I was browsing Reddit and a metal discussion came up; I raged.

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#1
http://www.reddit.com/r/Metal/comments/ibcan/dae_get_instantly_turned_off_upon_finding_out_a/

I was pretty shocked at how "anti-Christian" some of these dudes are, it's ridiculous. I was just wondering if there are any posters in this forum that have similar views. I honestly couldn't give two shits about a bands religious views, and I never thought that it would be that off putting to some people.
R.I.P. Ronnie James Dio. Supplied amazing music to both me and my mother.

He will be missed.
#3
I think atheists and people who for some reason need to attack others' religion are just as big of sheep as the most devout religious people.
#5
Quote by bryceh12321
I think atheists and people who for some reason need to attack others' religion are just as big of sheep as the most devout religious people.


what exactly makes them sheep?
#6
Quote by technicolour
what exactly makes them sheep?

Their lack of a shepherd...
Oh wait.
Quote by synestershadows
Shai Hulud mother****er.
#8
Quote by xevious1
i find it odd how many non-Christians are all about respecting new diverse views, but they are extremely hostile to christian views.

I find it odd how many homosexuals are all about respecting diverse views, but they are extremely hostile to anti-gay views.


No. Sometimes getting in the face of insanity and bigotry is the best weapon. Make them face their ridiculousness.
#9
Quote by xevious1
i find it odd how many non-Christians are all about respecting new diverse views, but they are extremely hostile to christian views.


I prefer to respect diverse views that are rational, or at least well argued for.

Otherwise, you might as well be a furry.
#10
Well, I agree they shouldn't put their religion in their music. However, why is it these same people don't get angry when someone preaches their anti-religious beliefs? Both piss me off equally, and instead of whining about religion or preaching about Jesus, you should make some damn music. And yes, I really am a Mormon.

Take The Melvins for example. What do they sing about? ****ING NOTHING! That's the point. What does Thrash sing about? Violence, war, etc. All mutually agreed upon topics generally. What does Ulver sing about? Nature and all that Jazz.

We don't need someone preaching their beliefs. I don't really care if they do either way, I love the Black Metal band Antestor and I like me some Darkthrone(though they're not like... Quite as BLARGH SATAN KILL GOD as other bands).
#11
you do realize metal is inherently anti-religion?
Naturalism is also heavily anti-judeo/christian, hence why a lot of bands adopt that standpoint, or paganism.
Last edited by technicolour at Jun 28, 2011,
#14
Quote by technicolour
well I guess is black sabbath has one song like that I'll have to retract my statement

Black Sabbath had quite a few religious themed songs, or songs that nodded at religion.

Is a band anti religious for saying they were influenced by Morbid Angel? Or Gorgoroth? No. They are anti-religious because they choose to be that way. That's totally their choice.

Look at it this way. A band who has influences in say Gorgoroth has just as many, if not more influences in Black Sabbath or something. Metal isn't inherently anti-religious. No matter what genre you play.
#16
Quote by technicolour
but when considering the majority of extreme metal bands...

Is all extreme Metal anti-religious? No.
#17
but most of it is
and one could argue that all "true metal" is, but I won't get in to that cause I know D-man hates that shit.
#18
Quote by technicolour
but most of it is
and one could argue that all "true metal" is, but I won't get in to that cause I know D-man hates that shit.

Most of it... Eh, debatable. Not sure if that is necessarily true.

And in regards to "true Metal". The term "trve kvlt metal brv" is stupid when used in any other context than the music. Black Sabbath is "trve metvl" and they weren't anti religious. That is an incredibly stupid thing to say in the first place.
#19
i didn't say "trve metal" or "kvlt metal" I said "true metal." Just because one of the first bands didn't fully establish it doesn't mean it's not there.
#21
Quote by technicolour
i didn't say "trve metal" or "kvlt metal" I said "true metal." Just because one of the first bands didn't fully establish it doesn't mean it's not there.

It's all the same shit. And it's all stupid to be honest. Unless we're literally debating whether a band is Metal or not.

None of the first bands established it. At all.
#23
"true" is more about the lifestyle of the underground metalheads in the early/mid 80's onward, as opposed to what came first.By the time the underground became a real force it had already adopted a predetermined anti-christian stance. It came from the dedication of the early tape traders and metalheads who all ran zines,went to countless gigs and how they lived/ate and shat metal.
Quote by Steve08
Acid probably makes you feel less like a hedonistic raver piece of trash, too.

#24
Quote by bryceh12321
I think atheists and people who for some reason need to attack others' religion are just as big of sheep as the most devout religious people.

You have to understand though that it's not because they're atheists, it's because they're dickheads.
#25
I'm an Atheist and i only have issues with the Abrahamic religions, i respect pretty much everything else, though i find certain sects of Hinduism outdated and not worth continuing on.
Quote by Steve08
Acid probably makes you feel less like a hedonistic raver piece of trash, too.

#26
Quote by Riffmast
I'm an Atheist and i only have issues with the Abrahamic religions, i respect pretty much everything else, though i find certain sects of Hinduism outdated and not worth continuing on.

