#1
I'm baffled. A cousin of mine is doing this play and my aunt is getting angry that the school would put on this play and the community she's in is against it. I don't understand. The play doesn't seem pro-gay or whatever, more anti-killing, which I would have assumed everyone is against. It seems that they're up in arms over a play condemning killing someone in such a heinous way.

If noone knows, the Laramie Project is about the after math in a community where a gay man was killed in a terrible terrible way. He was brained by the butt of a revolver, dragged behind a truck, then crucified in a cornfield and he was so disfigured that the runner who found him thought he was a scare crow. The play is basically condemning the actions of the people who did it.
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#2
Why is anything having to do with gay people controversial?

Short answer: homophobia and bigotry
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#4
Quote by StewieSwan
Why is anything having to do with gay people controversial?

Short answer: homophobia and bigotry


I guess the way I see it, being gay barely has anything to do with it. It was the killer's reason for the killing, but that's not the point. The point is that a human being died in a horrific way.

Quote by jetfuel495
Well there's your problem.


They're in a small town in Canute, I'm in Kansas City, Missouri, not an obviously republican place. But even Conservative Christians should be horrified by this case.
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Last edited by tayroar at Jul 18, 2011,
#5
Quote by tayroar
I guess the way I see it, being gay barely has anything to do with it. It was the killer's reason for the killing, but that's not the point. The point is that a human being died in a horrific way.



Well here's a more complex answer:

The right-wing pundits and bloggers paint the project as a pro-gay sympathy-fest and the regular jerkoffs who don't do any research just take it at face value. I bet if you asked an opponent they wouldn't have any idea what TLP is about. They'd just call it part of the 'gay agenda' and leave it at that.
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#6
Quote by StewieSwan
Well here's a more complex answer:

The right-wing pundits and bloggers paint the project as a pro-gay sympathy-fest and the regular jerkoffs who don't do any research just take it at face value. I bet if you asked an opponent they wouldn't have any idea what TLP is about.


Yeah, that's probably true. I guess I don't get what this is threatening for them. It just makes it sound like they're okay with gay people being crucified.
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#8
Quote by genghisgandhi
*Hopes ethan finds this thread*


+1

From your description, it sounds fairly violent too, which could be another reason.
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#9
I guess to keep this topical, do you guys think we should legislate hate crimes, and if so should we include gays as a group protected by the hate crime law? This is one of the points the play makes.
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#11
Quote by tayroar
I guess to keep this topical, do you guys think we should legislate hate crimes, and if so should we include gays as a group protected by the hate crime law? This is one of the points the play makes.



Absolutely not.
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#12
Quote by StewieSwan
Absolutely not.


I kinda agree with you to an extent. I generally don't believe in reduntant laws. I mean, murder is already against the law, but the arguments I hear for hate crime is that it's harmful to an entire community.
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#14
Quote by tayroar
I kinda agree with you to an extent. I generally don't believe in reduntant laws. I mean, murder is already against the law, but the arguments I hear for hate crime is that it's harmful to an entire community.



Perhaps, but HCL is a little too close to 'thought crime' for me. It essentially makes racism, homophobia, sexism, etc illegal.
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#15
Quote by StewieSwan
Perhaps, but HCL is a little too close to 'thought crime' for me. It essentially makes racism, homophobia, sexism, etc illegal.


Not really, it makes crimes perpetrated because of racism, sexism, or homophobia carry heavier sentences than they already do. Like if a KKK member lynch a black guy they'd get a heavier sentence than if they'd killed a white guy.
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#16
Quote by tayroar
Not really, it makes crimes perpetrated because of racism, sexism, or homophobia carry heavier sentences than they already do. Like if a KKK member lynch a black guy they'd get a heavier sentence than if they'd killed a white guy.



Which is why it is essentially making racism, sexism, etc illegal. Those extra years in prison are added on because of the offender's religious, political, racial, or sexual views. If a man has 10 years added to his sentence because it was a hate crime, then for those last 10 years of his sentence he is in prison because he is a racist or whatever.
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#17
Quote by StewieSwan
Which is why it is essentially making racism, sexism, etc illegal. Those extra years in prison are added on because of the offender's religious, political, racial, or sexual views. If a man has 10 years added to his sentence because it was a hate crime, then for those last 10 years of his sentence he is in prison because he is a racist or whatever.


