#1
How does the order go for A harmonic Minor?

A aeolian #7
B locrian #6
C Ionian #5
D Dorian #4

Then whats the rest? And on what fret do I start on?
#2
starting the harmonic minor scale on a different note does not necessarily give you a new scale. It is based on the progression/tonality of the piece. Itll just more than likely be A minor with the raised 7th

Buuuuuut since you asked

A harmonic minor
B locrian #6
C harmonic major
D dorian #4
E phrygian Dominant.
F lydian #2
and I'm not sure what to call G.

But remember, these aren't going to help you play modally, or help you with new scales. Like I said, it'll either be major or minor with accidentals
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#3
Quote by Zinnie
starting the harmonic minor scale on a different note does not necessarily give you a new scale. It is based on the progression/tonality of the piece. Itll just more than likely be A minor with the raised 7th

Buuuuuut since you asked

A harmonic minor
B locrian #6
C harmonic major
D dorian #4
E phrygian Dominant.
F lydian #2
and I'm not sure what to call G.

But remember, these aren't going to help you play modally, or help you with new scales. Like I said, it'll either be major or minor with accidentals


Thanks! Also, my guitar teacher said that we will be learning the "A Harmonic Minor Scale" and in the scale he shows me all these modes, however, he did not write it clearly and it is confusing for me to understand. Also, I think the G is called Mixolydian.
#4
Quote by Zinnie
starting the harmonic minor scale on a different note does not necessarily give you a new scale. It is based on the progression/tonality of the piece. Itll just more than likely be A minor with the raised 7th

Buuuuuut since you asked

A harmonic minor
B locrian #6
C harmonic major
D dorian #4
E phrygian Dominant.
F lydian #2
and I'm not sure what to call G.

But remember, these aren't going to help you play modally, or help you with new scales. Like I said, it'll either be major or minor with accidentals


you mean G#. i've heard people call it a diminished scale. then i bitchslap them.

honestly, TS, the modes of harmonic minor are not really important. when they're not totally ineffective, they can be easily explained as being in a major or minor key.

G# A B C D E F G# is basically just locrian b4 bb7. i've heard people call it the ultralocrian. i heard someone call it mixolydian #1, which i think is completely preposterous.

though your efforts are better directed at grasping more important and fundamental concepts now, TS. learn about intervals, chords, and keys. extremely important.

Quote by ickypop
Thanks! Also, my guitar teacher said that we will be learning the "A Harmonic Minor Scale" and in the scale he shows me all these modes, however, he did not write it clearly and it is confusing for me to understand. Also, I think the G is called Mixolydian.


...i can tell you right now, your guitar teacher either:

1) has no idea what modes are; or
2) is an extremely poor teacher.

you'd have to not understand anything about anything to be such a poor teacher (one that would instruct first-grade students in algebra), so i'm betting on option 1.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jul 14, 2011,
#5
Quote by AeolianWolf
you mean G#. i've heard people call it a diminished scale. then i bitchslap them.
.

I did mean G#, my 3 key wasnt working too well. I had a think of gravel under it :/ but Yeah, I was trying to tell him that theyre essentially useless, and it'll 99% be in major or minor with accidentals haha
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#6
Quote by AeolianWolf
you mean G#. i've heard people call it a diminished scale. then i bitchslap them.

honestly, TS, the modes of harmonic minor are not really important. when they're not totally ineffective, they can be easily explained as being in a major or minor key.

G# A B C D E F G# is basically just locrian b4 bb7. i've heard people call it the ultralocrian. i heard someone call it mixolydian #1, which i think is completely preposterous.

though your efforts are better directed at grasping more important and fundamental concepts now, TS. learn about intervals, chords, and keys. extremely important.


...i can tell you right now, your guitar teacher either:

1) has no idea what modes are; or
2) is an extremely poor teacher.

you'd have to not understand anything about anything to be such a poor teacher (one that would instruct first-grade students in algebra), so i'm betting on option 1.


Not to discourage you man but my guitar teacher is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K73c7U9e0Mo&feature=related
#7
Guys I am confused because he is showing me these modes and he says they are in "A harmonic Minor"
#8
Quote by ickypop
Not to discourage you man but my guitar teacher is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K73c7U9e0Mo&feature=related


discourage me? ha, you're funny.

if that's what he thinks of modal education, then i'm ENcouraged, if anything.

Quote by ickypop
Guys I am confused because he is showing me these modes and he says they are in "A harmonic Minor"


they're not in A harmonic minor. all he's doing is teaching you one scale -- A harmonic minor. that's it.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#9
Quote by AeolianWolf

G# A B C D E F G# is basically just locrian b4 bb7. i've heard people call it the ultralocrian. i heard someone call it mixolydian #1, which i think is completely preposterous.


#1? That's ridiculous!
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#10
Quote by ickypop
Not to discourage you man but my guitar teacher is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K73c7U9e0Mo&feature=related


I mean that's great I guess. Music like that frankly bores me now, though I can appreciate the technical ability to it.

