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#1
I'm looking at buying a new amp and I saw the Bugera 5w but it only has one tube in the PreAmp. Is that what normal tube amps have or is this a 'Hybrid'? also would it still have as good of a tone as a normal tube amp?
#2
It all depends on what components they used and the circuit design. Did it say what class this amp is?

Class A amplifies the entire signal and is less efficient, but sounds better. Low power.
Class B amplifies all positive signal separately from the negative then outputs them through an output transformer. This is a way they get a lot of power from what you have. It usually sounds a bit worse.
#3
Its 100% tube. go try it. your sound ≠ my sound.
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#4
Quote by Fingerboy18
It all depends on what components they used and the circuit design. Did it say what class this amp is?

Class A amplifies the entire signal and is less efficient, but sounds better. Low power.
Class B amplifies all positive signal separately from the negative then outputs them through an output transformer. This is a way they get a lot of power from what you have. It usually sounds a bit worse.

It's a class A http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=bugera+amp&oe=utf-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=15486566933963461634&sa=X&ei=mhsWTsyZO4rPgAfhuOQq&ved=0CGYQ8wIwBQ but is it a real tube amp? It seems weird that they mentioned it is in the preamp.
#5
Quote by Acap0624
Its 100% tube. go try it. your sound ≠ my sound.

I googled it and it is NOT 100% tube it is actually a hybrid, to be 100% it needs a tube powering the speaker too.
#6
^ yeah it's a hybrid

Quote by Fingerboy18

Class A amplifies the entire signal and is less efficient, but sounds better. Low power.
Class B amplifies all positive signal separately from the negative then outputs them through an output transformer. This is a way they get a lot of power from what you have. It usually sounds a bit worse.


wut
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
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#7
Does this "hybrid" factor absolutely matter? I mean I don't want to sound like a dick but have you heard it? If it sounds great to you and does what you want then go for it. I appreciate you have your opinion and choice and fair fist to you, but e.g. I recently got a Blackstar HT1 as a practice amp. Lot of controversy on here about it's hybrid nature. Sounds fantastic though. Love it just as much as my Laney TT50
#8
I know there are some good hybrids but thats not what I want its sortof like digital effects, It will never sound quite like a true tube amp, I know they may not be trying too but thats what I want. I have heard hybrids but the thing I dislike about hybrids is they don't have the natural distortion of a tube amp. I'm not trying to diss hybrids but thats just not what I want.
#10
I just tried to find the schematics to see what is actually going on inside it. It seems that Behringer don't hand them out due to bs IP concerns. For a company that copies everybody that is a bit bizarre. One more reason not to buy Bugera. That's just lame.
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#11
yeah it's a bit like goop in certain "boutique" pedals. I understand that, in principle, it's there to defend IP, but a lot of the time it just plain disguises IP theft (ok, so a lot of the stuff in circuits is in the public domain, so I guess it's not technically IP theft, but it certainly is used to promote the idea that they're doing something unique and esoteric when it's actually just a tubescreamer with a couple of tweaked values).
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
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Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#12
Are you talking about Bugera V5?

It's all tubes dudes (12ax7 & el84)
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#13
Quote by OldRocker
Are you talking about Bugera V5?

It's all tubes dudes (12ax7 & el84)

I want to see a schematic or at least photos of the inside before I'd accept that. The presence of a 12AX7 and an EL84 does not mean there isn't a pile of opamps and/or transistors in there as well.
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#14
Quote by Cathbard
I want to see a schematic or at least photos of the inside before I'd accept that. The presence of a 12AX7 and an EL84 does not mean there isn't a pile of opamps and/or transistors in there as well.

This.
JCM2000's have tubes but they use a lot os SS trickery for gain
#15
Has a EL84 Power tube, and a 12AX7 preamp valve, but we all know that preamp valve does nothing by itself and is just there so they can advertise it as a full tube amp and not a hybrid.

http://www.bugera-amps.com/EN/products/V5.aspx

It prolly has alot of SS trickery going on in the preamp.
#16
Just to play the devil's advocate, the Marshall Silver Jubilee has SS trickery such as diodes in the signal path to create distortion. Does it sound bad? Absolutely not. In fact, it is one of the most sought after Marshalls.
#17
Quote by acdcrocks0323
Just to play the devil's advocate, the Marshall Silver Jubilee has SS trickery such as diodes in the signal path to create distortion. Does it sound bad? Absolutely not. In fact, it is one of the most sought after Marshalls.


