA won in 1921 the British didn't just withdraw, both parties called a ceasefire. Peace negotiations took place, during which a number of compromises were made, including that Ireland would remain part of the Commonwealth and that there would be a boundary commission set up to draw the border between north and south. Eventually the fully independent Irish Republic was won through clever legal manoeuvring.
It is over these two issues that the Irish civil war occurred, half the country thinking we should accept the demands and the other half wanting to keep fighting till we got a full united republic, obviously the former half won (thanks in part to the fact that the IRA could not have kept fighting much longer).

Many assumed that the boundary commission would give Fermanagh and Tyrone, along with Derry City and South Armagh to the republic (they were areas with a nationalist majority), this would have made NI economically unviable and forced it to join the republic. This is what the British negotiators told the Irish party at the treaty negotiations, however it is not what eventually transpired, but at that stage it was decided that there were bigger fish to fry, namely setting up the Free State.


The British Government are not all that keen on holding on the Northern Ireland, for example Winston Churchill, one of the original negotiators of the treaty for the British Side and a huge supporter of the empire, promised to give Northern Ireland to the republic during World War II if we agreed to compromise out neutrality in return. DeValera, the leader of the Irish government at the time (and the man who led the anti-treaty side in the Civil War), refused to this. He refused because he knew that he could not force a million unionists under Irish rule anymore than the British could force 3 million nationalists under their rule.
Northern Ireland currently wants to remain part of the UK, and that's fine with most Irish people, increasingly so in recent years. The IRA played their part well in the War of Independence, and they also played a role in the Civil Rights movement in Northern Ireland, those were its only moments of valour. For the rest of the time it has been misguided but genuine nationalists disappointed at not getting entirely their way in the war of independence, and, especially in recent times, amoral drug dealers who want to play soldier and know nothing of Irish culture or history.


If Northern Ireland wishes to join the republic then the decision should be made democratically, just as the decision of the Irish people to strike out for independence was made democratically. While I by no means agree with much of the UK's tactics in fighting the IRA, at the same time Westminster should not be bullied by force of arms into forcing the people of NI into something the majority don't want.

If the time comes it will not be through the barrel of a gun.
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#11
^^Thanks

EDIT: Holy shit, thanks man. To the guy directly above me.
Last edited by Rising at Jun 27, 2011,
#12
Quote by Ur all $h1t
I'll try to be as brief as possible, but this is a complex issue so stuff will get left out.

Firstly, the IRA of the war of independence were a different beast, they were an army protecting the democratically elected Irish government (elected in Britain's own elections) from British suppression. They won not because they were skilled fighters or the British couldn't beat them, but rather because they had the force of public opinion behind them, the British knew that even if they defeated the IRA they would not really win.

But crucially what you're missing here is that after the IRA won in 1921 the British didn't just withdraw, both parties called a ceasefire. Peace negotiations took place, during which a number of compromises were made, including that Ireland would remain part of the Commonwealth and that there would be a boundary commission set up to draw the border between north and south. Eventually the fully independent Irish Republic was won through clever legal manoeuvring.
It is over these two issues that the Irish civil war occurred, half the country thinking we should accept the demands and the other half wanting to keep fighting till we got a full united republic, obviously the former half won (thanks in part to the fact that the IRA could not have kept fighting much longer).

Many assumed that the boundary commission would give Fermanagh and Tyrone, along with Derry City and South Armagh to the republic (they were areas with a nationalist majority), this would have made NI economically unviable and forced it to join the republic. This is what the British negotiators told the Irish party at the treaty negotiations, however it is not what eventually transpired, but at that stage it was decided that there were bigger fish to fry, namely setting up the Free State.


The British Government are not all that keen on holding on the Northern Ireland, for example Winston Churchill, one of the original negotiators of the treaty for the British Side and a huge supporter of the empire, promised to give Northern Ireland to the republic during World War II if we agreed to compromise out neutrality in return. DeValera, the leader of the Irish government at the time (and the man who led the anti-treaty side in the Civil War), refused to this. He refused because he knew that he could not force a million unionists under Irish rule anymore than the British could force 3 million nationalists under their rule.
Northern Ireland currently wants to remain part of the UK, and that's fine with most Irish people, increasingly so in recent years. The IRA played their part well in the War of Independence, and they also played a role in the Civil Rights movement in Northern Ireland, those were its only moments of valour. For the rest of the time it has been misguided but genuine nationalists disappointed at not getting entirely their way in the war of independence, and, especially in recent times, amoral drug dealers who want to play soldier and know nothing of Irish culture or history.


If Northern Ireland wishes to join the republic then the decision should be made democratically, just as the decision of the Irish people to strike out for independence was made democratically. While I by no means agree with much of the UK's tactics in fighting the IRA, at the same time Westminster should not be bullied by force of arms into forcing the people of NI into something the majority don't want.

If the time comes it will not be through the barrel of a gun.


Thank you very much, sir, for concisely explaining a complicated problem that I had minimal knowledge of. Kudos.
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#13
Basically, it's Celtic - Rangers FC.

Nah, Ur All $hit sort of summed it up, but from one persons point of view.

Bear in mind he's talking for many, many small groups.
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#14
one word... Nuke...
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