#1
I'm writing an epic symphonic piece as a tribute to one of my favourite movies: lord of the rings, the song is obviously original, but I though of incorporating a small part of the original score written by Shore.


How would the legal and moral issues go with that?
#2
If I were you, I'd just sprinkle some themes from the original score unto your piece, like for example the hobbit/the Shire theme. It's an instantly recognizable theme, that's easy to incorporate or reference, and you wouldn't get in trouble legally (or morally).
#3
Quote by Keth
If I were you, I'd just sprinkle some themes from the original score unto your piece, like for example the hobbit/the Shire theme. It's an instantly recognizable theme, that's easy to incorporate or reference, and you wouldn't get in trouble legally (or morally).



Yeah, I'm incorporating the fellowship theme, maybe this too, if I manage to transcribe it, but I also want this score to show my own abilities of composing, so if I manage to find a suitable spot for it
#4
Quote by Keth
If I were you, I'd just sprinkle some themes from the original score unto your piece, like for example the hobbit/the Shire theme. It's an instantly recognizable theme, that's easy to incorporate or reference, and you wouldn't get in trouble legally (or morally).


Who says you can't get into trouble for quoting themes?
#5
Quote by Keth
If I were you, I'd just sprinkle some themes from the original score unto your piece, like for example the hobbit/the Shire theme. It's an instantly recognizable theme, that's easy to incorporate or reference, and you wouldn't get in trouble legally (or morally).



Well, copying a melody and passing it on as your own actually is breaching the rules of copyright. Especially so when it's something that's integral to the original recording, say like the most recognisable part of a score from a movie trilogy.

We have a copyright sticky in bandleading which should address your question.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#6
Quote by AlanHB
Well, copying a melody and passing it on as your own actually is breaching the rules of copyright. Especially so when it's something that's integral to the original recording, say like the most recognisable part of a score from a movie trilogy.

We have a copyright sticky in bandleading which should address your question.



Well I will not claim the whole score as my original, I will obviously let all know that the "popular" part was intentional.
#9
If it's a short quote and not an extended theme based around it I don't really see what the problem is. Though from the sounds of it you really want to incorporate it into your piece and add your own take on it. If you put a lot of work into it and really want to release your version of it you could always try calling Mr. Shore (or most likely his manager) and tell him you wrote variations on his themes from the LOTR movies and wish to release them giving credit where it is due. Ask about what would be an acceptable amount to pay in royalties. Howard strikes me as a pretty humble guy so there's a possibility he wouldn't charge anything at all. In any case good luck writing it; hope you finish.
#10
Quote by Sóknardalr
If it's a short quote and not an extended theme based around it I don't really see what the problem is. Though from the sounds of it you really want to incorporate it into your piece and add your own take on it. If you put a lot of work into it and really want to release your version of it you could always try calling Mr. Shore (or most likely his manager) and tell him you wrote variations on his themes from the LOTR movies and wish to release them giving credit where it is due. Ask about what would be an acceptable amount to pay in royalties. Howard strikes me as a pretty humble guy so there's a possibility he wouldn't charge anything at all. In any case good luck writing it; hope you finish.


Well I got his manager's email...

Should I adress it to the manager or like "this letter is adressed to Howard Shore"?

Also, I do not plan to make any money at all, just upload to youtube, and some other sites, maybe share with friends.
Last edited by Zeletros at Jul 7, 2011,
#11
"I dont think anyone steals; we all borrow" - B.B. King

"Good composers borrow, great composers steal" - Igor Stravinsky

At the end of the day do what you belive to be right, and whats best for that peice of music. If that means using someone elses work go for it, but you need to be prepaired for the repercusions if you do.

Talking to the manager and getting written permission, would be a great idea... and a good way to cover your arse if someone wanted to claim copywrite infringement against you.
Quote by MetlHed94



Well played, sir, well played.
Last edited by TheMooseKnuckle at Jul 7, 2011,
#12
Quote by TheMooseKnuckle
"I dont think anyone steals; we all borrow" - B.B. King

"Good composers borrow, great composers steal" - Igor Stravinsky

At the end of the day do what you belive to be right, and whats best for that peice of music. If that means using someone elses work go for it, but you need to be prepaired for the repercusions if you do.

Talking to the manager and getting written permission, would be a great idea... and a good way to cover your arse if someone wanted to claim copywrite infringement against you.



Never heard about Igor Stravinsky so I'll just assume he's not a great composer so I shouldn't listen to him. That advice is horrible
#14
Quote by Zeletros
Never heard about Igor Stravinsky so I'll just assume he's not a great composer so I shouldn't listen to him. That advice is horrible



/oldinternetmemesarefunny

Anyway, I would say putting in small quotes is fine, tonnes of people have done that, although possibly not of such a current commercial score... In any case, if you have no intention of selling it or making any money from it, it's doubtful that it'll even come on the radar of anyone that matters. Morally, as I said lots of people quote so I wouldn't have any problem with it, but I guess that's an individual thing. It would also depend on just how much your intending to take and how subtle you intend the reference to be.
#15
Quote by Zeletros
Never heard about Igor Stravinsky so I'll just assume he's not a great composer so I shouldn't listen to him. That advice is horrible






Do yourself a favor and google him... he is considered by many to be the greatest composer of the 20th century.

Hell Time Magazine even included him in their list of the 100 most infulential people of the century. He's listed with guys like Albert Einstein, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and the Pope.

As composer I think he did ok for himself.
Quote by MetlHed94



Well played, sir, well played.
#17
Quote by Jesse Clarkson
I never understood that quote. Perhaps Stravinsky had a ghost writer?


