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#3
Karma is BS.
Quote by tattyreagh
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#4
Quote by due 07
He certainly shouldn't have been dicking around like that.


I saw part of the officers funeral on tv, he left behind a wife and two kids. Very sad.
"Because hoes don't trust anyone.. especially me."
#6
Quote by Zeletros
I'd say he deserved it


It's hard not to say that. :\
"Because hoes don't trust anyone.. especially me."
#8
Saying "he deserved it" for killing the officer is rather arbitrary. He deserved the consequence of his action -- in this case, the action is killing the officer, so the consequence would be up to the justice system -- not whatever Machiavellian fantasies you folks dream up. Did he deserve to be paralyzed for driving recklessly and unlicensed? That is an entirely different idea.
#9
Quote by due 07
Saying "he deserved it" for killing the officer is rather arbitrary. He deserved the consequence of his action -- in this case, the action is killing the officer, so the consequence would be up to the justice system -- not whatever Machiavellian fantasies you folks dream up. Did he deserve to be paralyzed for driving recklessly and unlicensed? That is an entirely different idea.

That's actually what i meant when i said he 'had it coming to him'. He did have it coming to him by logic , because he was driving recklessly and if you do that for long enough you'd be lucky to not end up seriously hurt. If people like that or not is not the issue, it's just reality, that if you do that you'll end up hurt unless you're very lucky.
#10
Quote by Zoot Allures
That's actually what i meant when i said he 'had it coming to him'. He did have it coming to him by logic , because he was driving recklessly and if you do that for long enough you'd be lucky to not end up seriously hurt. If people like that or not is not the issue, it's just reality, that if you do that you'll end up hurt unless you're very lucky.
I agree he "Had it coming to him" (like you said, it's just reality).

I don't think he "deserved" it, though. They are two very different things.
#11
Quote by due 07
Saying "he deserved it" for killing the officer is rather arbitrary. He deserved the consequence of his action -- in this case, the action is killing the officer, so the consequence would be up to the justice system -- not whatever Machiavellian fantasies you folks dream up. Did he deserve to be paralyzed for driving recklessly and unlicensed? That is an entirely different idea.



If I were very "faithful", I'd say the justice system is not very "just", while the system that universe promotes as justice= karma, is.
#12
Quote by Zeletros
If I were very "faithful", I'd say the justice system is not very "just", while the system that universe promotes as justice= karma, is.

Karma isn't real. The only 'system of justice' if you want to call it that, that the universe promotes is the laws of physics , gravity and things like this / not poking a grizzly bear, etc.

For instance , we are in a world where if you drive a car recklessly then you'll end up in an accident and probably end up hurt. That's the literal 'consequence' of your actions, you can call it justice, you can call it probability too i guess, but that's the way it is.
Last edited by Zoot Allures at Jul 9, 2011,
#13
Quote by Zoot Allures
Karma isn't real.


That's a strong statement for something you have no way of proving.
"Because hoes don't trust anyone.. especially me."
#14
Quote by due 07
I agree he "Had it coming to him" (like you said, it's just reality).

I don't think he "deserved" it, though. They are two very different things.

I don't think the two ideas are that different. We can agree he had it coming; but if you are going to willingly partake in this kind of behaviour, don't you deserve the consequences you may suffer?

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Quote by Scumbag1792
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#15
Quote by FirstDegree
That's a strong statement for something you have no way of proving.


You want him to prove a negative?
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that'd be slightly creepy if i didn't find it so amusing.
#16
Quote by FirstDegree
That's a strong statement for something you have no way of proving.

There is no evidence, it's foolish to believe in things without evidence. This is the only logical way to look at things.

For 'karma' to be real, it would be assuming that the universe or the planet somehow has a moral code, and that it just so happens that what some people have decided is 'moral' is objectively right, even though all that stuff is based only in opinion, and on how best society would be run. Even if you do assume that there is an objective moral code that the universe prefers, you still have no argument when plenty of 'bad' things happen to 'good' people. I'm sure you know of someone who has died of cancer or a heart attack or something whilst plenty of 'bad' people live long happy lives. Things such as the mafia would be a good example, or any organised crime.
#17
Quote by FirstDegree
That's a strong statement for something you have no way of proving.
Karma is scientifically unfalsifiable, the burden of proof isn't on him.