But the crime does affect more people. An attack like that makes the entire community fearful. It could have been anyone, and that's what all the gays were reminded of. Like, if a terrorist kills an American overseas, all Americans overseas have reason to be afraid. If a bigot kills a gay for being gay (and proving the hate being the motivator is very very important) then it causes all gays to be afraid. But it should work both ways. I mean, shouldn't a gay killing a homophobic for being homophobic be considered a hate crime as well?
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#18
Quote by tayroar
But the crime does affect more people. An attack like that makes the entire community fearful. It could have been anyone, and that's what all the gays were reminded of. Like, if a terrorist kills an American overseas, all Americans overseas have reason to be afraid. If a bigot kills a gay for being gay (and proving the hate being the motivator is very very important) then it causes all gays to be afraid. But it should work both ways. I mean, shouldn't a gay killing a homophobic for being homophobic be considered a hate crime as well?



I don't think it's a crime to indirectly scare people.
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#19
Quote by StewieSwan
I don't think it's a crime to indirectly scare people.


What purpose for killing someone for being gay than to stop people from being gay, to threaten them? Is it really so indirect?
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#20
Quote by tayroar
What purpose for killing someone for being gay than to stop people from being gay, to threaten them? Is it really so indirect?



Don't misunderstand what indirect means. It simply means it wasn't targeted at a specific person. Direct threats are already illegal in most places.
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#21
Quote by StewieSwan
Perhaps, but HCL is a little too close to 'thought crime' for me. It essentially makes racism, homophobia, sexism, etc illegal.


I agree with this man/woman/child. Hate crime legislation seems to me to directly contradict the First Amendment of the US Constitution. Whether your in the US or not, you'll probably agree that the idea of freedom of speech, petition, religion and co. is a reasonable one.

Basically, HCL = not the best idea we've ever had.

EDIT: A theater in the city near my university was putting on the Laramie Project and the WBC said they were going to do a protest. About 500 gays/gay supporters (including myself) went to counter-protest. The WBC never showed resulting in their worst nightmare: a big gay block party.
Last edited by FrauVfromPoB at Jul 18, 2011,
#22
Quote by StewieSwan
Which is why it is essentially making racism, sexism, etc illegal. Those extra years in prison are added on because of the offender's religious, political, racial, or sexual views. If a man has 10 years added to his sentence because it was a hate crime, then for those last 10 years of his sentence he is in prison because he is a racist or whatever.
I'm not so sure. I think of it in the way pedophilia is only illegal when you act on it. Simply being attracted to kids isn't illegal (or is it?), but buying/distributing child pornography or worse, molesting/raping children is illegal. These people aren't in jail because they are attracted to children, they are in jail because they acted on the attraction.
Last edited by due 07 at Jul 18, 2011,
#24
Quote by Eastwinn
+1

From your description, it sounds fairly violent too, which could be another reason.


No sir, I've heard of schools doing a play version of the Donner Party cannibalism story, which would probably equally as gruesome. I'm thinking it's because of anti-gay stuff.
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#25
Quote by due 07
I'm not so sure. I think of it in the way pedophilia is only illegal when you act on it. Simply being attracted to kids isn't illegal (or is it?), but buyin/distributing child pornography or worse, molesting/raping children is illegal. These people aren't in jail because they are attracted to children, they are in jail because they acted on the attraction.


It's not the same, because sentences for child rapists/molesters/etc don't differ based on how much the offender enjoyed it.
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#26
Quote by Dirge Humani
Every time you type HCL I think Hydrochloric Acid.

That is all.


That's your bad, cause the L is a different case

Stew: We judge crimes based on intent quite frequently, so I don't find hate crime laws to be anymore policing of thought than distinguishing between the random slaying of city goers and murdering your husband for the life insurance check. However, they are incredibly impractical and way too subjective.
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#27
Quote by Eastwinn
+1

From your description, it sounds fairly violent too, which could be another reason.


It isn't about him being killed, it all takes place after the fact. From what I remember of it, it centers on the killer's trial.


Quote by Eastwinn
That's your bad, cause the L is a different case

Stew: We judge crimes based on intent quite frequently, so I don't find hate crime laws to be anymore policing of thought than distinguishing between the random slaying of city goers and murdering your husband for the life insurance check. However, they are incredibly impractical and way too subjective.


That's the biggest problem I see with it. I mean it could easily become overly used for the sake of vengeance, like it's easy to point out a KKK member lynching a guy is a hate crime, but what if a guy who happens to be black breaks into a guys house who happens to be a white supremacist's house and gets shot? In a way that's clearly self defense, but it could be seen as a hate crime if misinterpreted.

Or the beginning of American History X, where the black guy tries to steal the white supremacist's car, and Ed Norton's character goes beyond self defense and does the curbstomp. Is the second degree murder, or is it a hate crime? How can you prove that he wouldn't have done the same thing had it been a white guy.
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Last edited by tayroar at Jul 19, 2011,