#1
Ok, so I wanted to start recording. None of that straight into computer BS, I want to mic up the instruments. Because nothing sounds as good as a tube amp. But to get that sound I need to turn up my JCM 800 very loud. I know a lot of the pros do it, but I have no idea how they place the mics.

My friends record with mics, but they don't record loud amps, so it's a little easier. My question is: how would I place the mic (or mics) to acheive the sound of the room? Currently the amp is at my Mom's house which has high ceilings, and a huge carpet over her wood floor, and it sounds absolutely beautiful in there. I want to bring my laptop over there when I get some mics and record.
I woke up this morning and I got myself a beer. The future's uncertain and the end is always near.

Quote by BlackIce87
I'm not gonna lie, goin' mobile looks like Sebastian Bach in the eighties.
#2
It's usually easier with two people. One person playing the guitar, the other person monitoring (one of the few times a decent pair of headphones come into play) and moving the mic around. There's really no exact placement; it's usually just your preference. Distance and angle affect the mic. Start out by lining up the mic with one of the cones on the cabinet and then trace around to see what sounds right to you. If it's anything high gain, try to keep the distortion minimal since must of the time, the sound you are looking for will come through. If you are using two mics, try to have one mic specific for the lows-mids and the other for the highs. I guess that's most of the basics there. I'm sure others have different ways of going about this.
#3
If I find time a little later, when I'm at my computer, I'm writing the guitar part of my guide to self-producing an album, but what was said above by lextexrex is a great way to start (listening to the mic as you move it around, I mean).
Hey, look. Sigs are back.
#4
As much as I disagree with a good portion of the first part of OP...get an interface and a mic and do what lextexrex was talking about. That is basically but me and a buddy did to mic amps in the past. I had a lot of success doing that. The main thing is to be patient as it could take time to get the exact your looking for (though sometimes you are just going to happen to drop the mic in the perfect spot). Try to get the best sound without post processing then just tweak tiny things in the EQ after you record.
#5
Quote by Goin' Mobile
Ok, so I wanted to start recording. None of that straight into computer BS, I want to mic up the instruments. Because nothing sounds as good as a tube amp. But to get that sound I need to turn up my JCM 800 very loud. I know a lot of the pros do it, but I have no idea how they place the mics.


Lols, I'm sorry but this just made me laugh.

Actually, a lot of pros do use amp sims (I'm talking across the entire spectrum of music, not just Metal, Rock or Whatever). Hell, even pro guitar players use em live (Steve Vai and John Pretrucci to name a few). Besides, speaking from personal experience, I can make my JCM800 amp sim sound better than your live JCM800 Live Amp

Just gonna point that out
Derpy Derp Derp Herp Derp
#6
Quote by lockwolf
Besides, speaking from personal experience, I can make my JCM800 amp sim sound better than your live JCM800 Live Amp

Just gonna point that out


Yeah that's why Slash, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Aerosmith, Van Halen, etc. have such a crappy sound on their albums. Lol. Have fun trying.

Thanks for the replies guys.
I woke up this morning and I got myself a beer. The future's uncertain and the end is always near.

Quote by BlackIce87
I'm not gonna lie, goin' mobile looks like Sebastian Bach in the eighties.
#7
Quote by Goin' Mobile
Yeah that's why Slash, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Aerosmith, Van Halen, etc. have such a crappy sound on their albums. Lol. Have fun trying.


Yeah, they have real amps

They also have super expensive preamps, compressors, special treated rooms, high end analog consoles, studio engineers and all sorts of other things. If you're expecting the results of any of those bands out of micing an amp, you're going to have to put a lot of work to get that sound in a home studio. In fact, I'd go as far to say that you're wasting your time micing an amp if you're expecting pro studio results similar to those out of a home studio.

Then again, people need to learn from mistakes
Derpy Derp Derp Herp Derp
#8
As much as his signature rings true through his post, lockwolf is right. You're far better off using an amp sim to get your tones as close as possible, because there is just no way you're gonna get that pro studio sound... that's why it's called a pro studio sound.

We're not trying to be mean, just trying to steer you in the right direction and hopefully save you some money along the way.
#9
Hold on a minute guys.

The reason amp sims are as popular today in studios is because time is money. Amp sims are safer and more time efficient and are "good enough" to the average listener who thinks mp3s sound just as good as anything else.

And my personal beef with amp sims...
I have a Peavey Classic 30 (by no means a marshal, but works well for me) and there is no way I can get an amp sim to sound quite like I can get even that low end amp sounding after spending the time to mic it up properly. I can impress all my musically uneducated friends with amp sims, but for me and my ears, it's worth the extra time and effort to get the real deal. Plus, I love playing with microphones.

