#1
Hey all,

I'm sure there have been threads like this before, but I couldn't find any whilst using the search feature on here.

I'm just wondering how much difference the guitar cab actually makes in a stack?

I'm currently running a Peavey Valveking head through a Kustom Quad 100 (I think) cab, and considering replacing it with an ENGL 2x12, any thoughts?

Thanks!
Jackson, Peavey, Line 6 <3
#2
A big difference.

Most 2x12's<Orange 2x12's

as a general example. (debatable, but as it's my opinion)

A lot of it has to do with construction quality, and sometimes features. You may have noticed (or at least I hope you've noticed) the mentioning of "Tonewoods" when talking about guitar design. Different woods will support different sustain and tone characteristics on a guitar.

Similarly, different woods/design dimensions will influence different sound from a speaker cabinet.

Go and try a Marshall 2x12, then a Mesa 2x12, then an Orange 2x12, and the Engl 2x12.

I've never played an Engl 2x12, but of the other three mentioned above, the Orange 2x12 sounds the "Biggest" like it jumped out of the woods with its mouth foaming and ready to kill innocent bystanders, the Mesa in close 2nd. The Marshall sounds good, but has to be really cranked to exhibit its good tonal qualities.

Play a few cabs, see which one you think sounds best. They definitely DO make a noticable difference in sound.
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#3
A huge amount. Speakers alone can change your tone completely. Cab construction will effect tone too.

Better construction obviously makes a better sounding cab. But then theres closed back vs open back, closed back having tighter bass response, open back will have more bass and a more open looser sound, then theres ported cabs which is the best of both really.

Terrible quality but watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDh6__10h3I

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK0sa7tlfI
#5
Quote by OrangeWalls
There ARE differences between different manufactures. Not all cabs have the same size, not all cabs use the same wood, even HOW the screws are placed matters.

For example, the oversized Mesas have alot more bottom end than a normal Cab, the standard Orange sounds alot fuller than other cabs due to the thicker wood, and a normal Framus sounds clearer and more brilliant than other cabs.


This is what I was told when I asked a very similar question

muledit:
In relation to engl cabs, I've heard that engl cabs have more of a midrange 'honk', and that people have various amounts of success with those cabs with non engl amps.
Personally, I'd recommend either a mesa, orange or marshall [leaning towards mesa or orange] as opposed to an engl cab
RIP Gooze

cats
Last edited by mulefish at Jul 20, 2011,
#6
Thanks guys!

I already knew wood, construction, and speaker all effect sound, I just hadn't realised quite how much.

I think I'll be getting an ENGL or Purple Chili 2x12 very soon.

EDIT: Anyone got any opinions on how V30s and V60s compare? I can't find much about it online, but apparently V60s are a bit more scooped than the V30s.
Jackson, Peavey, Line 6 <3
Last edited by NetherSpirit at Jul 20, 2011,
#7
I'd assume that V60 = 60 watt. In which case they would be a little bit cleaner at higher volume levels, wouldn't break up as much.
RIP Gooze

cats
#8
The V30 is 60 watt too ^

The V60 certainly sounds nothing like a V30. It is correct that these are made by Celestion specifically for Engl for some of their cabs. They are a slightly mid-scooped speaker, in terms of tone. The bass is quite tight, treble is bright but not harsh. Yes, definately a more modern, higher gain-tone speaker.
I liked one, with an Eminence Governor in a 2x12, to add lots of mids, for a more vintage tone.
I never got to play them at high volume so can't really talk about speaker break-up.


The v60 is a budget speaker, i beleive the V30 has a higher sensitivity rating, which would make it a bit louder.
#9
Quote by mulefish
I'd assume that V60 = 60 watt. In which case they would be a little bit cleaner at higher volume levels, wouldn't break up as much.

