#1
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/29620423/black_metal_song_2.mp3

(the file name has nothing to do with the style )

First attempt at mastering. ( minor mastering off course )

Improvements using your tips guys :
- Modified every single drum midi velocity to give every hit a certain velocity ( with a narrow gap off course between the highest and lowest velocity )
- Wasn't hesitant to cut bands of frequencies.
- Boosted low end for toms cut between 300 - 800 hz and boosted the 1200 k hz
- Kick probably needs a boost , but I like it that way.

For mastering :

I used mutliband compression + reverb ( automation for reverb )

Not sure I did it right. Just finished the recording/ mixing/ mastering, so my ears are probably damaged and very biased. That is why I'm uploading here to have your opinions on this one.


Sounds good on my headsets, haven't tried monitors.
However I couldn't help but notice that the -3 db bar got breached several times, I can't seem to hear the clipping at the moment though.

( ear damage )
The symphonizer
#2
I apologize, but I haven't listened, as I am not on my "listening" computer, but a few things struck me here in your post:

Quote by Sympho

For mastering :

I used mutliband compression + reverb ( automation for reverb )


Reverb is intended to simulate a depth of space, as in a room. One of the most common mistakes in mixing is having two drastically different reverbs - say a short reverb on the vocal and a large reverb on the drums, with the net effect being that the drums and vocals sound like they are in different rooms.

What is your intention for automating the reverb?

Quote by Sympho

Sounds good on my headsets, haven't tried monitors.


You can't mix properly without monitors. I'll guarantee that when YOU go back and listen to this on monitors that YOU will find stuff that needs fixing.

Quote by Sympho

However I couldn't help but notice that the -3 db bar got breached several times, I can't seem to hear the clipping at the moment though.


You shouldn't get clipping until you cross the 0db line. -3db is no problem, and by modern standards, represents a pretty quiet mix. (not that that's a bad thing....)

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#3
Humm, guitars sound very trebly, very weak, no punch, and not much clarity. I would prolly remove the reverb, it's making things muddy.

Also, try not to compress your guitars, but compress the bass guitar so the notes sound more equal to each other( I know getting a even level of hits while playing bass is an issue in metal).

The drums sound pretty good though, so I'd leave them be. Just the guitars are very thin, and have no punch to them, high pass to high seems like, and not low passed enough.

If you're recording with a mic, try high passing at 25 hz, and low passing around 10,000 hz.
#5
Reverb is intended to simulate a depth of space, as in a room. One of the most common mistakes in mixing is having two drastically different reverbs - say a short reverb on the vocal and a large reverb on the drums, with the net effect being that the drums and vocals sound like they are in different rooms. What is your intention for automating the reverb?


Don't have vocals on this one yet, just working on the instrumental first.

I'm sorry, I was too tired yesterday to write properly. I used automation on delay and not on reverb. Reverb on the main was stable and on low volume just to add ambiance.


You can't mix properly without monitors. I'll guarantee that when YOU go back and listen to this on monitors that YOU will find stuff that needs fixing.



I agree, I'll be checking them on monitors today to see what's wrong.


Humm, guitars sound very trebly, very weak, no punch, and not much clarity. I would prolly remove the reverb, it's making things muddy.


The question is, do they really need such clarity you're talking about ? I chose that guitar sound to give it that extreme old school taste.

About the reverb, I'll try to remove it and see how things work.

Also, try not to compress your guitars, but compress the bass guitar so the notes sound more equal to each other( I know getting a even level of hits while playing bass is an issue in metal).


Noted , will try that.


If you're recording with a mic, try high passing at 25 hz, and low passing around 10,000 hz.


Hmm I guess that's the problem. I high passed at 200 Hz.
I thought the whole purpose of high passing was to keep the low end clear for kick and bass and other instruments, correct me if I'm wrong. ( I'm still new to this )


First off it sounds like your mixing, not mastering...but anyway...I'll listen tomorrow and give an opinion to you.


Possible. To this day I don't know what mastering exactly does. But I figured it would be messing with the whole track contrary to messing with each instrument. ( eqing the master etc, Ozone vsts and stuff like that )
The symphonizer
#6
Quote by Sympho
Hmm I guess that's the problem. I high passed at 200 Hz.
I thought the whole purpose of high passing was to keep the low end clear for kick and bass and other instruments, correct me if I'm wrong. ( I'm still new to this )

It is.

