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#1
Seems that today is a good day for the Tories after all. While everyone's distracted by the Murdochs getting a grilling, they slipped this one out the door:

The government will open up more than £1bn of NHS services to competition from private companies and charities, the health secretary announced today, increasing fears that it will inevitably lead to the "privatisation of the health service".

In the first wave, beginning next April, eight NHS areas – including musculo-skeletal services for back pain, adult hearing services in the community, wheelchair services for children and primary care psychological therapies for adults – will be open for "competition on quality not price".

If successful, the policy, known as "any qualified provider", would see non-NHS bodies allowed from 2013 to deliver more complicated clinical services in maternity and "home chemotherapy".


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/19/nhs-services-open-to-competition?CMP=twt_gu

Needless to say, I think this reeks of bovine excrement.
#2
Smells like America

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Skittles is the shit you cuntles. Slob on his knob.

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#3
The market has no place in healthcare, it can't cope with externalities and the necessity to focus on patient welfare rather than profit.
We might not need benevolent butchers and bakers, but we do need benevolent doctors and nurses as has been shown by the mess that is made when people pervert their incentives towards profit rather than patients.
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-Ronald Reagan

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#4
Quote by Das_Skittles
Smells like America

at least it doesn't smell like teen spirit
#5
sound... well done tories, nice one that!
Belief is a beautiful armour but makes for the heaviest sword.
#6

You're becoming America!
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#9
Quote by SG_dave
Well ****.
I can't wait for the next election to roll round, we'll finally get rid of these monkeys who are "running the country".

Oh no but this is what people wanted!
#13
Quote by Dirge Humani
I really don't see what is so bad about this.

If I read it right, they aren't abolishing anything, just allowing other 'companies' to offer the same services... if you still want to use the NHS, you still can...


It's the first step to privatisation. If I'm not mistaken, this is how the public transport privatisation started.
#15
I dont know, if the whole program is regulated properly, unlike the American system, it could result in better, quicker, more efficient healthcare. But I'm not that naive, it will probably be crap for everyone, like everything we do.
[lUlLaBiEs tO pAraLyZE]
#16
Quote by Dirge Humani
And surely if the NHS is good enough, which I have been led to believe it is, it will be able to compete with the private companies just fine..?


They'd have to start the profit game like private companies would do. That can only mean a decline in quality for them.
#17
Quote by SG_dave
They'd have to start the profit game like private companies would do. That can only mean a decline in quality for them.

Would they?

How is it funded right now? Taxes, right? And everyone in the country pays those taxes, right? As long as those taxes don't go away, then it could (theoretically) keep operating the way it is now...
#18
Quote by Dirge Humani
Would they?

How is it funded right now? Taxes, right? And everyone in the country pays those taxes, right? As long as those taxes don't go away, then it could (theoretically) keep operating the way it is now...

if the funding stays as it is, then there is no competition.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

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Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#20
The efficiency gains from privatization have never been proven (if they have please hook me up with some sources). So why do goverments keep going down that route? I don't see how "The civil servant, who briefed on the condition of anonymity, also said that the new policy would promote innovation", is a plus for the private sector. Just make sure that more capable persons are willing to work in the public sector and you won't need this. A government can work as efficient as a company. Even more efficient because there is no profit, so the price can be lower.
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#21
The whole point of this is precisely so that the funding doesn't have to stay as it is and the money can instead be spent on bailing out banks and other nonsense.
#22
Quote by michal23
The whole point of this is precisely so that the funding doesn't have to stay as it is and the money can instead be spent on bailing out banks and other nonsense.


Wut? Apparently I do not know enough about how healthcare is financed in Britain, because if I do then your argument makes no sense at all. Because that would be a disaster for peoples budgets.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#23
This stupid but not quite as random as putting GP's in charge of everything. My Dad tried to convince me that privatisation and competition will improve health care, it makes me sad.
OUT OF ORDER
#24
Quote by Neo Evil11
Wut? Apparently I do not know enough about how healthcare is financed in Britain, because if I do then your argument makes no sense at all. Because that would be a disaster for peoples budgets.


I may be wrong, but as I understand it, the whole point of allowing private companies to provide these services is to eventually not have to pay for the state to provide them too, 'saving' money.
#25
Quote by michal23
I may be wrong, but as I understand it, the whole point of allowing private companies to provide these services is to eventually not have to pay for the state to provide them too, 'saving' money.