The V30 is also 60 watts. And wattage-ratings only tell you how much thermal abuse a speaker can take, it doesn't tell you anything about how clean it sounds at what volumes and how/when it starts to break up.
#11
Quote by mulefish
I'd assume that V60 = 60 watt. In which case they would be a little bit cleaner at higher volume levels, wouldn't break up as much.

crazy cat man, every time i see your signature my heart smiles.


thank you for warming my heart of stone.


v30 and v60 are both 60 watt, but the 60 watt isn't.... scooped? idk, the v30 sound like they were made for thrash or something.


and on that note, i fell in love with that swamp thang speaker in that second link.... i'm torn between getting 2 of thsoe, or a blue dog and silver bell combo from weber.
indecisiveness is bad :'(
#12
Quote by beckyjc
I thought thats what RMS is?^

The maximum wattage it can take without distorting.

Nope. It's the thermal limit. Says nothing about distortion (granted there's certain tendencies that come with high or low wattage, but the wattage itself does not determine anything... there's a correlation, but definitely no causal connection).

Here's a list of Emi-speakers, each with wattage-rating and a note telling you how quickly they break up:
http://www.eminence.com/support/tone-guide/

For example, look at the Cannabis Rex, the Legend GB128 and the Red Fang. All rated at 50w, yet one breaks up quickly, the other slowly, and one at a medium pace. What's more, look at the Governor and you'll see that it breaks up quicker than the Legend or Cannabis Rex, even though it's power-handling is rated higher.

(All assuming Emi's info can be trusted, I can't test all of this stuff.)

From what I understand, distortion depends largely on the cone and probably the maximum linear excursion (Xmax) of a speaker.
#14
I've always wanted to hear the same speaker set through two different cabinets, like one cab has more volume than the other or a larger speaker baffle. It would be interesting to hear the differences just the size of the cabinet has on the final product.

I know the Marshall 4x12 cabinet (and it's derivatives) was designed to be as compact as possible, not in pursuit of a certain sound.
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#15
Quote by beckyjc
The V30 is 60 watt too ^


The v60 is a budget speaker, i beleive the V30 has a higher sensitivity rating, which would make it a bit louder.


i wouldn't call the V60 a budget speaker. It is amazing at what it is geared at.

TS the V60 speakers are super scooped and sound great for playing by yourself but if you ever need to play in a band situation you will get lost in the mix.
#16
Quote by TheQuailman
The V30 is also 60 watts. And wattage-ratings only tell you how much thermal abuse a speaker can take, it doesn't tell you anything about how clean it sounds at what volumes and how/when it starts to break up.

Well the more you know.

Quote by 00_hns_00
crazy cat man, every time i see your signature my heart smiles.


thank you for warming my heart of stone.



Quote by beckyjc
The v60 is a budget speaker, i beleive the V30 has a higher sensitivity rating, which would make it a bit louder.

I don't know if I'd call them budget when they come stock on some engl cabinets though.
RIP Gooze

cats
#17
They do put them in there lower end cabinets though..

I have heard complaints about the v60s being scooped. Maybe thats where the whole engl "doesnt cut through the mix" thing comes from, those bloody cabs with v60s. Heard it described about everything engl by teh haterz when its clearly not true.

I have a professional engl 2x12 horizontal with vintage 30s and its nice.
Last edited by coolstoryangus at Jul 21, 2011,
#18
I've recently seen a fairly pricey Trace Elliott 4x12" that also came with V60s. Dunno what's up with that. The V60 isn't available as an aftermarket speaker, is it?
#19
I'v had V60s and V30s and I can say that I found the V60s to have a very scooped low mid and a quite harshly boosted top end. I ran a 4x12 Engl cab with V60s for a good couple of years with all sorts of heads (dsl100, Engl powerball and SE, mesa triple rec, t-verb MkIV to name a few) and honestly the only head that I tried that I thought really sounded mean though it was the powerball which really sounded great. The rest all sounded much nicer through my old Bogner OS 2x12 - god why did I sell that cab
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Last edited by halikus at Jul 21, 2011,
#20
Quote by beckyjc
A huge amount. Speakers alone can change your tone completely. Cab construction will effect tone too.



+1

Different speakers make the most noticable difference in tone between cabs...but construction materials and dimensions also make a difference. The difference between a Mesa cab and an Orange cab are pretty noticable when you mic them both up, even though they may have the same speakers.
#21
I think eventually I'll be getting an ENGL with V30s then. However, I've just found a Line 6 412VS for about $430, which I could possibly afford alongside a nice new preamp. Anyone know anything about them? They come with V30s, so I'm guessing they're not absolutely terrible.