IMO, high passing at 25 Hz is pretty low, since you're not really cutting out enough frequencies that would interfere with the bass and kick drum. Usually I do it around 115 Hz.
Quote by Dave_Mc
I've had tube amps for a while now, but never actually had any go down on me
Quote by jj1565
maybe you're not saying the right things? an amp likes to know you care.





www.SanctityStudios.com
#7
Quote by MatrixClaw
It is.

IMO, high passing at 25 Hz is pretty low, since you're not really cutting out enough frequencies that would interfere with the bass and kick drum. Usually I do it around 115 Hz.



Only when the original signal is already bassy to begin with, if you high pass a signal that doesn't have much bass to begin with so high, you'll make it sound thin. I use a SM-58, and I high pass at 25 hz because the original signal isn't very bassy, I have a bigger problem taming the highs than the lows.

By cutting just 25 or 50 hz, your giving enough room for the kick, but mainly the bass guitar, to fill the lows of the guitar, the kick will stand out on it's own, and will also be supported by the bass guitar.

Old school sound? Are you kidding me? The old school metal sound was the BEST they could do because most old school metal bands were very poor, and couldn't afford good equipment to make better mixes, I guarantee you, if they could of made it sound better, they would of.

You don't want your guitars to be muddy, it's takes away from the punch, and adds in to much sonic information, which makes your track become cluttered, which affects everything, from bass, to drums, and just the overall clarity of the track. In your track, since the guitars are so muddy, you can't hear each individual note, and you can hardly even hear the chord changes, it's just a wall of sound, people don't like a wall of sound in metal, they want clarity, and to hear each individual note.

And since you're not riffing, you want that clarity to make the song less boring.
#8
Quote by ethan_hanus
Only when the original signal is already bassy to begin with, if you high pass a signal that doesn't have much bass to begin with so high, you'll make it sound thin. I use a SM-58, and I high pass at 25 hz because the original signal isn't very bassy, I have a bigger problem taming the highs than the lows.

By cutting just 25 or 50 hz, your giving enough room for the kick, but mainly the bass guitar, to fill the lows of the guitar, the kick will stand out on it's own, and will also be supported by the bass guitar.

Old school sound? Are you kidding me? The old school metal sound was the BEST they could do because most old school metal bands were very poor, and couldn't afford good equipment to make better mixes, I guarantee you, if they could of made it sound better, they would of.

You don't want your guitars to be muddy, it's takes away from the punch, and adds in to much sonic information, which makes your track become cluttered, which affects everything, from bass, to drums, and just the overall clarity of the track. In your track, since the guitars are so muddy, you can't hear each individual note, and you can hardly even hear the chord changes, it's just a wall of sound, people don't like a wall of sound in metal, they want clarity, and to hear each individual note.

And since you're not riffing, you want that clarity to make the song less boring.



I guess you're right, guitar choice could have been better.

How about lead guitars ?
The symphonizer
#9
There is some clipping occasionally I think from the lower frequencies I would roll everything off below 35hz.

As for the lead maybe a bit much to reverb, but the guitars are kind of muddy so its hard to tell if its the reverb.

Question...did you go and cut out every frequency that you don't need? That is something that has made my newer stuff improve a ton in quality.
Last edited by FireHawk at Jul 30, 2011,
#10
Quote by FireHawk

Question...did you go and cut out every frequency that you don't need? That is something that has made my newer stuff improve a ton in quality.



Yeah I am curious about that, what do you mean by unwanted frequencies ? Would love to know about that.

Because what I basically remove are the basic stuff: I apply high pass / low pass filters

I've been hearing that some people take out specific frequencies, wanted to know what's the deal behind that


P.s : as for the sound, I removed reverb, things seemed clearer now, but drums lost a bit of power
The symphonizer
Last edited by Sympho at Jul 30, 2011,
#11
Okay so....first read...
http://www.digitalprosound.com/2002/03_mar/tutorials/mixing_excerpt1.html
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.html
http://www.sirgalahad.org/paul/music/eq-guide.html

Those can help guide you to an improved sound, a lot of this is what people refer to on removing certain types freq.

There is also what I call complete sound removal of freqs not needed/how to only get freqs you need.

Take a look at this. Not the greatest example as it is in the middle of a note change, (its hard to capture a screen shot of something in motion lol) but you get the idea. The curve is my EQ curve. The lower notes that are curved out are not really helping the sound. To find that I grabbed my EQ curve and kept pulling towards the center to clear up quality of the synth without taking a way from the tone of the lowest note (basically getting rid of sounds you can't hear that just make everything kind of sound muddy), and then stopped there and adjusted the EQ "curve" (or q) so it sounded natural.