If Goin' Mobile wants to use a mic, by all means, let him use a mic. If nothing else, he'll learn more about recording and have a better understanding of the whole process.

Now, to Goin Mobile. Do you have any gear yet? Interface? Mics? If you just need placement tips there are articles all over the internet (a quick google brings them up) about different ways to mic an amp. My starting point is always dead center of the best cone pointing directly at it (on axis) less than an inch from the grill. That will give you the brightest most clear tone. Angling the mic or moving it off center take some of the bite off if you need. Moving it further away from the grill gives it more room to breathe and can start letting in more room noise if you want that. It's all about experimentation and finding what works best for you and the sound you want.
#10
Quote by Goin' Mobile
Ok, so I wanted to start recording. None of that straight into computer BS, I want to mic up the instruments. Because nothing sounds as good as a tube amp. But to get that sound I need to turn up my JCM 800 very loud. I know a lot of the pros do it, but I have no idea how they place the mics.

My friends record with mics, but they don't record loud amps, so it's a little easier. My question is: how would I place the mic (or mics) to acheive the sound of the room? Currently the amp is at my Mom's house which has high ceilings, and a huge carpet over her wood floor, and it sounds absolutely beautiful in there. I want to bring my laptop over there when I get some mics and record.


I'd start out with either a SM57 or Sennheiser e609 close miked to the cabinet. Then a good condenser mic picking up the room tone. Play around with location of the room mic.

A little known secret for recording guitar is that a lot of those big guitar sounds that you've come to know and love weren't recorded with high watt 4x12 stacks but on small, low watt, 1x12 combos that were pushed to tonal heaven.
Do you love Alice In Chains and Metallica? How about Tool and Velvet Revolver?...then you need to check out one of the most refreshing new hard rock bands in awhile...-->The Liberty Underground<--
#11
Quote by lockwolf
Yeah, they have real amps

They also have super expensive preamps, compressors, special treated rooms, high end analog consoles, studio engineers and all sorts of other things. If you're expecting the results of any of those bands out of micing an amp, you're going to have to put a lot of work to get that sound in a home studio. In fact, I'd go as far to say that you're wasting your time micing an amp if you're expecting pro studio results similar to those out of a home studio.

Then again, people need to learn from mistakes


1. Super expensive preamps? Nice sure but the difference you would hear between a decent mid-range pre and a high end one would be substantially less than moving the mic 1cm.

2. Compressors? Rarely employed by pros for use on distorted tones as high gain audio tracks are already naturally compressed. Since the OP says he wants to mic an 800 "very loud" the use of a comp is unnecessary and if anything ill-advised.

3. Special treated rooms?



The mic under there recorded the guitar tracks for Exodus' The Atrocity Exhibition.

To the OP, if you want to mic a cab go for it, you absolutely do not need the best studio gear in a well treated room to get tones that can crush anything an amp sim can produce. The only requirement is a decent interface, there's some quality stuff out there for little money nowadays, a decent mic, something like the industry standard SM57, and spending the time to find the speakers sweet spot. I like amp sims but they can be very deceptive. On their own they can sound incredible. The problem is when you put them in a mix, they don't breathe, there's that dreaded 'plastic' quality, the mid frequencies can sound 'stuck' (a constant whistling like noise around 4khz is common) and they can overall sound flat, lifeless and 2d.

Regarding your mic placement question. A good starting point is the mic touching the cloth about an inch or so to the edge of the speaker's dead center. If you can't see the center through the grill you can either use a flash light or just listen through headphones, move the mic around and where it's harshest/brightest is the center. You say the amp sounds great in your room, that's a bonus and so I see no reason why that can't translate to recordings. Good luck.
#12
Thanks so much for the responses guys. This is my first time posting in this section of the forum, and you guys have been the most informative and detailed. It's interesting to hear the pros & cons of both sides, as much as I disagree with lockwolf's first post.

I understand that amp sims can be great and convenient, but I feel like there's something missing from them. I have a couple friends that use amp sims for electric guitar parts in folk songs, and I have friends that mic up their amps and drums and record traditionally. I have friends that make electronic music that use MIDI controllers for their synth sounds, and friends that use actual analog synths. The thing I've noticed is that amp sims sound just a little thin. I think they are lacking that low end "thump" and natural response. But I agree that it is convenient, and maybe if I want to just record some guitar playing demos I will use them.

Here is my opinion, please do not flame me for it but this is how I feel: If everyone starts using amp sims then it starts to take away from the essence of rock and roll. Rock and roll requires dedication and talent. It takes years of practice and hours to record. My friends spend all day testing mic placement and recording their songs. We often say in this community how techno and pop is killing rock and roll. But if we're all using digital computer sounds then we become that much closer to that fabricated mainstream stuff that we want to stay away from. I think amp sims take away some of that soul and hard work that we put into our craft.


