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#1
Alright I'm very new to this so don't flag me down. Alright I wrote a Riff and after examining it I figured out the notes in it where D A Db G E C B F#. I declared it was written in D Mixoloydian because of the flatted 7th step. But I realize it could be G Major as well. So my question is: is it In d Mixoloydian or g major. I no the difference between the two is the note they start on. Please help me
#2
It depends where it resolves to. Are there chords in the song too? Does it feel like it ends on the D or the G?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#4
Well, you have both a flatted 7th and a major 7th here, so I'm not sure it really fits into any scale without calling some notes accidentals. But the easiest way (don't know if there's a more proper way to determine or not) is to see what note the riff "wants" to end on. I doubted it would want to end in G but when I play it (granted I don't know the timing or what octaves and what not you're playing everything in) it actually seems to want to end on G.

And, Alpacino, there is a G.
#5
Good job TS, you've gathered all of the music theory propellerheads in one location to duke it out
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#6
Quote by swordsofplague
Good job TS, you've gathered all of the music theory propellerheads in one location to duke it out


*sits and watches*
#7
Alright well I looked it over an it actually sounds like it wants to end on an A I determined the Db must be an accidental and them there is a flatted 3rd and 7th making it in A Dorian does that sound right?
#9
Quote by SilverSpurs616
*sits and watches*

Gig Rig:

Schecter Hellraiser V-1
Crate BV120H
B-52 LS 4x12 cabinet
BBE Rackmount Sonic Max
Boss ME-50 Pedalboard
Digital Reference 2505 Wireless

I don't like BTBAM. Sue Me.

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My Solo Project
#10
Quote by SilverSpurs616
May I ask- WHY do you assume it must be modal?


Oh god, do not start this shit. It is perfectly fine to use the name of a mode as a scale. If I write a riff with no accidentals that resolves to E there's no reason I shouldn't say the riff is in E phrygian. This does not imply the song is modal.

EDIT: OP, any riff in a diatonic scale technically "fits" into all 7 modes. If you can't decide which one is right, it doesn't reeeaaally matter because you'll be soloing with the same notes either way.
Last edited by Macabre_Turtle at Jul 9, 2011,
#11
Well because all the notes add up to g major and it doesn't sound like it wants to end on a g it wants to and on A and it then fits into a Dorian and when I play the a Dorian scale over it it sound right. And the nice thing is the a Dorian fits into the minor pent so I can just solo with a minor pent
#12
Quote by jedke
Well because all the notes add up to g major and it doesn't sound like it wants to end on a g it wants to and on A and it then fits into a Dorian and when I play the a Dorian scale over it it sound right. And the nice thing is the a Dorian fits into the minor pent so I can just solo with a minor pent


All three scales that you've mentioned (G ionian, A dorian, D mixolydian) have the same notes, so they're ALL going to sound right, as well as E aeolian, F# locrian, B phrygian, and C lydian. Also, since all diatonic riffs technically fit inside of any of those scales no matter what it resolves to you will always be able to use a minor pentatonic. For example, no matter what your riff resolves to E minor pent and A minor pent will both work.
#13
Ok thanks it's just it sounds like it wants to end on A does that make it I'm a Dorian?
#14
Quote by jedke
Ok thanks it's just it sounds like it wants to end on A does that make it I'm a Dorian?


Well, it's hard for us to interpret that accidental note without actually hearing the riff, but it would appear so. But so certain people in this forum don't get picky on you, make sure you call it a scale and not a mode or they'll just complain that nobody knows what modal music is.


EDIT: One last thing. When you play an accidental during the riff or progression, be sure the lead/solo/whatever doesn't play the natural note over it! And by that I mean, since you determined that Db is the accidental, be sure not to play a D over it.

REEDIT: You should be calling the Db a C#. You name the notes in diatonic scales as either sharps only or flats only, and you already have a F#. So when you play that C#, a D note on top is fine, ignore play a C note instead.
Last edited by Macabre_Turtle at Jul 9, 2011,
#15
Is it entirely necessary to bring modes into this? I don't mean to come across as insulting, but a large number of guitarists have at least a partially incorrect knowledge of modes, if not entirely so (which is why I've kept my distance). In my humble opinion, and not knowing the tension of the progression, you could very well be in A major with a C accidental or A ascending melodic minor with a Db accidental.

Granted, I'm not as well versed in theory as many of the others in this thread/forum, but a tonal riff seems much more likely than a modal one.