After this I applied the same thing to the high end as you can see on the right. Only I kept some of the quieter high end freqs (the lighter notes) cause they fit in the mix.

Hard to explain without you being here to hearing it lol

edit:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13941876/Little%20Monster%20Master%20Attempt%202.mp3 <- The sound I used for example is the synth that goes da-da-da-dana when the vocals come in and lead in the chorus (notice how it stands out in chorus)

edit: the thing with reverb is its very easy to get to much. in headphones get the amount you think you need and roll the wet back about 5% is a good idea.

edit: what i said kinda applies to all music...so yeah...
Last edited by FireHawk at Jul 30, 2011,
#16
High pass filter, and low pass filter, on a parametric EQ it should look like a steady but steep rounded drop, not just a instant drop off a cliff. If you don't have any pass filters VST's, I recommend you get some. Real EQ in Reaper has a high pass, low pass filter built in.

You can add reverb to your drums separate of the master mix, just apply a reverb VST to it. I like the Tal Reverb VST, has some nice drum reverb settings in it.
#17
Quote by ethan_hanus
High pass filter, and low pass filter, on a parametric EQ it should look like a steady but steep rounded drop, not just a instant drop off a cliff. If you don't have any pass filters VST's, I recommend you get some. Real EQ in Reaper has a high pass, low pass filter built in.

You can add reverb to your drums separate of the master mix, just apply a reverb VST to it. I like the Tal Reverb VST, has some nice drum reverb settings in it.



Hmm the picture was just an example for the cut that I saw in the link he provided, just wanted to make sure what he meant by : cut around 1100 hz

Also , for the reverb, the problem is that I have separated all the drum tracks into different inserts, is there a way I can use 1 reverb Vst to all these inserts ?


Also, that's one of the most important thing I forgot to ask you about, and I'd appreciate the help.

I'm having troubles getting my lead( guitars and vocals ) to sound "into" the mix. I've been told compression and limiters do the trick, but they still sound awkward in the mix , as if they were too edgy and too high for the mix. What should be done ?
The symphonizer
#18
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13941876/bussing.jpg

Okay go to each individual hit on the mixer (snare, kick, hat, etc.) find and empty channel and click and arrow that looks grey (like the one circled in black). Also on each hit (snare, kick, hat, etc.) click the master arrow so you don't hear it twice (circled in red).

This will make all the sound from the hits (snare, kick, hat, etc.) go to a single channel where you can add an effect to all of them then it will be sent to the master channel with the effect for you to hear.

Make sure the master channel is still lit up on the drum bus you are creating.

For vocals open up parametric EQ2 and use the preset for vocals and work with it from there. it helps a lot for cheaper mics.

Throw bass behind the guitars, and maybe give some guitars back there mid sounds if they are two trebely.
Last edited by FireHawk at Jul 31, 2011,
#19
Thank you very much that was so helpful ! that was exactly what i was looking for

as for the parametric eq2 , I already used the vocals preset, the voice still sounded off mixx
The symphonizer
#20
did you try to adjust it?. also add reverb to the vocals?

the thing with mixing is you kind of just have to experiment to get the right idea and then just keep using those ideas
#21
Quote by Sympho
Hmm the picture was just an example for the cut that I saw in the link he provided, just wanted to make sure what he meant by : cut around 1100 hz

Also , for the reverb, the problem is that I have separated all the drum tracks into different inserts, is there a way I can use 1 reverb Vst to all these inserts ?


Also, that's one of the most important thing I forgot to ask you about, and I'd appreciate the help.

I'm having troubles getting my lead( guitars and vocals ) to sound "into" the mix. I've been told compression and limiters do the trick, but they still sound awkward in the mix , as if they were too edgy and too high for the mix. What should be done ?


You can mute every other track other than your drums, and export them as a wav, then reimport them back into the DAW as a single drum track, and apply the reverb that way.