I have been playing guitar for 6 years but I have no recording equipment (I know, fail). I have just finished bartending school so hopefully I'll get a job soon and start making enough money to buy some semi-serious equipment. I'm looking into getting a MacBook Pro, an interface, and a good mic. (One of my friends bought a $1,000 mic. Is this necessary?). I have heard a lot about the Shure SM57, I'll check it out. A couple questions:

-Will Garageband sound worse than other more expensive programs? Without mastering, that is. For example, lets say I mic up an acoustic guitar and record it straight out. Will the sound quality be better on Logic Pro or other more expensive programs?
-How much does an interface affect sound?
-How many mics will I need to record my halfstack? One? Two?
-If I'm playing with the volume around 8 (very loud, windows rattle) I'm assuming the mics need to be further away...?


And JonChorba, you are absolutely right. Joe Perry from Aersomith uses smaller Marshalls to get his sound. And when Slash wanted to record Appetite for Destruction with a 100 watt Marshall amp the guys at the studio argued with him and tried to convince him to use a smaller amp. (He says the sound of the amp was priceless and he didn't want to use anything else).

PS: And I'm not expecting to get a sound equivalent to that on Aerosmith or Guns N' Roses records. I just want to get a "pretty darn good" sound.
I woke up this morning and I got myself a beer. The future's uncertain and the end is always near.

Quote by BlackIce87
I'm not gonna lie, goin' mobile looks like Sebastian Bach in the eighties.
Last edited by Goin' Mobile at Jul 8, 2011,
#13
Quote by Goin' Mobile

I understand that amp sims can be great and convenient, but I feel like there's something missing from them.


Me too. I use them, but I find they sound best when combined with "real" mics on "real" amps.

A great recording has a bit of "air" in it. That air space between the amp and the mic. Or that air space between the instruments. "Punch" isn't in the sound. It is in the air between the sounds. Amp sims just lack that air, IMHO. That said, all of the solos in my profile were done through either a modeller or an amp sim. But the rhythm guitar parts were usually a combination of "reals" and sims.

Quote by Goin' Mobile

It takes years of practice and hours to record.


YEEEESSSSS!!!! Too many people expect to be able to make retail ready recordings within 2 weeks of downloading their cracked version of Logic or Cubase. We spend ten years getting to be highly skilled guitarists, but think that the same level of practice and learning don't apply to recording.

Quote by Goin' Mobile

My friends spend all day testing mic placement and recording their songs.


Yes. And the more serious you are about recording, the more time and the more money you will spend on it. Mutt Lange will spend an entire day auditioning combinations of snare drums, mics and preamps. Most mortals will just try a couple of different mics and go, "roll 'em!"

Quote by Goin' Mobile

I'm looking into getting a MacBook Pro,


I'd go with a PC desktop personally? What is your rationale behind wanting a laptop for recording, and for wanting it to be a Mac?

Quote by Goin' Mobile

an interface, and a good mic. (One of my friends bought a $1,000 mic. Is this necessary?).


Different tools for different jobs, as they say. Is a $1000 saw really necessary? For most people, no. For some people, they couldn't do their work without one.

There is a reason why pro gear costs what it does, and it has little to do with the "brand name" attached to it. Any pro studio will have, for instance, a U87. Pretty much anything you record with it sounds like gold... but the mic itself costs about $2500.

Quote by Goin' Mobile

I have heard a lot about the Shure SM57, I'll check it out.


Everyone should have one of those. However, it is not the be-all and end-all that everyone makes them out to be. To further my tool analogy, having an SM57 is akin to having a good screwdriver. Everybody needs one, but you don't use it on every damned project you do.

Quote by Goin' Mobile


-Will Garageband sound worse than other more expensive programs?


Software doesn't sound bad or great. It helps you to manipulate sounds that are already bad or great before they hit the software. I've heard mixed things about Garageband, but have never used it.

I love Cubase. ProTools is great, but having used it a few times, I never once found myself wishing I had it instead of Cubase. I've never used Reaper, but I know a guy on another forum who has worked with the likes of Megadeth, Sheryl Crow and Gin Blossoms who swears by it, and that's good enough for me.

Quote by Goin' Mobile

Without mastering, that is.


There is a popular expression in recording that says "you can't polish a turd." Well... you can, but it winds up just being a shiny turd.

Quote by Goin' Mobile

For example, lets say I mic up an acoustic guitar and record it straight out. Will the sound quality be better on Logic Pro or other more expensive programs?


Generally, no. However, the quality of the plugins you use will affect the end sound quality.

Quote by Goin' Mobile

-How much does an interface affect sound?