Yeah, I have issues with basically all religions (especially the Abrahamic ones) but long ago I realised that calling them all idiots isn't going to fix anything. It's pretty frustrating to know that a large percentage of the world have been brainwashed with fear and false promises, but you can't talk them out of it.
#27
I actually find that most of the eastern is very enlightening and on a metaphysical level make allot more sense than the Abrahamic Religion or moral secular ideas. It's interesting the amount of knowledge lost due to Christianity's exploits and more we are discovering that allot of pre christian beliefs and the likes make allot of sense with what we've discovered with science.
Quote by Steve08
Acid probably makes you feel less like a hedonistic raver piece of trash, too.

#28
Sigh, I just came in here to say the following: I am an atheist, I despise the utter absurdity behind the rationalizations for belief in the existence of a God. However, so long as somebody isn't spouting intolerance, and condemning rhetoric, I am okay with that person even if they are religious. Religion does not necessarily imply bad and stupid person, I don't agree with their views, but regardless of how many rebuttals you pose to refute the existence of God, prove to me that one doesn't exist. Can you prove that unicorns don't exist? Can you prove that you are actually standing on a floor right now? Skepticism is a very tricky philosophical problem, and just as easily as you can doubt the existence of God, you can doubt that there is no God. You can show the illogical conclusions and evidence shown by religious people, but you cannot disprove somebody's faith.

"The wish to talk to God is absurd. We cannot talk to one we cannot comprehend — and we cannot comprehend God; we can only believe in Him."

-Immanuel Kant

I understand that metal is very rooted in iconoclasm and sacrilege, and I can enjoy it for what it is; but for some of you to identify as atheist and propose the same type of intolerance and condemning attitude as those you claim to despise, is unsettling to say the least. Keep your mind open, believe what you want to believe; bigotry is fine and dandy in the context of metal's paradigm, because of the raw emotions that are being conveyed; but be careful about how quickly you pass judgments that are most likely superficial and unreflective. Carry on men, sorry for the tangent.
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Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
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#29
Who said that intolerance is why we dislike Christianity?, i dislike it because they worship weakness and human egoism,perpetuating illogical belief systems that have helped to degenerate mankind.For all we know their could be a "God", and their is most definitely something beyond us, but the Abrahamic God is just a weak rationalization, meant more for subservience than enlightenment.
Quote by Steve08
Acid probably makes you feel less like a hedonistic raver piece of trash, too.

#30
Intolerance was just my personal example, my apologizes if that was unclear. I am unfamiliar with most other religions, but any being higher than us makes us subjects of that being in a hierarchical structure of power, because we obey their commands whether it is personal enlightenment or submission. Essentially what I'm trying to say is that any belief and adherence to a being that is higher than you makes you a subject to that particular being's will. Degenerate how? What is weak about Christianity, the fact that they surrender themselves completely to something that they cannot comprehend; if anything I think that is commendable devotion, would you say somebody like Ghandi is weak because he preferred non-violence and complete submission to his ideals? Egoism is arguably inherent in every human action, but if you want to talk about enlightenment, what makes your personal enlightenment anymore valuable and important than social or aggregate enlightenment? I like you Riffmast, and I take your points against Christianity; and I am not saying that you are not allowed to dislike the system, but be a bit more discerning in your judgments.
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
Last edited by The Virtuoso at Jun 29, 2011,
#31
Two things, one to the other guy I was arguing with before. Every Metal band shares a common ancestor with Black Sabbath. Therefore their roots are not satanic. Even if they have blended to be so. And besides, just because a majority are doesn't mean you can judge a group because of said bands.
I don't really care anyway.
Quote by Riffmast
I actually find that most of the eastern is very enlightening and on a metaphysical level make allot more sense than the Abrahamic Religion or moral secular ideas. It's interesting the amount of knowledge lost due to Christianity's exploits and more we are discovering that allot of pre christian beliefs and the likes make allot of sense with what we've discovered with science.

I would have to agree. Although I would like to point out that a lot of the scientific exploration halting was done by Catholics and not Christians.

Meaning traditional Christians. Meaning the ones who follow the same general belief system. So not counting Catholics, Mormons, etc.


And I totally get how some people feel about religion. And I also understand (and often feel the same way) the hatred towards many religious people. I don't use it as a crutch. I use it because although I do want there to be something different and beyond us, I also do it out of fear. But all of my issues I deal with on my own. I don't pray to God to fix my life for me. That's not how the God I worship works.
Last edited by Ironic Maiden at Jun 29, 2011,
#32
Quote by Riffmast
I actually find that most of the eastern is very enlightening and on a metaphysical level make allot more sense than the Abrahamic Religion or moral secular ideas. It's interesting the amount of knowledge lost due to Christianity's exploits and more we are discovering that allot of pre christian beliefs and the likes make allot of sense with what we've discovered with science.