EDIT: Damn it Macabre_Turtle. You got me.
Quote by SonOfPest
Its the Lydian mode; formed in Eastern Arabia when the Persians invaded England.


Quote by Blind In 1 Ear
try the sexolydian scale.
Last edited by jwd724 at Jul 9, 2011,
#16
Quote by jwd724
Is it entirely necessary to bring modes into this? I don't mean to come across as insulting, but a large number of guitarists have at least a partially incorrect knowledge of modes, if not entirely so (which is why I've kept my distance). In my humble opinion, and not knowing the tension of the progression, you could very well be in A major with a C accidental or A ascending melodic minor with a Db accidental.

Granted, I'm not as well versed in theory as many of the others in this thread/forum, but a tonal riff seems much more likely than a modal one.


Well, this whole forum here seems to think nobody has written a modal song at all ever since jazz was popular or maybe even early, so rather than throwing the entire concept out the window, I find it very appropriate to use mode names to title scales. If I write a riff that uses A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, and it wants to resolve to E, and never uses an F# then I'm calling it E Phrygian, and for anybody to call it wrong is just being picky really.
#18
If it resolves to the A, the most likely answer is that you're using the A minor scale with accidentals, as there is a minor 3rd and 7th present, and not all notes are diatonic to A minor.

Edit: As for modes, they aren't relevant to this thread. We could have the same argument over again, but it's just easier to look at one of the other threads where the modes argument is happening and join in there.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#19
Quote by AlanHB
If it resolves to the A, the most likely answer is that you're using the A minor scale with accidentals, as there is a minor 3rd and 7th present, and not all notes are diatonic to A minor.

Edit: As for modes, they aren't relevant to this thread. We could have the same argument over again, but it's just easier to look at one of the other threads where the modes argument is happening and join in there.


Thank goodness for that
#20
Quote by AlanHB
If it resolves to the A, the most likely answer is that you're using the A minor scale with accidentals, as there is a minor 3rd and 7th present, and not all notes are diatonic to A minor.

Edit: As for modes, they aren't relevant to this thread. We could have the same argument over again, but it's just easier to look at one of the other threads where the modes argument is happening and join in there.

Seeing as the thread revolves around it being in the key of G... And he magically wrote a riff resolving to the A... then he, in effect, made a Dorian riff... Not an "A minor scale with accidentals".

What would be interesting is to know if that C# is used as a passing note or is stressed.
#21
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
If I write a riff that uses A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, and it wants to resolve to E, and never uses an F# then I'm calling it E Phrygian, and for anybody to call it wrong is just being picky really.

they're being accurate. modality and tonality function differently, thats why we're so picky about modes in here. generally speaking we aim for legitimate accuracy, not "it's close enough" if we just smiled and nodded to everything anyone said then we it would be difficult to take any information seriously. if people ask the question, they're going to get an answer. the issue it seems is that most people don't like the answer which is usually "its not modal"
#22
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
Well, this whole forum here seems to think nobody has written a modal song at all ever since jazz was popular or maybe even early, so rather than throwing the entire concept out the window, I find it very appropriate to use mode names to title scales. If I write a riff that uses A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, and it wants to resolve to E, and never uses an F# then I'm calling it E Phrygian, and for anybody to call it wrong is just being picky really.



Well... post one then.

You're being very defensive about the idea that we want to term things correctly, not because of some religious zeal, but for understanding purposes. You can name your scale Charley, for all I care, but I'm never going to sit here and watch a guy perpetuate their ignorance so that someone else reading this topic may end up believing it as well. If I were to err, I'd rather err on the side that no one knows what they are talking about, rather than believe that people understand the nuances of this idea. Perhaps you understand the nuances of the idea. If so props.

Use mode names to title your scales, but please, post up your modal compositions while you are at it. I've made that challenge for at least 7-8 people to do so, and not one has actually shown up and walked the walk. I invite you to post up and show your understanding of the idea in practice, so that you can be credited with knowing what you are talking about.

It's not picky, it's acknowledging the massive amount of misinformation that's out there and wanting to do our part to at the very least help someone understand what things are or what they are not, functionally speaking. Maybe you do not teach, maybe you do. I teach, so my passion is to do my part not to let others be misled by irresponsible explanations. The person who debates me can do so all they want, I'm not here to correct them.

I'm here to help those who don't know any better and who may accept a flawed idea unchallenged.