Huge. Compare the sound from a TonePort or a Behringer or whatever to something like a Lynx or Apogee or whatever..... and you'll be blown away. Within that are the preamps as well. Compare the preamps in something like a TonePort or a Behringer to something from Neve, SSL, Avalon, and again.... you'll be blown away. Don't get me wrong... the cheaper ones are totally usable. But as I say, there is a reason why pro gear costs what it does.

Quote by Goin' Mobile

-How many mics will I need to record my halfstack? One? Two?


Depends. You know that guy you were talking about who would spend all day getting a guitar miked up? He would probably try one mic AND two mics and see what worked better for that particular track.

Quote by Goin' Mobile

-If I'm playing with the volume around 8 (very loud, windows rattle) I'm assuming the mics need to be further away...?


Not necessarily. I wouldn't drop a prized condensor in front of it, but most dynamic mics can be used to record a fighter jet from 3 paces and still be okay.

The general rule is that, if you want it to sound "in your face" then you put the mic "in the face" of what you want to record. If you want the sound to be "in a room", then put the mic "in the room."

You know that "air" I was talking about? Well, if *everything* is "in your face", then there is no air - or at least not much. If the guitars are going to be "in your face", then something has to be "in the room."

Quote by Goin' Mobile

And JonChorba, you are absolutely right. Joe Perry from Aersomith uses smaller Marshalls to get his sound. And when Slash wanted to record Appetite for Destruction with a 100 watt Marshall amp the guys at the studio argued with him and tried to convince him to use a smaller amp. (He says the sound of the amp was priceless and he didn't want to use anything else).

PS: And I'm not expecting to get a sound equivalent to that on Aerosmith or Guns N' Roses records. I just want to get a "pretty darn good" sound.


A lot of the Zeppelin stuff was with Jimmy Page recording through a little amp.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#14
Quote by FearComplex
1. Super expensive preamps? Nice sure but the difference you would hear between a decent mid-range pre and a high end one would be substantially less than moving the mic 1cm.


And what do you base that on? Have you ever recorded anything through a Neve, SSL, or Avalon channel strip?

Quote by FearComplex

2. Compressors? Rarely employed by pros for use on distorted tones as high gain audio tracks are already naturally compressed. Since the OP says he wants to mic an 800 "very loud" the use of a comp is unnecessary and if anything ill-advised.


While elementary in it's simplicity here, you are not quite correct. Often times, these compressors or limiters are used on things that don't need to be compressed. One of the oldest tricks in the book is to run something through an LA-2A compressor/limiter with the setting on bypass. No compressing/limiting is taking place, but the sound that the unit imparts helps create that "pro studio" sound that people want to hear.

Quote by FearComplex

3. Special treated rooms?

To the OP, if you want to mic a cab go for it, you absolutely do not need the best studio gear in a well treated room to get tones that can crush anything an amp sim can produce.


There are always work-arounds, but do you really think those pro studios are pretty stupid for spending what they do on room-treatments, when all they really need to do is to put a mic under a blanket?

Quote by FearComplex

Regarding your mic placement question. A good starting point is the mic touching the cloth about an inch or so to the edge of the speaker's dead center. If you can't see the center through the grill you can either use a flash light or just listen through headphones, move the mic around and where it's harshest/brightest is the center. You say the amp sounds great in your room, that's a bonus and so I see no reason why that can't translate to recordings. Good luck.


This I agree with. As a *general* rule, consider the following:
-the closer to the center of the cone, the brighter the recording; the closer to the edge of the diaphragm, the "warmer" the recording.
-the more "on axis", the clearer the tone; the more "off axis" the more "character" there is to the tone.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#15
Wow, awesome response axemanchris. Thanks for answering my questions.

The reason I want a laptop is so I can take it to where my amp is and record it. Basically, more mobility. I've talked to people and everyone says I don't need a desktop. Although, there is more memory in a desktop.

I'm not a Mac guy. Never have been. In fact, I'm on a PC right now. But I want a new computer and the Macs come with Garageband. So that's why I was looking into them.
I woke up this morning and I got myself a beer. The future's uncertain and the end is always near.

Quote by BlackIce87
I'm not gonna lie, goin' mobile looks like Sebastian Bach in the eighties.
#16
Not to sound trite, but rather than bring the recording rig to the amp, what about bringing the amp to the recording rig?

That said, I get the whole idea of portability. The problem with laptops, more than anything else, is often drive speed, and overall cost. Most laptops, in the interest of maintaining battery life, often come equipped with 5400 rpm hard drives. You WILL want a 7200 rpm hard drive, unless you want to really up the cost and go with a solid state drive. :-)

And just in general, you will pay more for a similarly spec'ed laptop than you will for a desktop.

