#1
One of my favorite songs, River of Deceit by Mad Season. Just to make sure I'm getting this music theory down. It has ALL the right chords for the key of G and the licks are based on G maj penta BUT doesn't the key of G usually have a F#dim? because Mike McCready uses a F instead. Is this an example of borrowing from the parallel minor?

PS: A friend of mine said I can use a D7 in place of a F#dim, if this is true, why is it?
#2
Yes, it is borrowing from the parallel minor.

As for your other question, both D7 and F#dim have a strong pull towards the tonic, seeing as they are the fifth and sevenths of the G major scale, respectively.
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#3
Quote by rockingamer2
Yes, it is borrowing from the parallel minor.

As for your other question, both D7 and F#dim have a strong pull towards the tonic, seeing as they are the fifth and sevenths of the G major scale, respectively.


so technically then we could see G major scale as

G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em and D7? so instead of a 7th we just use the 5th again but as a 7th??
#4
Quote by FlexEXP
so technically then we could see G major scale as

G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em and D7? so instead of a 7th we just use the 5th again but as a 7th??

G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim. In a progression, you could use the 7th chord...F#dim...or the 5th chord...D...to pull towards the tonic...G.

Also, to add 7ths, you have...

Gmajor7, Aminor7, Bminor7, Cmajor7, Ddominant7 (or just D7), Eminor7, and F#half-diminished7.
#5
Quote by FlexEXP
so technically then we could see G major scale as

G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em and D7? so instead of a 7th we just use the 5th again but as a 7th??


no. because D7 would be used in place of D. you can substitute D7 for F#º, but when you need to build a chord off the seventh degree, you build it off the seventh, not the fifth. what about F#º7?

D7 is built off the dominant; F#º is built off the leading tone.
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#6
Quote by FlexEXP
so technically then we could see G major scale as

G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em and D7? so instead of a 7th we just use the 5th again but as a 7th??


It's better to think of the D7 as an alternative to D. You're just modifying the chord by adding extentions using notes that are already within the scale.

Don't ignore the F#dim just because it isn't widely employed. It's still there and is the technically correct chord, diatonic built off the 7th note. It's far more common to employ the Fmaj (borrowed from the parallel minor as mentioned above) as an alternative to F#dim.

However if you "need" something with an F# root, there's nothing saying that you can't use F#maj or F#min in it's place. One could argue that the D has that F# in it so could be shared by the melody if it emphasises that note, the same argument could be made for B min.
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#7
Quote by AlanHB
It's better to think of the D7 as an alternative to D. You're just modifying the chord by adding extentions using notes that are already within the scale.

Don't ignore the F#dim just because it isn't widely employed. It's still there and is the technically correct chord, diatonic built off the 7th note. It's far more common to employ the Fmaj (borrowed from the parallel minor as mentioned above) as an alternative to F#dim.

However if you "need" something with an F# root, there's nothing saying that you can't use F#maj or F#min in it's place. One could argue that the D has that F# in it so could be shared by the melody if it emphasises that note, the same argument could be made for B min.


See, I thought for the longest using F#m would be ok. I just want to switch it up when I'm not doing Jazzy chords all the way through a song using G. and I hardly ever use F#dim, its an interesting chord and I find it interesting that if you take out the F# in one of the F#dim chord shapes, you get D7. I imagine its the same with the other F#dim shapes.
#8
Quote by FlexEXP
See, I thought for the longest using F#m would be ok. I just want to switch it up when I'm not doing Jazzy chords all the way through a song using G. and I hardly ever use F#dim, its an interesting chord and I find it interesting that if you take out the F# in one of the F#dim chord shapes, you get D7. I imagine its the same with the other F#dim shapes.

I think you have it backwards boss, if you take the D out of D7, you end up with F#dim

D7 - D F# A C
F#dim - F# A C
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#9
Quote by Zinnie
I think you have it backwards boss, if you take the D out of D7, you end up with F#dim

D7 - D F# A C
F#dim - F# A C



so witht hat being said, I could do a x-0-0-2-1-2 as D7 but if i turn it into x-0-0-2-x-2, that's an F#dim?
#10
Quote by FlexEXP
See, I thought for the longest using F#m would be ok. I just want to switch it up when I'm not doing Jazzy chords all the way through a song using G. and I hardly ever use F#dim, its an interesting chord and I find it interesting that if you take out the F# in one of the F#dim chord shapes, you get D7. I imagine its the same with the other F#dim shapes.