Quote by -xCaMRocKx-
I don't think the two ideas are that different. We can agree he had it coming; but if you are going to willingly partake in this kind of behaviour, don't you deserve the consequences you may suffer?
I thinking of "had it coming" to be more of a nature thing (action -> consequence), whereas "deserve" is more of a moral or ethical thing.

If I jumped into a lake to save a drowning three year-old and I drowned myself, I 'had it coming' (in the most literal sense, I suppose), but I didn't 'deserve it'. If that makes sense.
#19
Its like that guy that fell over the edge catching that ball at the rangers' game.

he had it coming, going that far over the rail. balance etc.

but, he didnt deserve to die/fall.
#20
Quote by Zoot Allures
There is no evidence, it's foolish to believe in things without evidence. This is the only logical way to look at things.

For 'karma' to be real, it would be assuming that the universe or the planet somehow has a moral code, and that it just so happens that what some people have decided is 'moral' is objectively right, even though all that stuff is based only in opinion, and on how best society would be run. Even if you do assume that there is an objective moral code that the universe prefers, you still have no argument when plenty of 'bad' things happen to 'good' people. I'm sure you know of someone who has died of cancer or a heart attack or something whilst plenty of 'bad' people live long happy lives. Things such as the mafia would be a good example, or any organised crime.


There's an awful large chunk of the world's population that believes in things with no real evidence.

I suppose in my experience you can pretty much break people down into two categories. Those who have "faith" and trust in it, and those who don't. I'm likely one of the latter, and it sounds like you are too.
"Because hoes don't trust anyone.. especially me."
#21
Quote by Zoot Allures
There is no evidence, it's foolish to believe in things without evidence. This is the only logical way to look at things.

For 'karma' to be real, it would be assuming that the universe or the planet somehow has a moral code, and that it just so happens that what some people have decided is 'moral' is objectively right, even though all that stuff is based only in opinion, and on how best society would be run. Even if you do assume that there is an objective moral code that the universe prefers, you still have no argument when plenty of 'bad' things happen to 'good' people. I'm sure you know of someone who has died of cancer or a heart attack or something whilst plenty of 'bad' people live long happy lives. Things such as the mafia would be a good example, or any organised crime.


It's also quite ignorant to call every human believing in God a fool.
#22
Quote by due 07
Karma is scientifically unfalsifiable, the burden of proof isn't on him.


I'm inclined to agree with you. And that makes sense, if you look at it from a scientific standpoint. For some people, faith doesn't need to be examined scientifically, it just is.

So, you could say "prove karma exists" or "prove it doesn't". Both are justified.
"Because hoes don't trust anyone.. especially me."
#23
Quote by Zeletros
It's also quite ignorant to call every human believing in God a fool.


Is it? The act is certainly foolish for the vast majority. I'm sure there some circumstances where it might make sense, but it generally doesn't.
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Quote by GoldenRose94

that'd be slightly creepy if i didn't find it so amusing.
#24
Quote by FirstDegree
I'm inclined to agree with you. And that makes sense, if you look at it from a scientific standpoint. For some people, faith doesn't need to be examined scientifically, it just is.

So, you could say "prove karma exists" or "prove it doesn't". Both are justified.
Yeah. Most people who believe in God or karma or what-have-you also believe they have personally witnessed proof to the existence of the aforesaid, but this is never the case. They just witness something and interpret that as proof.

Quote by Zeletros
It's also quite ignorant to call every human believing in God a fool.
It isn't. Assuming by "fool", you mean "a person lacking in judgment or prudence". Someone who willingly has an irrational belief in a vengeful, ruthless deity -- and thus willingly retards their personal autonomy -- can easily be regarded as lacking in judgment or prudence.

Das_Skittles always says that anyone with access to a television or the internet but still believes in God is a *very silly person* (paraphrasing). I'm inclined to agree.
Last edited by due 07 at Jul 9, 2011,
#25
Quote by Zeletros
It's also quite ignorant to call every human believing in God a fool.