For software, as I say, I love Cubase, but it IS pretty expensive. 2-gazillion ProTools users can't all be wrong, either, but you have to buy an interface that is pro-tools compatible. That means either digidesign or M-Audio. That's fine. It's only a limitation as much as it narrows the playing field for what you can buy - not for what you can do.

If cost is an issue, I would try Reaper. The one person I referenced above would be enough for me for credibility.

Consider, though, that most interfaces will come with software. It may or may not suit your purposes, but could/should be a consideration when choosing your interface.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#17
Quote by axemanchris
\
For software, as I say, I love Cubase, but it IS pretty expensive. 2-gazillion ProTools users can't all be wrong, either, but you have to buy an interface that is pro-tools compatible. That means either digidesign or M-Audio. That's fine. It's only a limitation as much as it narrows the playing field for what you can buy - not for what you can do.


Not with ProTools 9.

But as you also said, reaper isn't a bad idea as far as bang for buck goes.
#18
Quote by axemanchris
For software, as I say, I love Cubase, but it IS pretty expensive. 2-gazillion ProTools users can't all be wrong, either, but you have to buy an interface that is pro-tools compatible. That means either digidesign or M-Audio. That's fine. It's only a limitation as much as it narrows the playing field for what you can buy - not for what you can do.


Tell that to the Mackie Onyx I'm running into PT now :p

PT9 is good though you have the $600 price tag before you buy an interface (Or if you're like me and had an Mbox, $250). I wouldn't recommend PT as a starter DAW since everything is specific for it. Its like like Reaper, Cubase, or every other DAW which uses VST plugins which there are 90438520934750257* free ones out there. I have to pay for all my plugins (Yes, I pay for em).

Go with Reaper to get you started.

*I may be a little off on this but still
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#19
Quote by axemanchris
Not to sound trite, but rather than bring the recording rig to the amp, what about bringing the amp to the recording rig?

That said, I get the whole idea of portability. The problem with laptops, more than anything else, is often drive speed, and overall cost. Most laptops, in the interest of maintaining battery life, often come equipped with 5400 rpm hard drives. You WILL want a 7200 rpm hard drive, unless you want to really up the cost and go with a solid state drive. :-)


That is VERY true. I have no problems with recording so long as the HDD I'm using is a 7200+rpm drive or is an SSD, but as you said SSD's are absurdly expensive. You'd have next to zero latency with just a regular $100 1TB WD Caviar Black 7200 rpm HDD or something like it.
Current Gear:
LTD MH-400 with Gotoh GE1996T (EMG 85/60)
PRS SE Custom 24 (Suhr SSH+/SSV)
Ibanez RG3120 Prestige (Dimarzio Titans)
Squier Vintage Modified 70s Jazz V
Audient iD22 interface
Peavey Revalver 4, UAD Friedman BE100/DS40
Adam S3A monitors
Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
#20
Let me simplify this for you. This is what you need.

Interface, best one you can afford.
A mic, Shure SM-57 is a great basic choice, has the most recognizable tone.
XLR cable
A computer than at least has 512 mb ram and some memory. You really don't need much if you have an interface. Preferably, you want a dual or quad core, with at least 4 gb ram.
Mic stand, very very useful.

To find a good mic position, get another guy to help you. But one of you play the guitar while moving the mic around near the speaker, and the other guy is listening to the play back in your DAW, and when you find a good position that gives you a good basic tone, set it up and then start recording.

If you get a SM-57, it's a good idea to low pass the thing at around 10,000 hz to cut some of the frizz it has, alot of people tend to not understand why they sound so frizzy and not smooth, it's those extreme highs that mess with the mids.
#21
Quote by ethan_hanus
Let me simplify this for you. This is what you need.

Interface, best one you can afford.
A mic, Shure SM-57 is a great basic choice, has the most recognizable tone.
XLR cable
A computer than at least has 512 mb ram and some memory. You really don't need much if you have an interface. Preferably, you want a dual or quad core, with at least 4 gb ram.
Mic stand, very very useful.

To find a good mic position, get another guy to help you. But one of you play the guitar while moving the mic around near the speaker, and the other guy is listening to the play back in your DAW, and when you find a good position that gives you a good basic tone, set it up and then start recording.

If you get a SM-57, it's a good idea to low pass the thing at around 10,000 hz to cut some of the frizz it has, alot of people tend to not understand why they sound so frizzy and not smooth, it's those extreme highs that mess with the mids.