I'm not attacking you, I'm just posting the other side of the coin here. It's not about being Nazis, its about helping people wade through the misinformation here. Been doing it for 3000+ posts and counting, and from where I stand, it's not bound to change when a relatively new face comes in and takes exception to it.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jul 10, 2011,
#23
Quote by evolucian
Seeing as the thread revolves around it being in the key of G... And he magically wrote a riff resolving to the A... then he, in effect, made a Dorian riff... Not an "A minor scale with accidentals".


This.

Quote by z4twenny
they're being accurate. modality and tonality function differently, thats why we're so picky about modes in here. generally speaking we aim for legitimate accuracy, not "it's close enough" if we just smiled and nodded to everything anyone said then we it would be difficult to take any information seriously. if people ask the question, they're going to get an answer. the issue it seems is that most people don't like the answer which is usually "its not modal"


Again, I could easily write an entire song using A, B, C, D, E, F, G, where every chord or riff resolves to E and there is never an F#, only an F. Why would I call that "E minor with a flatted 2nd" instead of "E Phrygian." I really don't need to be claiming to write modal music in order to use a scale consisting of 1, 2b, 3b, 4, 5, 6b, 7b. That's not me saying "close enough." That's me saying "This riff/progression has a flat 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th, which forms Phrygian. Because it does.

Quote by Sean0913
Well... post one then.

You're being very defensive about the idea that we want to term things correctly, not because of some religious zeal, but for understanding purposes. You can name your scale Charley, for all I care, but I'm never going to sit here and watch a guy perpetuate their ignorance so that someone else reading this topic may end up believing it as well. If I were to err, I'd rather err on the side that no one knows what they are talking about, rather than believe that people understand the nuances of this idea. Perhaps you understand the nuances of the idea. If so props.

Use mode names to title your scales, but please, post up your modal compositions while you are at it. I've made that challenge for at least 7-8 people to do so, and not one has actually shown up and walked the walk. I invite you to post up and show your understanding of the idea in practice, so that you can be credited with knowing what you are talking about.


To the first paragraph, same as above ^

To the second paragraph. I do not write modal compositions and I do not claim to. Not all scales are modes, but modes are indeed scales, and writing tonal music does not make E Phrygian not E Phrygian. It just doesn't.

As an example. This song...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N3N1MlvVc4
Has two chord progressions. One being Fm, Bb, Fm, Bb, and the other being Fm, Ab, Eb, Bb. Both resolves to Fm. There are plenty of major sixths (D), and never a minor sixth (Db). Why should this not be called F Dorian? Being tonal doesn't change the fact that the intervals are indeed, of the Dorian mode (scale.)
#24
Quote by Macabre_Turtle



Again, I could easily write an entire song using A, B, C, D, E, F, G, where every chord or riff resolves to E and there is never an F#, only an F. Why would I call that "E minor with a flatted 2nd" instead of "E Phrygian." I really don't need to be claiming to write modal music in order to use a scale consisting of 1, 2b, 3b, 4, 5, 6b, 7b. That's not me saying "close enough." That's me saying "This riff/progression has a flat 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th, which forms Phrygian. Because it does.


you're most likely playing in a minor key with a flattened second, not modally. it appears that you don't know the difference and that's ok. but saying they're the same thing is ignorance.... or an unwillingness to learn.... or it could be a host of other things. but like sean said, we don't just smile and thumbs up misinformation around here.
Last edited by z4twenny at Jul 10, 2011,
#25
just play the bebop scale over it! the maj 7 is a passing tone
just goes 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 8

You could also play Db lydian dominate scale over it which is the tritone sub.

dont get too hung up on modes, just play what feels right.
#26
Quote by z4twenny
i'm with whoever said do it. really though, you're most likely playing in a minor key with a flattened second, not modally. it appears that you don't know the difference and that's ok. but saying they're the same thing is ignorance.


I never said anything about me writing modal music. Only writing music that uses a mode. There's a difference between those two things. You are implying that outside of modal music there is no such thing as any scale whose intervals match that of any mode, because it's actually a different scale and you're playing some accidentals. That sounds like ignorance to me.
I can describe something with the intervals, 1, 2, 3b, 4, 5, 6b, 7 as being harmonic minor instead of being "minor with a raised 7th." How does that practice instantly become wrong because the intervals happen to be a mode?