But what does it matter if the people pay for them directly or if the state pays for it? For the poor people the last one is actually better. The government can't collect the same taxes and then give it to bankers and not to healthcare. Taxes should be lowered in that case.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#26
Quote by Neo Evil11
But what does it matter if the people pay for them directly or if the state pays for it? For the poor people the last one is actually better. The government can't collect the same taxes and then give it to bankers and not to healthcare. Taxes should be lowered in that case.


It matters because something as basic as a CT scan costs well over $1000 which many, many families simply cannot afford, so I cannot see how paying directly benefits the poor person.

EDIT: Worth noting that's for a full body scan and going by American prices. Apparently it costs the NHS less in this particular instance, but there are a myriad of other examples in which diagnostics or medicines can cost many thousands per go.
Last edited by michal23 at Jul 19, 2011,
#27
Quote by Neo Evil11
But what does it matter if the people pay for them directly or if the state pays for it? For the poor people the last one is actually better. The government can't collect the same taxes and then give it to bankers and not to healthcare. Taxes should be lowered in that case.


So what happens if someone gets cancer, is foreced to leave their job because of their ailing health and can't afford the treatment?
Health insurance will effectively be like getting taxed for it, but cost more.
#28
I'm not sure how you Brits are surprised. The NHS is going to become privatized over the 5 years. I thought everyone knew this.
#29
Quote by SG_dave
So what happens if someone gets cancer, is foreced to leave their job because of their ailing health and can't afford the treatment?
Health insurance will effectively be like getting taxed for it, but cost more.


You should reread. That was my point.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#30
Quote by Neo Evil11
You should reread. That was my point.


Dude, I just looked over what you said again. I think we misunderstood each other, 'cause we're essentially arguing for the same thing
#31
This looks good. It doesn't say you won't be able to use NHS services instead, and it doesn't say you'll have to pay any cash, so anyone complaining is just doing so ideologically and not on the basis of desirable results.
#32
Quote by captaincrunk
This looks good. It doesn't say you won't be able to use NHS services instead, and it doesn't say you'll have to pay any cash, so anyone complaining is just doing so ideologically and not on the basis of desirable results.


I think most of us are worried on the basis that this may be the start of a slippery slope.
#33
Quote by michal23
I think most of us are worried on the basis that this may be the start of a slippery slope.

Fallacy, my nigga, fallacy.

One battle at a time dude. I bet you're the same kind of guy who complains about Republicans saying no to anything remotely "socialist" but you're doing the same thing for the same kind of reasons.
#34
Quote by captaincrunk
Fallacy, my nigga, fallacy.

One battle at a time dude. I bet you're the same kind of guy who complains about Republicans saying no to anything remotely "socialist" but you're doing the same thing for the same kind of reasons.


Not really, it's just how every other privatisation scheme in the UK has taken place. Process of induction etc.
#35
I'm slightly confused. Are they cutting funding to NHS right now, or is that something people are worried about happening?
#36
Quote by due 07
I'm slightly confused. Are they cutting funding to NHS right now, or is that something people are worried about happening?


They've already announced that they're going to, but I think this is a separate issue as part of a general reconstruction of the NHS.
#39
Quote by michal23
They've already announced that they're going to, but I think this is a separate issue as part of a general reconstruction of the NHS.
Ah, thanks.

I don't think I like this. I generally hate using the slippery-slope argument, but yeah. I don't think healthcare can flourish in private markets.
#40
Quote by due 07
Ah, thanks.

I don't think I like this. I generally hate using the slippery-slope argument, but yeah. I don't think healthcare can flourish in private markets.
Well, I would suggest you take a look at French and German healthcare insurance schemes. Basically, both of those countries use a combination of the traditional US system (completely privatized healthcare) and the traditional UK system (completely publicized healthcare). It works quite well.

Now, I don't really feel the traditional US system is perfect. Though, I do like that it gives more freedom of choice. I just dislike that there's a great amount of inequality to it, in that the rich can afford better care and the poor just get whatever crumbs they can afford. However, conversely, I don't like the traditional UK system, because it does eliminate a lot of freedom of choice. Granted, the rich can still choose to go to a private service, but it's hardly on the same scale as the US. I'm coming to find that the German/French system makes more sense to me.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jul 19, 2011,
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