Um, no. 512MB could barely run XP, much less memory intensive things like audio production.
Current Gear:
LTD MH-400 with Gotoh GE1996T (EMG 85/60)
PRS SE Custom 24 (Suhr SSH+/SSV)
Ibanez RG3120 Prestige (Dimarzio Titans)
Squier Vintage Modified 70s Jazz V
Audient iD22 interface
Peavey Revalver 4, UAD Friedman BE100/DS40
Adam S3A monitors
Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
#22
Basically, heres a minimum for anything Audio PC wise:

Dual Core Processor (Quad Recommended)
2gb Ram (4+ Highly recommended, especially if you're using a lot of plugins and virtual instruments)
250gb 7200rpm Hard Drive (The more the better. I recorded 7 sessions at 16 tracks and it ate up about 5gb of Hard Drive.)
Separate Graphics Card (Reduces the load on the processor, anything works)
A quiet PC (Nothing messes up a recording like fan hum)

Something like that
Derpy Derp Derp Herp Derp
#23
Quote by oneblackened
Um, no. 512MB could barely run XP, much less memory intensive things like audio production.


I know a few guys on this forum who have produced studio quality songs on computers that have 512 mb ram and are ancient to our standards. Just cause you don't think they can, doesn't mean they can't. It's not like they are going to try and run Pro Tools 10 or whatever designed for Windows 7 on a system running Windows 95 or whatever.

How do you think people produced music back in the day(90's) when 512 mb ram was a ton of ram?
#24
Oh man this thread is so full of fail.
Quote by lockwolf
Lols, I'm sorry but this just made me laugh.

Actually, a lot of pros do use amp sims (I'm talking across the entire spectrum of music, not just Metal, Rock or Whatever). Hell, even pro guitar players use em live (Steve Vai and John Pretrucci to name a few). Besides, speaking from personal experience, I can make my JCM800 amp sim sound better than your live JCM800 Live Amp

Just gonna point that out

John Petrucci does not use amp modeling, he's still using his Mesa amps live. He has an AxeFX for his effect only, stop spewing bullshit. I don't know about Steve Vai, but he has his own signature amp, I doubt he's using amp modeling.

And no you can't make your JCM model sound better than a real JCM. That's absurd. Or maybe you just like digital tones better. Of course not everyone likes the sound of tubes over everything, but that's the sound most people are going after and amp modeling has not yet reached it's full potential.
Quote by lockwolf
Yeah, they have real amps

They also have super expensive preamps, compressors, special treated rooms, high end analog consoles, studio engineers and all sorts of other things. If you're expecting the results of any of those bands out of micing an amp, you're going to have to put a lot of work to get that sound in a home studio. In fact, I'd go as far to say that you're wasting your time micing an amp if you're expecting pro studio results similar to those out of a home studio.

Then again, people need to learn from mistakes

Here, I'll do this to you:

I can make my Mark IV, Whitebox cab, untreated room, and SM58... sound better than your modeling. I have nothing else, no fancy equipment, just an amp and a mic.

Quote by sandyman323
Hold on a minute guys.

The reason amp sims are as popular today in studios is because time is money. Amp sims are safer and more time efficient and are "good enough" to the average listener who thinks mp3s sound just as good as anything else.

And my personal beef with amp sims...
I have a Peavey Classic 30 (by no means a marshal, but works well for me) and there is no way I can get an amp sim to sound quite like I can get even that low end amp sounding after spending the time to mic it up properly. I can impress all my musically uneducated friends with amp sims, but for me and my ears, it's worth the extra time and effort to get the real deal. Plus, I love playing with microphones.

If Goin' Mobile wants to use a mic, by all means, let him use a mic. If nothing else, he'll learn more about recording and have a better understanding of the whole process.

Now, to Goin Mobile. Do you have any gear yet? Interface? Mics? If you just need placement tips there are articles all over the internet (a quick google brings them up) about different ways to mic an amp. My starting point is always dead center of the best cone pointing directly at it (on axis) less than an inch from the grill. That will give you the brightest most clear tone. Angling the mic or moving it off center take some of the bite off if you need. Moving it further away from the grill gives it more room to breathe and can start letting in more room noise if you want that. It's all about experimentation and finding what works best for you and the sound you want.

/THREAD
#25
Quote by lockwolf
Tell that to the Mackie Onyx I'm running into PT now :p


Has Digidesign unlocked it entirely, or are they supporting Mackie products, or have you discovered some sort of workaround?

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#26
Quote by axemanchris
Has Digidesign unlocked it entirely, or are they supporting Mackie products, or have you discovered some sort of workaround?

CT


With Pro Tools 9, they allow anything with ASIO to connect with it. So, you can get whatever interface you feel like if you have PT9. Hell, it even works with ASIO4ALL. Pretty much the only reason I dished up the $250 for my upgrade to 9 was for that. If you really get down to it, its the same as 8, just you can use any interface. I'm happy to be using my buddies Onyx until I have the money to get a Focusrite Scarlet

Though you could buy an unlock so that you could use the Onyx board with PT8 M-Powered.