If you want something to cut, typically you use more mids and highs, I compress lead guitars a bit, but not too much, I don't have much experience with vocals, so idk. If they sound thin and trebly without any compression or EQ, then rerecord it until you can get it to sound half way decent without too much EQ'ing.
#22
I used to add reverb to instrument track just like any other effect but not anymore. I learned a much better way of using reverb. Instead, I SEND the audio signal of any particular instrument to a RETURN track where I have a reverb placed. Much like what axemanchris said, you don't want different reverb settings throughout the project. With a return track, you can have multiple instruments/vocals being affected by the same type of reverb while still being able to address the amount of reverb per instrument with the SEND percentage. With this setup, you can automate the SEND percentage on the different tracks. A good way/example to use this type of automation is if you are trying to make a vocal build; Increase the send % at a decent rate and then cut off back to your original amount right after the build is over.

Hopefully this made sense.
#23
I never understood that send return thing, read about it , but always seemed vague
The symphonizer
#24
Quote by lextexrex
I used to add reverb to instrument track just like any other effect but not anymore. I learned a much better way of using reverb. Instead, I SEND the audio signal of any particular instrument to a RETURN track where I have a reverb placed. Much like what axemanchris said, you don't want different reverb settings throughout the project. With a return track, you can have multiple instruments/vocals being affected by the same type of reverb while still being able to address the amount of reverb per instrument with the SEND percentage. With this setup, you can automate the SEND percentage on the different tracks. A good way/example to use this type of automation is if you are trying to make a vocal build; Increase the send % at a decent rate and then cut off back to your original amount right after the build is over.

Hopefully this made sense.


Absolutely the best way. usually.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#25
Quote by Sympho
I never understood that send return thing, read about it , but always seemed vague


Some guys who are more hardcore into the recording thing do complex stuff like that, but you can get a perfectly usable and perfectly fine sounding reverb by just applying a reverb VST directly to the specific track like a NORMAL person would do, and adjusting the setting from there, which is why I like the TAL reverb VST, cause it lets you control the decibels of wet to dry signal your getting, and has a bunch of built in EQ stuff.
#26
Quote by ethan_hanus
Only when the original signal is already bassy to begin with, if you high pass a signal that doesn't have much bass to begin with so high, you'll make it sound thin. I use a SM-58, and I high pass at 25 hz because the original signal isn't very bassy, I have a bigger problem taming the highs than the lows.


That's probably because you're using an SM-58, and could also be due to your setup and the EQ settings on the amp. The 58 has a slightly higher response in the lows than the 57 does, though. However, both don't have much response at all past the 50Hz mark (it's below -10dB at that point).
Quote by Dave_Mc
I've had tube amps for a while now, but never actually had any go down on me
Quote by jj1565
maybe you're not saying the right things? an amp likes to know you care.





www.SanctityStudios.com
Last edited by MatrixClaw at Aug 1, 2011,
#27
Quote by ethan_hanus
Some guys who are more hardcore into the recording thing do complex stuff like that, but you can get a perfectly usable and perfectly fine sounding reverb by just applying a reverb VST directly to the specific track like a NORMAL person would do, and adjusting the setting from there, which is why I like the TAL reverb VST, cause it lets you control the decibels of wet to dry signal your getting, and has a bunch of built in EQ stuff.



hahaha i like this post
The symphonizer
#28
The first time I read about SEND/RETURN reverb, I also thought it was too ridiculous as well and it didn't make much sense. After making more electronic music, I finally figured out why they do it that way. By trying to increase the dry/wet parameter past 50%, you end up losing the original sound for just the reverb. With SEND/RETURN, you don't sacrifice the original sound even after increasing the dry/wet knob all the way. That's pretty much the main reason it's used. Hopefully that clears out all the rambling in my previous post.
#29
^ Well, that and the fact that you can save a lot of CPU by bussing several things to one instance of the reverb/effect you might want on all of them, just like if you were to bus things to outboard on an analogue console.

And you can have a chain of effects all lined up on the aux, that will only effect the reverb/main effect while leaving the original track unscathed (i.e different EQ ahead of the reverb to send less boomy low end through the verb for a purer verb, or compression on the verb but not on the original track).

It's also a lot quicker in the mixer to have your reverb levels on individual faders so you don't have to keep opening up the plug-ins to adjust wet/dry levels, as is the case for bussing tracks to groups (i.e a drum group fader, bass tracks, guitars etc.)
Hey, look. Sigs are back.
Last edited by DisarmGoliath at Aug 3, 2011,
#30
Quote by DisarmGoliath
^ Well, that and the fact that you can save a lot of CPU


Yea I got lazy and didnt do it and ended up using 93% of 3.4ghz quad core CPU on a new song. It takes 8 hrs for it to mixdown lol

Note there are a ton of vsts and vstis on the track but doing send and retrn could have helped a ton efficiency wise.