But the Modes of Harmonic minor as others are saying, might be better stated as scales based off different degrees of the Harmonic minor scale. Most of the time these scales if you see them used will be in a jazz context. I get why he'd call them modes, and I don't join the others in downing him, but its important to understand that more times than not actual context of these scales will be in a Major/Minor key used as flavor notes, and many times over specific chords in Jazz. Noted exception: Phrygian Dominant.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jul 14, 2011,
#11
Quote by Sean0913
I mean that's great I guess. Music like that frankly bores me now, though I can appreciate the technical ability to it.

But the Modes of Harmonic minor as others are saying, might be better stated as scales based off different degrees of the Harmonic minor scale. Most of the time these scales if you see them used will be in a jazz context. I get why he'd call them modes, and I don't join the others in downing him, but its important to understand that more times than not actual context of these scales will be in a Major/Minor key used as flavor notes, and many times over specific chords in Jazz. Noted exception: Phrygian Dominant.

Best,

Sean

yeah my brother's in college right now learning all this crazy jazz stuff and he often says to the intermediate/advanced player looking to get better, "its very important to understand the modes of harmonic and melodic minor for use over altered dominant chords in jazz." idk if he's properly educated on modality vs. tonality, but either way, it makes sense that you would use these....scales, modes, whatever they are...over certain chords. OFCOURSE, this is provided that the chord lasts long enough for a new scale. it'll usually be in extra-weird types of jazz that you see completely different scales switching around over certain long lasting chords. i was schooled here on proper jazz soloing...if the altered chord doesn't last long enough, you keep playing your solo in the major or minor scale (smoothly, just playing a long melody you could sing), then maybe try to work in an accidental that was included in the altered chord.

ickypop, idk if your foundation is good or not...cuz idk if your teacher is good or not. but make sure you understand things like harmony (if i give you a collection of notes, you can name the chord, explain why it has that name, and describe its possible functions in a progression), then when you get into these things like...the "modes" of different scales, make sure you know if you're really playing modally, or just using them as scales or major w/ accidentals and whatnot ect. stuff other people are already saying yaknow.
Last edited by TMVATDI at Jul 15, 2011,
#12
If you know your major and minor scales, chord tones, melodic decoration and have an average ear then learning 14 new modes is a complete waste of time.
#13
Quote by TMVATDI
yeah my brother's in college right now learning all this crazy jazz stuff and he often says to the intermediate/advanced player looking to get better, "its very important to understand the modes of harmonic and melodic minor for use over altered dominant chords in jazz." idk if he's properly educated on modality vs. tonality, but either way, it makes sense that you would use these....scales, modes, whatever they are...over certain chords. OFCOURSE, this is provided that the chord lasts long enough for a new scale. it'll usually be in extra-weird types of jazz that you see completely different scales switching around over certain long lasting chords. i was schooled here on proper jazz soloing...if the altered chord doesn't last long enough, you keep playing your solo in the major or minor scale (smoothly, just playing a long melody you could sing), then maybe try to work in an accidental that was included in the altered chord.

ickypop, idk if your foundation is good or not...cuz idk if your teacher is good or not. but make sure you understand things like harmony (if i give you a collection of notes, you can name the chord, explain why it has that name, and describe its possible functions in a progression), then when you get into these things like...the "modes" of different scales, make sure you know if you're really playing modally, or just using them as scales or major w/ accidentals and whatnot ect. stuff other people are already saying yaknow.



Great post TMVADTI, and right on the money - You've come a long way!

Best,

Sean
#14
While it's good "knowledge wise" to try and learn the modes and chords of any 7 note scale, it's also good application to know which ones to bother with. So, in the end it's good knowledge but doesn't have a lot to do with application.

In my 30+ years of playing a guitar to crazy music, I have only found a use for three of the modes within the Harmonic minor scale, and one of them I only found a reason to use once!

One is the Harmonic Minor scale. I find this is used in songs written in a Minor Key when the v7 chord is changed to a V7. The Harmonic Minor brings out the strong M3 sound of the V7 as well as the basis of all tension and release, the leading-tone. The Minor Key itself contains use of the Natural Minor, Harmonic Minor, and even the Melodic Minor. So related to the Key, you are not playing a mode based on what chord you are on but are playing the scale related tonic of the Key.

The other is the 5th mode, but many times when this is used it's not a mode of the Harmonic Minor scale it is it's own scale. Hence why it has is own name classifying it, the Phrygian Dominant scale. This is used over basic Major triads/chords as well as over a 7th chord. It's usually used as over a drone or long vamp, or over a non-diatonic/stand alone/non functioning 7th chord.

The third one I've needed is the mode from the m3 of the scale. This is a great scale when you find a maj7#5 chord you have to play over. I've only really found this once in a tune myself...it was an Fmaj7#5 chord. I would play the third mode of the D Harmonic Minor scale.

Many decades ago I went through the process of 'figuring out' the modes of the Harmonic Minor scale thinking "I'll write a song or a chord progression using the scale". The scale doesn't pan out in the same pleasing, or even remotely close to pleasing, way the Major and Natural Minor scale do. IOW, everything sounds force at best.
Last edited by MikeDodge at Jul 15, 2011,
#15
Quote by Sean0913
Great post TMVADTI, and right on the money - You've come a long way!

Best,

Sean

thanks

i'm still workin out the whole modality/tonality thing myself, but the way i see it, i've got a lot of time left until it matters. walter piston's harmony gives a weird explanation...