EDIT: In response to your edit, I do not have an "unwillingness to learn." I'm asking everybody to explain how anything I'm saying is wrong. "Because it's not modal" doesn't explain anything. E Phrygian is still E Phrygian, A Dorian is still A Dorian, X Tone X Mode is still X Tone X Mode, whether you are writing modal music or not. If there was another list of names to describe these same sets of intervals out side of modal music (besides major and minor) I would use them, but there's not.
Last edited by Macabre_Turtle at Jul 10, 2011,
#27
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
I never said anything about me writing modal music. Only writing music that uses a mode. There's a difference between those two things. You are implying that outside of modal music there is no such thing as any scale whose intervals match that of any mode, because it's actually a different scale and you're playing some accidentals. That sounds like ignorance to me.
I can describe something with the intervals, 1, 2, 3b, 4, 5, 6b, 7 as being harmonic minor instead of being "minor with a raised 7th." How does that practice instantly become wrong because the intervals happen to be a mode?

harmonic minor isn't a mode. its the minor scale with a natural 7th.

i don't know any easier way to say this, using EFGABCD non modally makes it tonal, if it's tonal then it's going to be minor key with a flattened second.

you can use whatever term you want to describe it, but the term is inaccurate in this case. just using EFGABCD doesn't make a piece modal.
#28
Quote by z4twenny
harmonic minor isn't a mode. its the minor scale with a natural 7th.


This is obvious. The point was why are some sets of intervals allowed to be scales, but if those intervals happen to also be a mode then you can't call it a scale anymore. Not one bit of sense does that make.

Quote by z4twenny

i don't know any easier way to say this, using EFGABCD non modally makes it tonal, if it's tonal then it's going to be minor key with a flattened second.


Same as above.

Quote by z4twenny
you can use whatever term you want to describe it, but the term is inaccurate in this case. just using EFGABCD doesn't make a piece modal.


Give me another term then. Give me another term for each set of intervals that happen to form modes that can be used in tonal music. And not just calling it a minor or major scale with some intervals being raised or lowered. That's BS, because like I said, just because those intervals happen to also form modes and not just any other scale such as Harmonic minor or Pentatonic or so forth doesn't magically make it not a scale. You're trying to make tonal music and modal music two different sciences (for lack of a better word) because obviously they are, but letting one change the rules of another does nothing to help separate them.
#29
z4twenny is dead on.

Please explain the difference between writing modal music and writing music that uses a mode? It sounds like double talk.

I'd love to hear you take your own claim on and resolve everything to E. You'd be the first that rises to the challenge.

"Again, I could easily write an entire song using A, B, C, D, E, F, G, where every chord or riff resolves to E and there is never an F#, only an F."

Do that please...show us where we are missing your point. Cause I'm missing it and I do this for a living. Show me how this neither resolves to Am or C major. Use any chords you like

You can use whatever you like, the pitch equivalent of E Phrygian, if you like, but in context it's NOT phrygian. That's the gist of it.

Call that scale Barbara and make it the b2 b3 b6 b7 but functionally....it's a minor scale with accidentals, and not a mode, not in that context, not close. Looks like a mode sounds like a mode, doesn't function as a mode, its a minor scale with accidentals, functionally.

Context is important so people don't delude themselves. Its like the time one guy said he loved playing in Mixolydian starting on the A. I advised him he was only playing in minor - hed been thinking for years the he was in Mixo.

To sum up:

Looks like a mode? Yes

Pitch equivalent to a mode? Yes

Functions as a mode? No

Is a mode? No

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jul 10, 2011,
#30
In Mad World, the song I posted. It clearly uses the intervals 1, 2, 3b, 4, 5, 6, 7b. Dorian. Now if it were aaany other set of intervals that didn't just so happen to match a mode, then you would allow it to be named, but because it happens to match a mode it has to instead be describe as a minor scale with some accidentals. This makes no sense, and it makes the concepts of modal music interfere with those of tonal music, which doesn't at all help keep the two as separate things.

EDIT: So, Sean, you would say that Mad World is actually F minor but with the 6ths being raised to natural? As a regular scale, there is no such term for this. You say I can use whatever term I want, but there would be another term for this besides Dorian if it wasn't appropriate to call it Dorian.

REEDIT: This dictionary sure seems to think modes are also scales.
World English Dictionary
mode (məʊd) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— n
3. music
a. any of the various scales of notes within one octave, esp any of the twelve natural diatonic scales taken in ascending order used in plainsong, folk song, and art music until 1600
Last edited by Macabre_Turtle at Jul 10, 2011,
#31
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
This is obvious. The point was why are some sets of intervals allowed to be scales, but if those intervals happen to also be a mode then you can't call it a scale anymore. Not one bit of sense does that make.

you'll need to learn about modal functionality for it to make sense, theres a method to the madness. obviously scales are used in both tonal and modal music, i don't ever recall saying they weren't but the big difference is in harmonic resolution