TBH I'm not much of a fan of the Jubilees.

The V5 might have an op amp boost in front of the pre amp stages to bump up the gain but I doubt it's full on Blackstar up in there. Still offensive I guess but I wouldn't mind it much. They sound pretty decent.
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#18
Quote by acdcrocks0323
Just to play the devil's advocate, the Marshall Silver Jubilee has SS trickery such as diodes in the signal path to create distortion. Does it sound bad? Absolutely not. In fact, it is one of the most sought after Marshalls.



Diodes do not amplify, and therefore would not take away from the "All tube" meaning.

That being said, I thought someone mentioned once that the V5 is essentially something like a ax84 amp copy. I thought it was something like a P1 with an extra volume control thrown in.

It also mentions the preamp design is from the 60s... anyone think it is most likely a champ or deluxe?
#19
Quote by XgamerGt04
Diodes do not amplify, and therefore would not take away from the "All tube" meaning.

That being said, I thought someone mentioned once that the V5 is essentially something like a ax84 amp copy. I thought it was something like a P1 with an extra volume control thrown in.

It also mentions the preamp design is from the 60s... anyone think it is most likely a champ or deluxe?


You're right. Diode rectification IS better in every way. It's more efficient and quieter. Not to mention, it's instantaneous rather than delayed like a valve diode. Although, that bad filtering can represent a desired tone. I'm a bass player so I need the best regulation I can at all times. No waiting for me.
#20
Quote by acdcrocks0323
Just to play the devil's advocate, the Marshall Silver Jubilee has SS trickery such as diodes in the signal path to create distortion. Does it sound bad? Absolutely not. In fact, it is one of the most sought after Marshalls.



True. My Trace Elliot RAH350SMX has a 12AX7 preamp tube in the preamp, and it's the greatest thing ever. It has a volume knob for dialing the tube in and out of the preamp, so you can drastically hear the difference the tube actually makes in the tone, which is something I think all manufactures of hybrid amps should do.
#21
Quote by darkwolf291
This.
JCM2000's have tubes but they use a lot os SS trickery for gain

For starters - no they don't. They have some SS switching and the TSL has an opamp FX loop buffer but that's it.
And secondly, the presence of valves doesn't negate an amp being a hybrid but is rather a condition of it. It can't be a hybrid without valves, what defines whether it is or not is what exists as well as those valves.
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Last edited by Cathbard at Jul 11, 2011,
#22
Quote by XgamerGt04
Diodes do not amplify, and therefore would not take away from the "All tube" meaning.

That being said, I thought someone mentioned once that the V5 is essentially something like a ax84 amp copy. I thought it was something like a P1 with an extra volume control thrown in.

It also mentions the preamp design is from the 60s... anyone think it is most likely a champ or deluxe?

I was just showing the people mentioning "SS trickery" that diodes in the circuit don't make it a hybrid or a useless amp.
#23
Quote by acdcrocks0323
I was just showing the people mentioning "SS trickery" that diodes in the circuit don't make it a hybrid or a useless amp.

I beg to differ. The definition of hybrid is:
anything derived from heterogeneous sources, or composed of elements of different or incongruous kinds.
In this case those two heterogenous sources are tube and solid state. Are you trying to say that a diode isn't solid state?
I agree that it doesn't necessarily make it a useless amp - but it usually does.

I still want to see a schematic or at least a photo. That's the proof of the pudding, everything else is simply pissing in the wind.
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#24
^ agreed. if you want to get really pedantic, maybe you could claim that something isn't a hybrid/is all-valve if it only has diodes for clipping (fwiw that's not the case with blackstar's ht5, it has op-amp gain stages too and a transistor-based PI), as all the amplification is valve.

in my own personal opinion, however, there shouldn't be any solid state amplification or clipping for it to be called all-valve. ss rectification is fine, as are ss-driven fx loops and reverb (as long as you can take them out of the circuit), and ss-based channel switching (as that's not really in the signal path).

