#4
so if i was playing in the key of E maj and i wanted to play an E 6 chord with no 5th wouldn't i just be playing the C# min chord which is the 6th chord of E Maj ?

if so why call it a 6th chord ?

just call it a C# min chord .
#5
Quote by ssob
so if i was playing in the key of E maj and i wanted to play an E 6 chord with no 5th wouldn't i just be playing the C# min chord which is the 6th chord of E Maj ?

if so why call it a 6th chord ?

just call it a C# min chord .

All depends on context and its function. If it functions as an E, then itll be an E6, if it Fuctions as a C# chord, then C# minor will do
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#6
Quote by stickfigurekill
If it sounds good, there's nothing stopping you from having a 6 chord with no 5th.


well, there is kinda. you can't have a 6th chord with no 5th, it doesn't exist. look at how the intervals add up. if you have a sixth chord, grand, however, with no 6th, just 1,3,6, that's just a first inversion chord built on what your calling the 6th in this chord. there's absolutely no way your ear can hear that any other way than being a first inversion of the other chord.
#7
chord names arent set in stone.

the way the notes are played dictates a lot, the resounding note, etc.

if i play an F# minor, with a 6th, rather than the 5th, im basically playing a D major chord. but, i'll call it whatever i feel like it is. if im using it as an F# with a twist, then i'll name it an F# whatever.

etc.

that's how i work anyway
#8
Quote by Zinnie
All depends on context and its function. If it functions as an E, then itll be an E6, if it Fuctions as a C# chord, then C# minor will do


That's absolutely correct, Am can also be seen as a C6. The same chords can have different names, depending upon context and function.

Best,

Sean
#9
Quote by Zinnie
All depends on context and its function. If it functions as an E, then itll be an E6, if it Fuctions as a C# chord, then C# minor will do


yeah sobb you got it, it's just an inversion of the other chord. as for this quote, how exactly could a C# minor function as any sort of E? that's like saying a III chord is practically just a i7 even without the tonic note?
#10
Quote by gavk
well, there is kinda. you can't have a 6th chord with no 5th, it doesn't exist. look at how the intervals add up. if you have a sixth chord, grand, however, with no 6th, just 1,3,6, that's just a first inversion chord built on what your calling the 6th in this chord. there's absolutely no way your ear can hear that any other way than being a first inversion of the other chord.


This is exactly what I was thinking.
IMO, I don't see anything wrong with writing D6(omit 5th), for example. But I guess it depends on the context and what the bass player is doing if it's in a band context.
#11
Quote by UnmagicMushroom
This is exactly what I was thinking.
IMO, I don't see anything wrong with writing D6(omit 5th), for example. But I guess it depends on the context and what the bass player is doing if it's in a band context.


oh yeah, it'd be grand if there's a bass or any other musician playing the 5th, just cos it's omitted on the guitar doesn't mean it's not that chord, but a 6(no5th) by itself couldn't be interpreted any other way than an inversion. i know you weren't saying it was, i'm just saying for the other people!
#12
Most of the time '6th' chords are first inversion 7th chords.

In a V - I cadence, omitting the fifth of the tonic and replacing it with a 6th gives you a V- vib progression. If you milk it, you can sort of have it functioning as I but it doesn't sound satisfactory.

Gav, you beat me to it about it still being the same chord if the bass playing plays the missing note
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Jul 14, 2011,
#13
Quote by griffRG7321
Most of the time '6th' chords are first inversion 7th chords.

In a V - I cadence, omitting the fifth of the tonic and replacing it with a 6th gives you a V- vib progression. If you milk it, you can sort of have it functioning as I but it doesn't sound satisfactory.


ha yeah this came up in another thread, i dunno if i even believe in 6th chords, i (not so) secretly think they're all just 7ths inverted!
#14
In all of my experience, I've seen the 6th chords (in usage) treat the 5th as not required or optional.

Does anyone else notice this as well?

In fact, my Hal Leonard Theory Poster which I have posted in every one of my Academy Classrooms shows that a 6th chord is 1 3 6 in its formula.