Well, Buddhism definitely promotes though and spiritual growth, etc but I don't think it's strictly a religion, so much as a lifestyle (definitely not the right word for it though.) I don't know a lot about eastern religions.
#33
Quote by Butt Rayge
Well, Buddhism definitely promotes though and spiritual growth, etc but I don't think it's strictly a religion, so much as a lifestyle (definitely not the right word for it though.) I don't know a lot about eastern religions.

It's a bit of religion, a bit of Philosophy, and a bit of a way of life.

I love Buddhism. Which is why I hate being labeled since I follow a lot about many religions. Not just all from one.
#35
I dislike buddhism because of it's anti-materilism, and when I saw materialism, I don't mean possession, I mean matter (just so it's clear).
#36
I feel... as long as people exist the existence or non existence of God will always be blown completely out of proportion. I believe that the only real way to find closer with this is to find peace within yourself and stop criticizing others for what they believe because that is just complete nonsense and it makes absolutely no progress with self enlightenment and inner peace. If you are at peace with yourself then you have no desire to lash out at others for whatever they believe in. So I think that whatever may or may not exist the best thing to do is to find some closer with yourself and just stop being an asshole... its all based on irrational emotions mixed with some ridiculous motive...thats how I look at religion and how society tries to bring people together for one belief..its just not going to work..people are always going to disagree so its useless to make them all believe in something. The individual is the most important thing to focus on..nothing else...

anyways... thats my perspective...and you guys have made excellent points ^

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#37
I think we need religion.

There, I said it. How else are they going to control the masses of dumb morons?

Oh, yeah, right. We just give 'em MTV.
#38
To The Virtuoso

Here is the thing though, Monistic religions represent the higher power not as a being" like a big Jewish man who wants you all to avoid pork", but as a force that is beyond us, with no human characteristics, most pagan practices focus on unity with nature and realizing that we are just a small part within it, giving things like water or certain animals characteristics in order to give advice to us how to adapt to nature rather than try to triumph over it.Because that will lead to our ultimate demise.

Since Christian sentiment has worked it's way into society, we now value equality, appeasement and human egoism over making sustainable decisions and taking initiative to make the world better. The concept of "turning the other cheek" promotes that rather than being willing to take up arms for what we want, we let other trample upon us, because by being subservient will we get a divine reward.
Because Christianity emphasizes that all life is sacred, babies are born and breed who are weak and should of died at birth, this means that rather than the natural order of evolution prevailing(strong traits of the survivors getting passed along), we breed weakness by keeping those who cannot live otherwise by machine, this also has caused overpopulation issues due to Christianity "valuing all life", in ancient Sparta, unfit babies were often drowned in order to stop them from living a life of suffering and spreading more weakness to it's off springs.we should return to something more similar to that if we want a mentally and physically strong society.
The Abrahamic god represents human egoism, because he himself was created in the image of man, and suggest that the earth is hear for humans to do what they wish, the earth is ours to plunder supposedly. This is a key reason, along with the industrial revolution(started by protestant Christians because of the protestant beliefs in work and money), in why the earth is so polluted and people feel that it doesn't matter, because "Jesus loves them, and what they want is more important than what is good for the whole planet".


I could go on and on and on and on.Did i miss anything?

but if you want to talk about enlightenment, what makes your personal enlightenment anymore valuable and important than social or aggregate enlightenment?


I don't see what your getting at with this particular part.

Edit: And no i won't get the collective penises of Darwin,Ragnar Redbeard or Nietzsche out of my mouth any time soon

Edit 2: Ok admittedly the whole"eye for an eye thing" in the old testament is very relevant and there are some small amounts of truth in The Abrahamic religion, but the bad outweighs the good.
Quote by Steve08
Acid probably makes you feel less like a hedonistic raver piece of trash, too.

Last edited by Riffmast at Jun 29, 2011,
#39
Quote by The_Casinator
I think we need religion.

There, I said it. How else are they going to control the masses of dumb morons?

Oh, yeah, right. We just give 'em MTV.


kill them?

It's just a matter of reshaping how people think, and it's a really slow process, it took 2 thousand to get them this far, it'll take 2000 to get em away from it.

Also, I just started rereading the myth of sisyphus today - God/religion still falls victim to absurdism!

On the topic of weak babies/people who shouldn't have survived - if their traits are that detrimental to their health, I don't think they'll be procreating OR if they do, they have a much higher chance of themselves producing an offspring with much more serious genetic mutations (eg premature abortion). I'd say overpopulation is a result of lack of birth control/poverty/other social issues - if you look at most first world countries, the birth rate is actually in slow decline. The only reason the pops continue to grow is because of immigration.
Last edited by technicolour at Jun 29, 2011,
#40
First off, I believe in the God of Abraham but not in any organized religion whether it be Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, or even Eastern religions, which though are further aesthetically from what I personally believe I view on the same level as the others. Honestly, Christianity (without God ironically) has done more bad for the world than good. But I don't want to get into any details about my beliefs right now.

As far as pro-Christian music, most of it is shit, yes. Though some descent bands exist like Mortification, Trouble, and Believer. I think that you would have to be ignorant for an atheist to dismiss a band because their Christian or vice versa.
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