#1
Please? Midi attached, with the melody over it. It's 'Tabi no Tochuu' from Spice and Wolf.

The end clearly resolves to C#5, but the tonality is ambiguous. Here's what I have:
C# major, which plays a G# that leads into
Amadd9
Bsus4, but B major implied by the ornamental D#
E major, F# major,

C# major, ornamentation that adds a D# to lead into
Amadd9
Bsus4, but B major implied by the ornamental D#
E major, F# major, but there is a D# and G#, the 9th and 13th of F major

I haven't been able to work this out, I'm not familiar with this. If I get this down, I can work out the rest on my own. Any takers?
Attachments:
progression.mid
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#2
C# Aadd9 Bsus4 E
Gb
C# Aadd9 Bsus4 E
Eb7 (Eb F# Bb C#)

You've got all the embllishments, they're obvious. Those Aadd9 chords are major, given by the C#

What can't you work out though? You pretty much had it.
Last edited by Ultima2876 at Jul 21, 2011,
#3
I mean, what key is it in? What harmonies can I use with each chord? The tonality seems to switch around.

It starts off with a major chord on the tonic, seeming to indicate C# major. Then it switches to a minor chord on the sixth degree, like it's a switch to C# minor. The B is in C# minor, too. Then it plays an E major, which is in C# minor, but then plays an F# major, which is in C# major...

Hmm. C#, C#m, C#m, C#m/C#... it starts with C#, then quickly switches to its parallel minor. That continues, then the F# chord indicates a switch back to C#... right? Looking at the rest of the piece, it seems to borrow a 7 from the harmonic minor, and rarely a 6 from the melodic minor... I think I've answered my own question?

Is that the way anyone else would look at it?
Ibanez RG2228 w/ EMG808Xs | Line 6 POD HD500 | Mackie HD1221
Last edited by Dayn at Jul 21, 2011,
#4
im 90% sure this is modal borrowing/subdominant substitutions which is a bitch to explain

here are the functions only no extensions

C# A Bsus E F#

analyzed in C# major

I bVI bVII bIII IV

Give me a moment im going ot explain for you though

EDIt little mistake on the ast chord i forgot the I before the V

EDIt chords are not incorrect i was thinking about inversions and shit thats why i thought they werent at one point there all right perhaps the extensions arent though
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Last edited by British_Steal at Jul 21, 2011,
#5
To begin, you can substitute subdominant functions (ii and IV) from minor keys into major keys. This means you substitute ii from major with ii half diminished from minor, and IV major with iv minor (from minor). This creates an intensifying effect. The thing that makes it more intense is the bVI degree from minor present in both ii half diminished and iv minor. However, you can substitute other chords that arent necessarily minor as long as they contain the b6 in the context of the scale. This is a subdominant substitution.

Modal borrowing is taking other degrees that exist in other modes that give that mode its distinctive sound, and then substituting chords that exist from that mode because of the changed degree, basically 'borrowing' the sound of that mode.

Let me show you what i mean. Im going to spell out each chord in the progression and point out the notes that are


First

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C# ---> C# major scale

The bVI were looking for is the A

C# E# F#

A C# E ---> contains a bVI and a bIII note

B D#/E F# ---> contain a bVII bIII note

E G# B --> contains a bIII and a bVII

F# A# C#


basically your borrowing from a C# minor scale

C# minor C# D# E F# G# A B C# formula is 1 2 b3 45 b6 b 7

If you look A major, Bmajor/sus, E major all exist within that scale without modifications. Amajor(bVI) is a subdominant substitution, and the B (bVII) Emajor (bIII) is modal borrowing from C# minor/aeolian

so the correct analysis would have to be

I bVI bVII bIII and IV

the reason it doenst seem to resolve the best is maybe because it is a plagal cadence (IV I) instead of a regular one (V I )
Quote by The Spoon
Unless you're sure she likes you, telling her you like her has a 110% chance of failing.

But hey, at least you have a 10% chance of absolutely guaranteeing failure.
Last edited by British_Steal at Jul 21, 2011,
#6
Thanks a lot for that. I think I understand it... it made more sense when I realised it was A, not Am (not sure how I made that mistake: I blame the b6). I've done some reading on chord borrowing, and I think I understand the modal borrowing now. Though if one stayed in C# major, what diatonic chords would have the same function as the borrowed ones? Like instead of C# -> A, if one stayed within C# major, would there be a chord that could fulfil the same function as the borrowed A? Is that possible?

Late edit: that's actually a really good analysis, thanks a lot. A whole new world of chord possibilities is open!
Ibanez RG2228 w/ EMG808Xs | Line 6 POD HD500 | Mackie HD1221
Last edited by Dayn at Jul 22, 2011,
#7
If anyone's interested, with some more help I ended up coming to this conclusion:

It starts off in C#, then plays A (there's a strong A in the bass), B, E, then F#. The A-B-E progression is a IV-V-I cadence in the key of E major, which is the relative major of C#m, which is C#'s parallel minor. It then skips back to C#, to have a IV-I plagal cadence from F# to C#.

So it would be, in C#:
I-bVI-bVII-bIII-IV, or I-IV/bIII-V/bII-I/bII-IV.
It's very cool.
Ibanez RG2228 w/ EMG808Xs | Line 6 POD HD500 | Mackie HD1221
#8
I thought about the modulation to E major idea it could be interpreted that way, the reason i dont like it is its only tonizized once and it doenst really feel like E major is ever the tonic, its more of a tonizization a temporary shift to that key. It sounds more like it still has the function of chords in C# major. Im not an expert in theory but it doesnt really sound like theres a IV V I modulating it to E major. It could be more like it modulates from C# major to C# minor to C# major though like I vi viii iii IV but that seems wrong as well

Also answer your other progression if this were in one key and it wanted to retain the same function/sound as much as possible, id say it would actually be in C minor as it already contains the bVI and bIII and most of the borrowing is from there anyways.

i vi vii iii iv

so

C# minor A major B major E major and F# major

that would be the closest in key equivalent i think. I think if anything though it modulates from C# major to C# minr
Quote by The Spoon
Unless you're sure she likes you, telling her you like her has a 110% chance of failing.

But hey, at least you have a 10% chance of absolutely guaranteeing failure.
Last edited by British_Steal at Jul 22, 2011,
#9
C# F G#
A C E
B E F
E G B
F A C

C# D# E F G G# A B C C#

C# W D# h E h F W G h G# h A W B h C h C#

So, WhhWhhWhh

Pattern rather than scale, and certainly not modal.
#10
Quote by Colohue
C# F G#
A C E
B E F
E G B
F A C

C# D# E F G G# A B C C#

C# W D# h E h F W G h G# h A W B h C h C#

So, WhhWhhWhh

Pattern rather than scale, and certainly not modal.


Youve got the wrong chords there lol

and that doenst really analyze/solve/explain anything either
Quote by The Spoon
Unless you're sure she likes you, telling her you like her has a 110% chance of failing.

But hey, at least you have a 10% chance of absolutely guaranteeing failure.
#11
Quote by British_Steal
Youve got the wrong chords there lol

and that doenst really analyze/solve/explain anything either


Those are the notes from the chords in the original post. The question is on key. It isn't in a key, or, as is more likely, it's in a key that uses accidentals. As such, the simply note breakdown shows the options available through comparison to other scales.

I'm not going to do everything.