Quote by Fingerboy18
You're right. Diode rectification IS better in every way. It's more efficient and quieter. Not to mention, it's instantaneous rather than delayed like a valve diode. Although, that bad filtering can represent a desired tone. I'm a bass player so I need the best regulation I can at all times. No waiting for me.


he's talking about diode clipping, not rectification.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#25
One can argue that the power supply is not actually part of the amplifier itself any more than the mains side of the outlet is. For that reason I let SS rectification slide.
And not all triode stages have an amplification factor > unity. Diode clipping is amplification anyhoo, it just has a factor less than 1. Only laymen think amplification means the signal gets bigger. In physics deceleration is acceleration, it just has a negative value. Amplification and attenuation are the same thing, one has a factor >1 and the other < 1. That's it!
If it has SS and tube in the amplifier itself it is a hybrid. The definition of the word hybrid stretches back into ancient Greek times, this isn't a new concept just because we are applying it to electronics.
PS: I'm not saying the V5 is bad even if it is actually a hybrid because it aint. But as a technical point I am interested in knowing. I haven't seen the insides of one yet.
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Last edited by Cathbard at Jul 11, 2011,
#26
yeah same here, regarding the rectifier. and for more modern tones you probably want it to be ss.

good point regarding the signal clipping.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#27
The best thing about SS rectification is that you can load in far greater filter capacitors. Tube rectification severely limits you to what you can have.
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#28
ah. i didn't realise that, but i guess that makes sense. the ss ones tend to have a far tighter-feeling power supply, which i'm guessing means a lot more filtering.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#29
Yeah it gave me headaches building the 18W Marshall because the biggest capacitor you can use for the first rung is only 50uF. I ended up with 48 uF but I would have preferred to have a 100uF there at least. I've just ordered some more capacitors to beef up the next rungs - I hate mains hum.
When I build one for myself it's going to have a SS bridge and enough capacitance in the filter to drive a telephone exchange.
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#30
The power supply DOES affect the tone though. Why would it not be important? Purposefully having low filtration introduces a saggy, less present tone. It is desired in vintage amps.
#31
^ well... it affects the tone but it's not in the signal path. maybe it is just pedantry, i dunno. but you're not getting any of the amplification or distortion from the rectifier.

Quote by Cathbard
Yeah it gave me headaches building the 18W Marshall because the biggest capacitor you can use for the first rung is only 50uF. I ended up with 48 uF but I would have preferred to have a 100uF there at least. I've just ordered some more capacitors to beef up the next rungs - I hate mains hum.
When I build one for myself it's going to have a SS bridge and enough capacitance in the filter to drive a telephone exchange.


yeah my 18 watter hums a bit too. I guess that explains it.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#32
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ well... it affects the tone but it's not in the signal path. maybe it is just pedantry, i dunno. but you're not getting any of the amplification or distortion from the rectifier.


yeah my 18 watter hums a bit too. I guess that explains it.



Yep, it's electrically isolated by vacuum.
#33
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ well... it affects the tone but it's not in the signal path. maybe it is just pedantry, i dunno. but you're not getting any of the amplification or distortion from the rectifier.


yeah my 18 watter hums a bit too. I guess that explains it.

You are running stock filter caps yes? Add 16uF to all three of them. That will take you to 48/32/32 which should tame the hum.
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#34
I'll play devil's advocate here a bit.

First, diodes are typically considered passive components because they can only reduce or block voltages. I don't consider them to be amplifying devices, even in clippers, since they are not doing any sort of signal manipulation other than the clipping. With a loose enough definition even a resistive divider is amplification.

Now on to a less understood topic.

So I hear a lot of people say that the power supply isn't part of your signal path, when this is the exact opposite of the truth.

Your guitar input signal goes to the grid of the first triode, and that is it. The signal appearing at the anode is due to the modulation of the current draw. All of this current comes from the power supply.

Now the output stage, all of the signal from the phase inverter and other parts of the amp go to the grids of the output stage. The actual signal comes from the power supply and transformer here. So when you look at it, your power supply IS your signal.

A crap power supply and you get crap sound. They did a project to create a Fender Bassman with no power supply ripple awhile ago at a college in Germany. It sounded nothing like a Fender Bassman.