Quote by Macabre_Turtle

Give me another term then. Give me another term for each set of intervals that happen to form modes that can be used in tonal music. And not just calling it a minor or major scale with some intervals being raised or lowered. That's BS, because like I said, just because those intervals happen to also form modes and not just any other scale such as Harmonic minor or Pentatonic or so forth doesn't magically make it not a scale. You're trying to make tonal music and modal music two different sciences (for lack of a better word) because obviously they are, but letting one change the rules of another does nothing to help separate them.

it's not bs, you seem to not understand the difference between tonality and modality. like i said, thats fine, perhaps you should educate yourself on the difference to understand why so people are adamant about using proper terminology.

as an fyi you can't debate well by "your rules" which are things like "Give me another term for each set of intervals that happen to form modes that can be used in tonal music. And not just calling it a minor or major scale with some intervals being raised or lowered" i've given you the accurate description, no other is needed.


in the end though, thats how the scale functions. not modally but tonally. the movement, consonance, dissonance and resolution of a piece determines which it is - tonal or modal. if you want to call things the wrong names then thats fine, do that. but don't be surprised when people start pointing out the inaccuracies and try not to get offended that people do it on a forum that is * believe it or not * primarily intended to help people who want accurate information.
Last edited by z4twenny at Jul 10, 2011,
#32
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
In Mad World, the song I posted. It clearly uses the intervals 1, 2, 3b, 4, 5, 6, 7b. Dorian. Now if it were aaany other set of intervals that didn't just so happen to match a mode, then you would allow it to be named, but because it happens to match a mode it has to instead be describe as a minor scale with some accidentals. This makes no sense, and it makes the concepts of modal music interfere with those of tonal music, which doesn't at all help keep the two as separate things.

EDIT: So, Sean, you would say that Mad World is actually F minor but with the 6ths being raised to natural? As a regular scale, there is no such term for this. You say I can use whatever term I want, but there would be another term for this besides Dorian if it wasn't appropriate to call it Dorian.



I don't have the score in front of me, where are the D naturals at that time? and what are the chords playing in that moment where D's are used? As I recall, the song sounds like it changes from Minor to major at some point "I think it's kind of "funny". A lot like "While my Guitar Gently Weeps" by the Beatles, which goes from Minor to Major.

Break it down as to where the D's are and what chord's playing at the time.

Best,

Sean
#33
I just want to clarify that I am really trying to understand how I am wrong, rather than argue. Not the difference between tonal and modal music. I may not know how to compose modal music, but I do understand there they are two completely separate practices. What I'm not understanding is why I can't call a set of intervals by the only name that was given to describe those intervals. Why is it that if I take a minor scale, and flatten the 2nd, or raise the 6th, or take a major scale and raise the 4th or flatten the 7th, that I am not allowed to give the scale a name, like I could with any other modification? Because the new scale happens to also be a mode? That lets the practice of one change the rules of the other, which doesn't make sense to me. All of my research, outside of the threads like these that people argue in, has told me that me that a mode (such as the Phrygian mode) is also a scale (the Phrygian scale). Why not?

EDIT: It takes me a long time to reply by the way because I try as hard as I can to make sure I understood absolutely everything that was said and that I'm stating my points as well as I can. Apologies if I cause any confusion but not replying as fast as you guys.
Last edited by Macabre_Turtle at Jul 10, 2011,
#34
Quote by Sean0913
I don't have the score in front of me, where are the D naturals at that time? and what are the chords playing in that moment where D's are used? As I recall, the song sounds like it changes from Minor to major at some point "I think it's kind of "funny". A lot like "While my Guitar Gently Weeps" by the Beatles, which goes from Minor to Major.

Break it down as to where the D's are and what chord's playing at the time.

Best,

Sean


The highest vocal pitch of the chorus (Fm, Bb, Fm, Bb) (such as the "fu-" in "funny) are D notes, being played over a Bb chord, which has a D. The verses (Fm, Ab, Eb, Bb) have no D's in the melody, only the D that is in the Bb chord.
#35
^ it would help to see all the sheet music (though i'm not asking you to provide it) from my recollection of the song i'd probably just consider that a borrowed chord from the parallel major key.