I love all the hate on amp sims :p
Derpy Derp Derp Herp Derp
#27
Quote by lockwolf

I love all the hate on amp sims :p

I love amp sims. My soundcloud and netmusicians accounts are loaded with clips of amp sims, and I can get some pretty nice tones IMO.

But I like mic'd tube amps better.

edit:
And I'm a regular in the DSP thread
Last edited by Ignite at Jul 10, 2011,
#28
Quote by axemanchris
Not to sound trite, but rather than bring the recording rig to the amp, what about bringing the amp to the recording rig?


Because I don't have room at my apartment for my Marshall... or the walls to block out the sound of it when it's cranked to 8 on volume. So, I leave it at my Mom's house. AND the acoustics are so good at her house. Big house, high ceilings, big open room with wood floors and rugs.

I would much rather have a desktop. Have the whole "workstation" with monitors and everything. And a desktop is more bang for the buck.

So basically, (I'm a computer noob) you can install Logic or any other good recording software on a PC? Or do some require a Mac? And why does everyone who plays music use a Mac?
I woke up this morning and I got myself a beer. The future's uncertain and the end is always near.

Quote by BlackIce87
I'm not gonna lie, goin' mobile looks like Sebastian Bach in the eighties.
#29
Everyone who "performs" live use a Mac just because they are afraid of blue screens and USB dropouts on a show. That's kind of like Apple's guarantee they stamp on it. But I don't think it's worth the $2000 price tag. As for recording, only some do. I use PC to record and prefer it that way. I just prefer the larger software selection + the ability to upgrade and customize it if I ever need to. TBH, it's really just a matter of preference.

As for your DAW compatibility question, Logic and Digital Performer can only be used with a Mac. Most other good ones are for both such as PT, Ableton, Cubase, etc.
#30
Quote by lextexrex
Everyone who "performs" live use a Mac just because they are afraid of blue screens and USB dropouts on a show. That's kind of like Apple's guarantee they stamp on it. But I don't think it's worth the $2000 price tag. As for recording, only some do. I use PC to record and prefer it that way. I just prefer the larger software selection + the ability to upgrade and customize it if I ever need to. TBH, it's really just a matter of preference.

As for your DAW compatibility question, Logic and Digital Performer can only be used with a Mac. Most other good ones are for both such as PT, Ableton, Cubase, etc.


yeah i perform live (obviously not huge shows lol) and have never had a usb dropout or BSOD... then again all the PC does is record and play live lol
#31
Quote by FireHawk
yeah i perform live (obviously not huge shows lol) and have never had a usb dropout or BSOD... then again all the PC does is record and play live lol

Exactly. If thats all you use it for, you shouldn't have any worries with a pc live on stage.
#32
Quote by Goin' Mobile
Because I don't have room at my apartment for my Marshall... or the walls to block out the sound of it when it's cranked to 8 on volume. So, I leave it at my Mom's house. AND the acoustics are so good at her house. Big house, high ceilings, big open room with wood floors and rugs.

I would much rather have a desktop. Have the whole "workstation" with monitors and everything. And a desktop is more bang for the buck.

So basically, (I'm a computer noob) you can install Logic or any other good recording software on a PC? Or do some require a Mac? And why does everyone who plays music use a Mac?


Fair enough....

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#33
What you said used to be true. It was standard practice through the 90's, even into the Millennium, to turn a tube amp up loud as hell and mic it.

That certainly still works very well.

The thing about positioning is that the closer you get to the cone the more it matters, and the less "room" you get. If you back off to about 3 feet (1 meter) then it really doesn't matter where you point the stupid thing. It will sound good.

But you want to be closer to the cabinet for most applications. The closer you are to the cab, the more high frequencies you'll get, but also the less room.

Today the digital technology has improved to the point where I believe it is no longer best practice to simply crank the shit out of a tube amp and mic it. Ten years ago the digital equipment was truly inferior and there was no substitute for "the real thing" so to speak.

The best approach today is to go ahead and record a Direct Input signal, either pre-processed, or clean (it's up to you and how much post-processing you want to do.) It will not hurt you, ever, to record a DI signal.

You can always play that DI signal back through your JCM 800, crank the shit out of it and get that classic 1970's tube sound.

...so you haven't eliminated that option.

I, however, suggest a SMALLER amp. If you like Marshall, then look into one of their practice amps. You'd be better off, I think, recording a 30 or 40-watt 1x8 practice amp with an SM57 (or dynamic of your choice, mine is the Sennheiser 421.)