Sure the plate resistors matter as well as the rest of the circuit, but as I said... shit supply = shit amp.
#35
Well I like to cover my arse. When I describe my Abbey I say it's pure tube apart from the rectifier. If Bollockstar said the HT-5 was pure tube apart from half the preamp, the phase inverter and the rectifier or Marshall said the JCM900 was a valve amp apart from the rectifier and half the preamp I'd have no issue with them. They don't so they are lying. There's no wiggle room there.
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Last edited by Cathbard at Jul 12, 2011,
#36
Alright I'm a little lost. If a diode is SS, is a resistor or capacitor SS? Wouldn't that make every amp ever hybrid or SS if hybrids are two heterogenous sources? Sorry if I sound dumb or misinformed, but I don't know the classifications of electrical components, I suppose.
#37
Well technically I guess so but that's not what is referred to when we say SS. The term didn't come into existence until the diode and then the transistor. There already existed vacuum tube versions of those (the triode being analogous to the transistor) so to distinguish the different technologies the term solid state was invented to describe the fact that there was no vacuum.
So even though resistors are solid, they don't get lumped in under the SS umbrella. That umbrella is for semiconductors.
Got it?


Oh and before when I was talking about the wiggle room for SS rectification I don't think I was clear. Sure the power supply affects the sound (but then so does the quality of the mains supply ) but that's not what I was talking about. It's all about what you define the word amplifier to be. One can draw a block diagram of the amp - preamp, power amp, power supply. You could then draw a box around the preamp and power amp and call that the amp. You could just draw a block diagram with amp and power supply and nobody would bat an eyelid.
So the amp could be everything including the cabinet or it could be just the preamp and power amp. It all depends on your perspective.
However if the stuff is in the preamp and/or the power amp, I see no wiggle room however you cut it.
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Last edited by Cathbard at Jul 13, 2011,
#39
^ yep, pretty much.

and while valve rectifiers can be replaced by solid state, unless you're a real purist (which is fair enough), they're still generally considered all-tube amps.

or maybe it's just that the plexi had an ss recto and it's a well-regarded amp

Quote by Fingerboy18
Yep, it's electrically isolated by vacuum.




Quote by Cathbard
You are running stock filter caps yes? Add 16uF to all three of them. That will take you to 48/32/32 which should tame the hum.


yeah, i assume it's just the stock values, i went with the pre-built version. This is me so i'll likely never get round to doing anything (apart from anything i need to learn to solder competently first ), but if i do, I'll try that

Quote by XgamerGt04
I'll play devil's advocate here a bit.

First, diodes are typically considered passive components because they can only reduce or block voltages. I don't consider them to be amplifying devices, even in clippers, since they are not doing any sort of signal manipulation other than the clipping. With a loose enough definition even a resistive divider is amplification.

Now on to a less understood topic.

So I hear a lot of people say that the power supply isn't part of your signal path, when this is the exact opposite of the truth.

Your guitar input signal goes to the grid of the first triode, and that is it. The signal appearing at the anode is due to the modulation of the current draw. All of this current comes from the power supply.

Now the output stage, all of the signal from the phase inverter and other parts of the amp go to the grids of the output stage. The actual signal comes from the power supply and transformer here. So when you look at it, your power supply IS your signal.

A crap power supply and you get crap sound. They did a project to create a Fender Bassman with no power supply ripple awhile ago at a college in Germany. It sounded nothing like a Fender Bassman.

Sure the plate resistors matter as well as the rest of the circuit, but as I said... shit supply = shit amp.


fair enough.

in my defence, though, I originally referred only to amplifying or clipping parts of the amp (i.e. bits doing amplification or creating distortion/overdrive).

like cath i like to cover my ass too I'm certainly not trying to help peddle half-truths or misinformation, I'm against that.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#40
Quote by Dave_Mc

fair enough.

in my defence, though, I originally referred only to amplifying or clipping parts of the amp (i.e. bits doing amplification or creating distortion/overdrive).

like cath i like to cover my ass too I'm certainly not trying to help peddle half-truths or misinformation, I'm against that.


I was just trying to get someone to try and say otherwise I enjoy when people that don't know what they talk about try to argue.

But really, it doesn't matter how your power gets there as long as you have a nice stable supply. But at the same time you could take the best sounding amp out there, give it a crap power supply, and then the amp is going to suck.
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