Quote by Macabre_Turtle
What I'm not understanding is why I can't call a set of intervals by the only name that was given to describe those intervals.

its not the only name used to describe those intervals. maybe this isn't what you're having troubles with. while E phrygian and E minor b2 have the same collections of notes, the function differently between tonal and modal. e phrygian is the modal term you would use if it was a modal song. e minor b2 is the proper term to use to describe a tonal tune.
Quote by Macabre_Turtle

Why is it that if I take a minor scale, and flatten the 2nd, or raise the 6th, or take a major scale and raise the 4th or flatten the 7th, that I am not allowed to give the scale a name, like I could with any other modification? Because the new scale happens to also be a mode?

like i said above, just because it uses the same collections of notes as a mode, doesn't make it a mode. you could call it whatever you want for your own reference, but its not logical or rational much in the same sense that you can call a cat a turtle, but it's not really a turtle, it's just this name you're applying to it. the issue is that when you go from tonality to modality the structure and form changes so E minor b2 does function and resolve differently than E phrygian. sure they're both EFGABCD, but theres 2 different writing conventions used. you wouldn't call 2 different kinds of music the same thing simply because they have some things in common would you?
Quote by Macabre_Turtle

That lets the practice of one change the rules of the other, which doesn't make sense to me. All of my research, outside of the threads like these that people argue in, has told me that me that a mode (such as the Phrygian mode) is also a scale (the Phrygian scale). Why not?

on this one i can safely say that no one will ever argue with you about a mode containing a scale. a scale is a collection of notes. how those notes are used determines tonality or modality.
Last edited by z4twenny at Jul 10, 2011,
#36
After reading that response, I think what you're missing from me is that I am not referring to them as modes when talking tonal music. When I use minor with a flattened 2nd in tonal music, I don't call that the Phrygian mode, I call it the Phrygian Scale. I made that distinction before this whole debate actually started.

EDIT: I believe I at some point said I was using modes but not writing modal music. This was poorly worded and incorrect from me. What I was trying to say was that I was using the intervals those modes are constructed with. Outside of that error I did try to avoid calling it a mode when talking about tonal music.

REEDIT: to the borrowing from a parallel major key thing. The 6th is always major, never minor, in the entire piece. That's why I don't simply say that it is the natural minor scale and sometimes uses a major sixth.
Last edited by Macabre_Turtle at Jul 10, 2011,
#37
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
The highest vocal pitch of the chorus (Fm, Bb, Fm, Bb) (such as the "fu-" in "funny) are D notes, being played over a Bb chord, which has a D. The verses (Fm, Ab, Eb, Bb) have no D's in the melody, only the D that is in the Bb chord.


That would make sense. The D is part of the Bb which comes from the F Major. In fact that's the "major third I thought I was hearing".

Best,

Sean
#38
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
After reading that response, I think what you're missing from me is that I am not referring to them as modes when talking tonal music. When I use minor with a flattened 2nd in tonal music, I don't call that the Phrygian mode, I call it the Phrygian Scale. I made that distinction before this whole debate actually started.

you can call it that, but as far as i know the phrygian scale is the collection of notes used in the phrygian mode. the real issue is that while you can call it that when you come upon people who know the proper naming conventions you're going to get them correcting you because this is based off of an ancient system and there is a generally acknowledged naming convention in music. people who actually know music and how it works are going to say something like "uh what? thats not the phrygian scale because of this, this and this, it's e minor with a flattened second" then you'll get people who don't know any better accepting it as some kind of accurate statement when as compared to the correct terminology, it's not. you can call a cat a turtle, but all you're going to do is confuse people who don't know any better.
#39
Quote by z4twenny
you can call it that, but as far as i know the phrygian scale is the collection of notes used in the phrygian mode. the real issue is that while you can call it that when you come upon people who know the proper naming conventions you're going to get them correcting you because this is based off of an ancient system and there is a generally acknowledged naming convention in music. people who actually know music and how it works are going to say something like "uh what? thats not the phrygian scale because of this, this and this, it's e minor with a flattened second" then you'll get people who don't know any better accepting it as some kind of accurate statement when as compared to the correct terminology, it's not. you can call a cat a turtle, but all you're going to do is confuse people who don't know any better.


SearchEdu.com is, as it sounds, a search engine for .edu websites. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I've always been under the understanding that if something is written on a .edu website, it is to be taken as truth. Now, if you search a mode in there followed by scale (so searching "Phyrgian scale," or "Dorian scale" or so forth) you will find pages using these terms. I did not create them.
#40
Quote by Sean0913
That would make sense. The D is part of the Bb which comes from the F Major. In fact that's the "major third I thought I was hearing".

Best,

Sean


So are you saying the same thing as the other guy? That the Bb chord is being borrowed from the key of F major? Why can't it simply be that the song is in the Dorian scale?
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