The belief in god is foolish, this isn't ignorant it's just reality. People who believe in god generally use logic in every other aspect of their life but refuse to when it comes to god and belief in god (or anything without evidence) is not logical, and is therefore a foolish belief.
#26
Quote by due 07
I thinking of "had it coming" to be more of a nature thing (action -> consequence), whereas "deserve" is more of a moral or ethical thing.

If I jumped into a lake to save a drowning three year-old and I drowned myself, I 'had it coming' (in the most literal sense, I suppose), but I didn't 'deserve it'. If that makes sense.

Yeah, that's fair enough.
Quote by Zeletros
It's also quite ignorant to call every human believing in God a fool.

Oh, here we go.

Why? Would be ignorant to call everyone who believes in a giant space octopus a fool?

DON'T MAKE ME DESTROY YOU!


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Quote by Scumbag1792
My God, this must be the smartest/greatest guy ever.
#27
Quote by due 07
Yeah. Most people who believe in God or karma or what-have-you also believe they have personally witnessed proof to the existence of the aforesaid, but this is never the case. They just witness something and interpret that as proof.


Who are you to say what someone has witnessed? Simply saying "they're wrong" doesn't make scientific arguments any more legitimate..
"Because hoes don't trust anyone.. especially me."
#28
Quote by FirstDegree
I'm inclined to agree with you. And that makes sense, if you look at it from a scientific standpoint. For some people, faith doesn't need to be examined scientifically, it just is.

So, you could say "prove karma exists" or "prove it doesn't". Both are justified.

No they are not, the belief in something that isn't supported by evidence is foolish. The burden of proof is on the one who put foreward the claim, if a claim can't be backed up at all then the claim is also worth ignoring untill evidence for it comes foreward.

Me making the claim'karma isn't real' is backed up by the fact that there is no evidence for it being real and none has come foreward, you on the other hand, need to supply evidence for your belief to back it up to expect any of us to take it seriously.
#29
Quote by FirstDegree
Who are you to say what someone has witnessed? Simply saying "they're wrong" doesn't make scientific arguments any more legitimate..

Because anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

EDIT: To clarify, it's probably more accurate to say anecdotal evidence is not reliable or trustworthy in any way. But anyway, I'm going to stop talking about this, because I don't want to be banned/warned for spamming/derailing a thread.

DON'T MAKE ME DESTROY YOU!


___________________________________________________


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Quote by Scumbag1792
My God, this must be the smartest/greatest guy ever.
Last edited by -xCaMRocKx- at Jul 9, 2011,
#30
Quote by FirstDegree
Who are you to say what someone has witnessed? Simply saying "they're wrong" doesn't make scientific arguments any more legitimate..

Scientific arguments are the only legitimate arguments when dealing with facts about the universe and not fictional stories. Science is interested in dealing with real things and therefore has to critically view any claims.
#31
My name is Earl.
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#32
Whether that in which people believe in exists or not, you cannot deny that their belief has an actual physical and moral impact on their lives.

Therefore, calling a person foolish for his belief IS ignorant because you are unaware of the REAL impact of a being that might not exist.
#33
Quote by Zoot Allures
No they are not, the belief in something that isn't supported by evidence is foolish. The burden of proof is on the one who put foreward the claim, if a claim can't be backed up at all then the claim is also worth ignoring untill evidence for it comes foreward.

Me making the claim'karma isn't real' is backed up by the fact that there is no evidence for it being real and none has come foreward, you on the other hand, need to supply evidence for your belief to back it up to expect any of us to take it seriously.


You're missing the point.

What I'm saying is, to someone who believes in faith, nothing needs to be proven, certainly not by any scientific terms. You may need evidence, but a person of faith generally doesn't. You're used to approaching things in a scientific matter. Someone with faith is saying, "I don't need proof. I have faith."

There's no real way to combine the two. You either have faith, or you have science.
"Because hoes don't trust anyone.. especially me."
#34
Quote by Zeletros
Whether that in which people believe in exists or not, you cannot deny that their belief has an actual physical and moral impact on their lives.

Therefore, calling a person foolish for his belief IS ignorant because you are unaware of the REAL impact of a being that might not exist.