Now I don't have a problem saying that a 6th has a 5th in it, but I also have no problem calling something a 6th in practice without exception, if it doesn't have one. Especially on guitar.

Best,

Sean
#15
Its more likely seen in jazz, I've had quite a few times where we had a vamp set around the key of F, it would go F9 to F6, keeping the F tonality. That could be an example. I don't see 6th chords used in popular music, at least none that I've heard
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#16
Quote by griffRG7321
Most of the time '6th' chords are first inversion 7th chords.

In a V - I cadence, omitting the fifth of the tonic and replacing it with a 6th gives you a V- vib progression. If you milk it, you can sort of have it functioning as I but it doesn't sound satisfactory.

Gav, you beat me to it about it still being the same chord if the bass playing plays the missing note



I think 6th chords are the spies of minor chords.
We've got to be vigilant!
#17
sean do you mean the inversion, like figured bass? as in first inversion normal chord? or an actual 6th chord?

@ griff@ ma bad!

jesus all the conspiracy theories are coming out!
Last edited by gavk at Jul 14, 2011,
#18
why would the 5th matter if a bass (in a band situation) was playing it . it is considered not to have any tonal significance on a chord ?

when you omit a note from a chord its the first one to go .

so i guess the 6th chord don't actually exist .
#19
Quote by ssob
why would the 5th matter if a bass (in a band situation) was playing it . it is considered not to have any tonal significance on a chord ?

when you omit a note from a chord its the first one to go .

so i guess the 6th chord don't actually exist .


Yes, the fifth is usually the first to go, especially when the 6th of the chord in question is only a major 2nd away. The point is that leaving out the 5th will often leave you with an inverted triad of a different root. Function can dictate otherwise, such as alternating using the 5th and 6th ala blues/roots music.

I guess the lesson is that it's harder to establish a 6th chord properly without the 5th than it is with it.
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#20
Quote by soviet_ska
Yes, the fifth is usually the first to go, especially when the 6th of the chord in question is only a major 2nd away. The point is that leaving out the 5th will often leave you with an inverted triad of a different root. Function can dictate otherwise, such as alternating using the 5th and 6th ala blues/roots music.

I guess the lesson is that it's harder to establish a 6th chord properly without the 5th than it is with it.


I guess in this case 6th chords can be great for subtle tone changes by pulling the 5th in and out. Kind of like an E7 moving to an Fdim, subtle but effective
#21
Quote by gavk
well, there is kinda. you can't have a 6th chord with no 5th, it doesn't exist. look at how the intervals add up. if you have a sixth chord, grand, however, with no 6th, just 1,3,6, that's just a first inversion chord built on what your calling the 6th in this chord. there's absolutely no way your ear can hear that any other way than being a first inversion of the other chord.


Man, how did I miss that? Thanks for catching that.
#22
Quote by gavk
well, there is kinda. you can't have a 6th chord with no 5th, it doesn't exist. look at how the intervals add up. if you have a sixth chord, grand, however, with no 6th, just 1,3,6, that's just a first inversion chord built on what your calling the 6th in this chord. there's absolutely no way your ear can hear that any other way than being a first inversion of the other chord.



i have seen it and used it often with no 5th... even in a blues progression .. where it was used as a major 6 ..not a dom 13!

the wonderful world of harmony/chords has very flexable rules...and is some cases none at all..you CAN make it up as you go..
#23
Quote by wolflen
i have seen it and used it often with no 5th... even in a blues progression .. where it was used as a major 6 ..not a dom 13!

the wonderful world of harmony/chords has very flexable rules...and is some cases none at all..you CAN make it up as you go..


not neceserily people would say theory is very strict .


i have another question though , is all Maj & min diatonic 6th chord's harmonizied from there key scale ?
#24
Quote by ssob
not neceserily people would say theory is very strict .


i have another question though , is all Maj & min diatonic 6th chord's harmonizied from there key scale ?


Remember that theory is descriptive, not prescriptive. If you have a semblance of reason to call something a E6 instead of a C#m/E, you go right ahead, just be prepared to support your conclusion.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but in a major scale, there are sixth chords on the I, ii, IV and V.
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