You're still ignoring where it resolves. If I take out the F# from F#dim, it doesn't magically resolve somewhere else - what if there's a bass player or a melody resolving the chord to F#?

Quote by FlexEXP
so witht hat being said, I could do a x-0-0-2-1-2 as D7 but if i turn it into x-0-0-2-x-2, that's an F#dim?


What if I told you that second chord was still a D7? Or a D maj? It's about the resolution mate.
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#11
Quote by FlexEXP
so witht hat being said, I could do a x-0-0-2-1-2 as D7 but if i turn it into x-0-0-2-x-2, that's an F#dim?

x-0-0-2-1-2 is D7, your second example gets rid of the 7th, not D.

If you were to play, say, x-x-x-2-1-2, thats an Inverted F#dim. But its all depending on context. If the bass played a D, itd be seen as a D7. Leaving out one note from a chord doesnt alter its use
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#12
Ok, so would x-0-x-2-1-2 count as a F#dim?

I get what your saying about the resolve but my initial question would be because a guy I know told me that D7 could be used in place of F#dim, no question. he didn't talk about resolve but he made it seem like one is some kind of inversion of another, yes I know that sounds stupid but this is why I ask lol.
#13
Quote by FlexEXP
Ok, so would x-0-x-2-1-2 count as a F#dim?

I get what your saying about the resolve but my initial question would be because a guy I know told me that D7 could be used in place of F#dim, no question. he didn't talk about resolve but he made it seem like one is some kind of inversion of another, yes I know that sounds stupid but this is why I ask lol.


Would it count as a D7? Depends where it resolves. Cmon man.

Here's a question for you.

If I play this:

 x-x-x-2-2-x


Which chord does it function as?

(a) A major
(b) F# minor
(c) Dmaj7
(d) Depends where it resolves.
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#14
Quote by FlexEXP
I get what your saying about the resolve but my initial question would be because a guy I know told me that D7 could be used in place of F#dim, no question.


He was likely refering to the function of the two chords. Both hold a dominant function (resolve strongly to the tonic) and can be interchanged within a progression.

Or, as someone mentioned, he could just be thinking that D7 completely contains F#*, which it does (and tells you a lot about why they function the same way!)

EDIT:
Quote by AlanHB
 x-x-x-2-2-x


Which chord does it function as?

(a) A major
(b) F# minor
(c) Dmaj7
(d) Depends where it resolves.


C#6...duh!
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Last edited by soviet_ska at Jul 25, 2011,
#15
Quote by FlexEXP
One of my favorite songs, River of Deceit by Mad Season. Just to make sure I'm getting this music theory down. It has ALL the right chords for the key of G and the licks are based on G maj penta BUT doesn't the key of G usually have a F#dim? because Mike McCready uses a F instead. Is this an example of borrowing from the parallel minor?

PS: A friend of mine said I can use a D7 in place of a F#dim, if this is true, why is it?



We'll the "Diatonic" key of G definitely has the F#dim, but there are a LOT of songs that "tonally resolve" to the G which have their origins in other "borrowed" keys. One of the most commonly borrowed chords, is the bVII from the Gm - If you examine a song like Freebird - that song is made possible with the use of the bVII (F) If you can imagine how dramatically different and UNCOOL it would sound with a G D/F# Em to F#o C and D. Diatonically speaking its solid, but musically, considering the real way the song was made...its weak...and doesnt have the same vibe.

Funny how just a single chord can change an entire song!

Best,

Sean
#17
I'm understanding the resolve issue (I think). So the chord itself D7/F#dim depends on the bass note aka resolve? Am I getting this right or am I still far off?

Quote by Sean0913
We'll the "Diatonic" key of G definitely has the F#dim, but there are a LOT of songs that "tonally resolve" to the G which have their origins in other "borrowed" keys. One of the most commonly borrowed chords, is the bVII from the Gm - If you examine a song like Freebird - that song is made possible with the use of the bVII (F) If you can imagine how dramatically different and UNCOOL it would sound with a G D/F# Em to F#o C and D. Diatonically speaking its solid, but musically, considering the real way the song was made...its weak...and doesnt have the same vibe.

Funny how just a single chord can change an entire song!

Best,

Sean


Yep. I realized after awhile that Freebird did indeed use a chord from the parallel minor and what a difference it made in the verse. Are you saying though that the final product was weak?
Last edited by FlexEXP at Jul 25, 2011,