Well that's just silly. If someone believed pokemon (or karma) were real and they lived their lives terrified to death that a Charizard would kill them, they are foolish. It has an actual impact on their lives but that makes it no less ridiculous and no less foolish of a belief.

The impact a belief has has no bearing on the sensibility of the belief itself.
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Quote by GoldenRose94

that'd be slightly creepy if i didn't find it so amusing.
Last edited by abdulalhazred at Jul 9, 2011,
#35
Quote by -xCaMRocKx-
Why? Would be ignorant to call everyone who believes in a giant space octopus a fool?
Yes, because I don't have a thousand year-old book about said space octopus and I don't go learn about said space octopus every Sunday my whole life. Duh.

Quote by Zeletros
Whether that in which people believe in exists or not, you cannot deny that their belief has an actual physical and moral impact on their lives.

Therefore, calling a person foolish for his belief IS ignorant because you are unaware of the REAL impact of a being that might not exist.
This makes no sense, read my last reply to you for sauce.

Quote by FirstDegree
Who are you to say what someone has witnessed? Simply saying "they're wrong" doesn't make scientific arguments any more legitimate..
Camrock already covered this, but it's basically what I was going to say.
#36
Quote by FirstDegree
You're missing the point.

What I'm saying is, to someone who believes in faith, nothing needs to be proven, certainly not by any scientific terms. You may need evidence, but a person of faith generally doesn't. You're used to approaching things in a scientific matter. Someone with faith is saying, "I don't need proof. I have faith."

There's no real way to combine the two. You either have faith, or you have science.

Faith is all well and good when it's about something benign. However what happens in the morning if your faith tells you that you need to go out and kill children in the name of God. It's faith, it's all you need. A person of faith would never stop to examine whether or not they were being tricked by Satan, because they don't need evidence or proof, the feeling of faith is enough.

Of course few will actually go out and kill a bunch of children if such a thing were to happen, most don't really believe on the basis of faith, they believe because of some misinterpreted evidence and because it's easier.
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#37
*bangs head on table*

That's not how Karma bloody works!
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#38
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Faith is all well and good when it's about something benign. However what happens in the morning if your faith tells you that you need to go out and kill children in the name of God. It's faith, it's all you need. A person of faith would never stop to examine whether or not they were being tricked by Satan, because they don't need evidence or proof, the feeling of faith is enough.

Of course few will actually go out and kill a bunch of children if such a thing were to happen, most don't really believe on the basis of faith, they believe because of some misinterpreted evidence and because it's easier.


Hm, I get your point.. but it could go either way I guess.

On the flip side, science tells us some countries are becoming overpopulated, and cannot be supported. It might be reasonable to simply kill off a whole herd of people. Do we do it? No. Because most mix their science with their morals.

I imagine people of faith do the same.
"Because hoes don't trust anyone.. especially me."
#39
Quote by FirstDegree
Hm, I get your point.. but it could go either way I guess.

On the flip side, science tells us some countries are becoming overpopulated, and cannot be supported. It might be reasonable to simply kill off a whole herd of people. Do we do it? No. Because most mix their science with their morals.

I imagine people of faith do the same.


Science doesn't tell us to do things.
Science would tell us of the overpopulation.
People decide what to do from there.
Science is descriptive and/or predictive.
Whether it is reasonable or not to kill off a bunch of people is...a really stupid point. Who would argue for that? Not scientists generally. You can be sane without sacrificing morals.
(This is pretty much the eugenics argument creationists use against evolution)
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Quote by GoldenRose94

that'd be slightly creepy if i didn't find it so amusing.
Last edited by abdulalhazred at Jul 9, 2011,
#40
Quote by FirstDegree
Hm, I get your point.. but it could go either way I guess.

On the flip side, science tells us some countries are becoming overpopulated, and cannot be supported. It might be reasonable to simply kill off a whole herd of people. Do we do it? No. Because most mix their science with their morals.

I imagine people of faith do the same.
Viewing faith and science as opposites is the problem. It just shows that, with science, you say "Oh, this is a fact and it's proven. I accept that." Whereas with faith, you generally say "Well, despite the fact that this isn't proven/is irrational/contradicts science, I'm gonna believe this. Why? Well, that's just how I roll."
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