Basically he's saying that it's ok to recycle music. Infact may of the great composers did this. They take what was done before and tweak it to make it their own, or keep it as is and use it note for note.

Same as BB King... If you listen to BB King you'll notice certin phrasings that he took from guys like Muddy Waters or T Bone Walker. He tweaks them just a little bit, but for the most part its the exact same stuff.

Hell here is a quote from Chopin on his death bead "Play Mozart in memory of me."

Another good one is, "Having nothing to do, I am correcting the Paris edition of Bach; not only the engraver's mistakes, but also the mistakes hallowed by those who are supposed to understand Bach (I have no pretensions to understand better, but I do think that sometimes I can guess)."

Any great composer learns from those before him... he keeps what he likes, discards what he doesnt... and adds what he feels.
Quote by MetlHed94



Well played, sir, well played.
#18
I understood the part about borrowing, but not the stealing part. Maybe if he said "good composers steal, great composers borrow". If composers simply mimicked what was before them, we wouldn't even have polyphonic music right now.
#19
That's the point. If you borrow, all you're doing is taking something and using it for a single purpose, in the case of music, often for the same purpose as the original composer. If you steal something, you integrate it into your life and it's now yours to use however you want. To again apply the idea to music, you assimilate whatever technique you're observing into your own style.

It's the idea that you borrow something to use it briefly, you steal something to have it forever.
#20
Quote by Jesse Clarkson
I understood the part about borrowing, but not the stealing part. Maybe if he said "good composers steal, great composers borrow". If composers simply mimicked what was before them, we wouldn't even have polyphonic music right now.


yeah what jazz rock said. if you borrow something, it's not really yours. if you steal it and make it your own, that's better. Pulcinella is entirely made from music of the past and re jigged to make it 20th century. whereas a good composer might borrow something from it form wise etc, he literally took music and made it into something new and exciting, even with the same notes. steal and make your own.
#21
Quote by Jesse Clarkson
I understood the part about borrowing, but not the stealing part. Maybe if he said "good composers steal, great composers borrow". If composers simply mimicked what was before them, we wouldn't even have polyphonic music right now.


Not so much... every musican does this. Everyone learns from those before you. You take what they did, you study them. You steal their techniques, styles, rhythms, phrasings, spacings, dynamics, ect... then after studying many differnt musicans, many diffrent styles, and techniques. You then take the things you like from each and apply them how you best see fit.

In theory you could say that every song is copywriten... because the guy who first developed the chromatic scale could claim your using his notes. The guy who first wrote out the Pentatonic scale could claim that every song that uses his scale is in violation of copywrite infringement, because that scale is his.

Very few things in music are truly original.

For example Muddy Waters and T Bone Walker were two of the more popular early blues guitarists. Chuck Berry and BB King learned to play by stealing their music, and then adding their own style to it to make it their own. They went on to inspire Eric Clapton, Angus Young and Jimi Hendrix... who stole their music "and even Angus Youngs famous duck walk, was stolen" added their own style to it and called it their own. And those guys then went on to inspire god knows how many musicans.

Each generation took what the knowlage from the prior generation... then simply added on to it.

Thats like saying we have to stop studying physics because everything Albert Enistine did was his... only his, and if anyone even thinks about using it or applying it, thats just wrong.

Life doesnt work that way, once you record a song or publish a theory its out there... for anyone in the world to use how ever they see fit. If that wernt the case why are there so many diffrent covers of so many diffrent songs? Diffrent peoples interpretation of the song... which is the driving force behind music, and what keeps it evolving!
Quote by MetlHed94



Well played, sir, well played.
Last edited by TheMooseKnuckle at Jul 7, 2011,
#22
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
That's the point. If you borrow, all you're doing is taking something and using it for a single purpose, in the case of music, often for the same purpose as the original composer. If you steal something, you integrate it into your life and it's now yours to use however you want. To again apply the idea to music, you assimilate whatever technique you're observing into your own style.

It's the idea that you borrow something to use it briefly, you steal something to have it forever.


Well said!
Quote by MetlHed94



Well played, sir, well played.
#23
Makes much more sense now.

Edit: I wasn't suggesting that we shouldn't learn from what came before us. I meant if all composers did was steal, then music would remain stagnant. There's got to be some innovation in there somewhere.
Last edited by Jesse Clarkson at Jul 7, 2011,
#24
Quote by Jesse Clarkson
Makes much more sense now.

Edit: I wasn't suggesting that we shouldn't learn from what came before us. I meant if all composers did was steal, then music would remain stagnant. There's got to be some innovation in there somewhere.



No doubt... the diffrence between the great and the not so great. Is when a guy like BB King "who i consider a great" steals something he re-applies it in a diffrent way. Which is why music is always evolving. Nobody is saying take something note for note and never change it. What we're saying is take what they did, use it how ever the hell you want.

Remember,

All the music ever writen, and all the music that ever will be writen is yours... do with it what you will
Quote by MetlHed94



Well played, sir, well played.
Last edited by TheMooseKnuckle at Jul 7, 2011,
#25
Quote by Zeletros
Never heard about Igor Stravinsky so I'll just assume he's not a great composer so I shouldn't listen to him. That advice is horrible


...i've never heard about you so i'll just assume you're not a great composer.

you've never heard about igor stravinsky? good luck with your "special" piece.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#26
Quote by AeolianWolf
...i've never heard about you so i'll just assume you're not a great composer.

you've never heard about igor stravinsky? good luck with your "special" piece.


I can't write good songs because I didn't hear someone else do it? Or what?

I don't understand
#27
Quote by Zeletros
I can't write good songs because I didn't hear someone else do it? Or what?

I don't understand


just putting what you said in perspective.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.