You can crank THAT sucker, but it will be much quieter. You'll still achieve 95-100, perhaps even 110 dB with that thing, but you won't need to have some punishing, deafening sound level happening to get what you want.

Also, an 8-inch speaker will give you more of the presence that will bring your guitar out in the mix. The 10's and 12's they put in half and full-stack cabinets are warm. They sound good to your ears, but SERIOUSLY lack in the higher frequency range. That's the reason you have to crank the bejeezus out of it to get it to sound right.

The louder you crank it the more even the sound spectrum becomes.

The theory is as follows: if you can crank a SMALLER amp to the upper limits of its electrical/mechanical design then you achieve the same effect - a fairly flat frequency response with a lot of pleasant high-frequency overtones.

The purpose of a JCM-800 is somewhat like the purpose of a cannon. If you are in battle and need to blast the crap out of a tank or destroy a building, then it is your tool of choice.

But what do you actually need?

You need a good, solid pistol. Go into "battle" (the studio) with a Colt .45, ready to bust a musical cap!



I love gun analogies if you haven't noticed.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

Last edited by Bubonic Chronic at Jul 21, 2011,
#34
Quote by Bubonic Chronic
What you said used to be true. It was standard practice through the 90's, even into the Millennium, to turn a tube amp up loud as hell and mic it.

That certainly still works very well.

The thing about positioning is that the closer you get to the cone the more it matters, and the less "room" you get. If you back off to about 3 feet (1 meter) then it really doesn't matter where you point the stupid thing. It will sound good.

But you want to be closer to the cabinet for most applications. The closer you are to the cab, the more high frequencies you'll get, but also the less room.

Today the digital technology has improved to the point where I believe it is no longer best practice to simply crank the shit out of a tube amp and mic it. Ten years ago the digital equipment was truly inferior and there was no substitute for "the real thing" so to speak.

The best approach today is to go ahead and record a Direct Input signal, either pre-processed, or clean (it's up to you and how much post-processing you want to do.) It will not hurt you, ever, to record a DI signal.

You can always play that DI signal back through your JCM 800, crank the shit out of it and get that classic 1970's tube sound.

...so you haven't eliminated that option.

I, however, suggest a SMALLER amp. If you like Marshall, then look into one of their practice amps. You'd be better off, I think, recording a 30 or 40-watt 1x8 practice amp with an SM57 (or dynamic of your choice, mine is the Sennheiser 421.)

You can crank THAT sucker, but it will be much quieter. You'll still achieve 95-100, perhaps even 110 dB with that thing, but you won't need to have some punishing, deafening sound level happening to get what you want.

Also, an 8-inch speaker will give you more of the presence that will bring your guitar out in the mix. The 10's and 12's they put in half and full-stack cabinets are warm. They sound good to your ears, but SERIOUSLY lack in the higher frequency range. That's the reason you have to crank the bejeezus out of it to get it to sound right.

The louder you crank it the more even the sound spectrum becomes.

The theory is as follows: if you can crank a SMALLER amp to the upper limits of its electrical/mechanical design then you achieve the same effect - a fairly flat frequency response with a lot of pleasant high-frequency overtones.

The purpose of a JCM-800 is somewhat like the purpose of a cannon. If you are in battle and need to blast the crap out of a tank or destroy a building, then it is your tool of choice.

But what do you actually need?

You need a good, solid pistol. Go into "battle" (the studio) with a Colt .45, ready to bust a musical cap!



I love gun analogies if you haven't noticed.

You're seriously suggesting people buy a practise amp with an 8" speaker and crank that? Ok...

I think you'll find people crank loud amps to get tube saturation and because it pushes the tubes harder which has many desirable effects on the output of the amp (odd-order harmonics, or is it the other way round, which sound better than the other kind to many people's ears; tube sage rounds off the clipped wave form and gives a warmer and smoothly compressed sound etc.) - none of which are about flat frequency response. And cranking a solid-state will do you no favours, if anything most cheap solid-state amps sound way better when they're at bedroom levels, and the sound of a clipping solid-state power amp is a harsh, brittle one.

Also, the speaker and cabinet interaction plays a huge part on the sound, and a 4x12 will push more air and sound much bigger than a 1x8, even with the exact same signal sent through them.
Hey, look. Sigs are back.
Last edited by DisarmGoliath at Jul 21, 2011,
#35
...cranking a solid-state will do you no favours, if anything most cheap solid-state amps sound way better when they're at bedroom levels , and the sound of a clipping solid-state power amp is a harsh, brittle one.

Also, the speaker and cabinet interaction plays a huge part on the sound, and a 4x12 will push more air and sound much bigger than a 1x8, even with the exact same signal sent through them.

That's a winner right there...although I still prefer DI and amp sim over micing :P