Thanks again!
Jackson, Peavey, Line 6 <3
#22
I'll start off with the conversation of the V30 and V60. Someone mentioned that the V30 is 60 watts - that's only half true. There are two versions of the V30 - a 60 watt version and a 70 watt version. One is made in China while the other is made in England (not sure which is which though).


As for cabs themselves, there are tons of factors that change the overall tone of a cab. Some of these would be overall speaker dimensions, type of wood used, placement of the speaker baffle, whether the joints are glued/screwed together or if dovetails are used, type of speakers, placement of the speakers on the baffle, inside bracing or outside corner bracing, etc.
#23
Quote by i_am_metalhead
I'll start off with the conversation of the V30 and V60. Someone mentioned that the V30 is 60 watts - that's only half true. There are two versions of the V30 - a 60 watt version and a 70 watt version. One is made in China while the other is made in England (not sure which is which though).


it may be more appropriate to say there was a 70 watt version available as OEM parts for particular cabs (i heard OEM part labeling for V30's used in closed back cabs were labeled at 70 watts, open back and after market cabs).

70 watt celestion were only available in 3rd party cabs for a set period of time and now they are only available in the aftermarket. i'd say the whole 70 watt V30 thing is more of a clever aside rather 'the other half of the story'.


Quote by i_am_metalhead
As for cabs themselves, there are tons of factors that change the overall tone of a cab. Some of these would be overall speaker dimensions, type of wood used, placement of the speaker baffle, whether the joints are glued/screwed together or if dovetails are used, type of speakers, placement of the speakers on the baffle, inside bracing or outside corner bracing, etc.


why didn't you just say that instead?

yeah, there are bunch of intricacies in matching speaker to amps.
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#24
Quote by gumbilicious
it may be more appropriate to say there was a 70 watt version available as OEM parts for particular cabs (i heard OEM part labeling for V30's used in closed back cabs were labeled at 70 watts, open back and after market cabs).

70 watt celestion were only available in 3rd party cabs for a set period of time and now they are only available in the aftermarket. i'd say the whole 70 watt V30 thing is more of a clever aside rather 'the other half of the story'.


why didn't you just say that instead?

yeah, there are bunch of intricacies in matching speaker to amps.


There are still companies like Marshall that have 70 watt V30s in their cabs.
#25
Is this wattage-thing really an issue though? I doubt it's two different speakers. Wattage-ratings are hardly ever exact, so while Celestion may be careful in it's estimations, Marshall may be more confident of the speakers' durability. Writing bigger numbers on their cabs is probably also a bonus.
#26
Quote by i_am_metalhead
There are still companies like Marshall that have 70 watt V30s in their cabs.


well, then they still offer them as OEM. then you can still only get them through 3rd party product and aftermarket. still not exactly what i'd call readily available.

and i am with duck on this one, i am guessing the speakers use the same recipe. nothing to back that up, it's just a feeling. same recipe, different sticker.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#27
All V30s are rated at 60-70 depending on what the OEM buyer wants. Some are more conservative than others and go with the 60W and some aren't and go with the 70W. There's a big thread over on TGP discussing the differences between V30s, including comments from a Celestion rep. Mesa, Marshall, Matchless and Bad Cat each have their own OEM version of the V30, in addition to the normal variant. There are subtle differences between them all but they all share the same voice coil with the same rating. The OEM models are made in Britain and the regular version moved production to China about 8 years ago.

As for cabs making a difference, they definitely do. I've run a pair of 70s Celestion Blackbacks through both a custom cab made by a guy here in Austin and a Custom Audio Amplifiers 212 and the difference is huge. The custom cab had a ton of low end and could get boomy and gross. The CAA cab had a smaller low end that was still prominent and was much tighter and more controlled. It also projects much better and less energy is lost to the cab resonating because of the porting that moves the resonant frequency down below the range of a guitar so it's a bit louder.
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#28
I have a little conumdrum.

I will be getting the peavey windsor head, and don't know which can to get. I'm gonna be going for a sort of van halen tone, and was wondering what cab. Then I saw this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aW_22MsTmY

I thought peavey cabs were crap? This sounds orgasmic :p
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