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#1
i see alot of my friend who play guitar for 3-5 years and all they do i learn songs from tab, they dont know music theory, there not fimliar with some of the techniques i taught them and i feel like im teaching them more, then there teaching me, which gets to my point. these guys turned me off from learning songs, cause it seems like it you learn nothing expect having a new finger exerise.

and everytime i do attempt to learn a song, i always think am i learning somthing from this? and then i stop learning, The only song i Fully learned was Black Sabbath, and even now i forget, cause ive been to busy learning new techniques and stuff, so once again i felt like i learned nothing.

i mean its all about having fun in the end, but enjoying have fun when i learn somthing new and can teach , anyone else feel like this?


EDIT: im currently actually learning dee but its only to help with my finger picking and thats it
Last edited by harvestkingx at Jul 30, 2011,
#4
nah its not WEIRD but obviously you have different goals than they do thye just want to learn other peoples stuff

i havent learned any song in ages to learn anything but the song itself(guitar wise)
usually i learn a song because i like it and would like to be able to play it
#6
I'm in the same boat. I don't really enjoy learning songs by others. I've been writing my own stuff pretty much since I picked up a guitar.
#9
I find learning other people's songs can occasionally help me write songs of my own. I'll hear something cool, learn how to play it, and then emulate the style while writing the parts myself.
#10
Ye i used to learn songs, now i just make my own.

If i do want to learn a song i'd probably just do it by ear (to give myself a challenge), i recently worked out some of the guitar part for 'Nature Boy' by Primus.

It sucks working with people who only learn to play songs and don't make their own. you'll be in the middle of one of your songs, then they'll suddenly break out into 'teen spirit', or something like that, and i'll just think to myself 'WTF?!?'

The music theory thing that somebody pointed out is probably a big factor, someone even posted a little thread about the merits of learning theory recently.
The people know how to play the songs and enjoy playing it, but they don't know how the song is made or why it sounds like it does.
#11
I rarely learn other peoples songs any more. I mainly just write my own stuff.
When I do learn stuff though it's normally because I want to try to understand the song better so I can apply some parts of it to my own writing.
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#13
im actually kind of relieved people think like me, i thought it was werid cause people expect good guitar players to play other people songs, i mean when i say i cant, they think i suck lol
Last edited by harvestkingx at Jul 31, 2011,
#14
i mainly play my own stuff,its more fun and easier to do,well for me anyway,good luck,i dont see the point in learning just covers all your life
#15
So do you just play your own music that you write?

Or do you literally just practice?
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#16
Quote by harvestkingx
im actually kind of relieved people think like me, i thought it was werid cause people expect good guitar players to play other people songs, i mean when i say i cant, they think i suck lol


Well good guitar players can play other peoples songs. They can play their own songs too. If all you're left with is random riffs and introductions to random songs, well perhaps you should question where you're going with the guitar. If it's not to play songs, it's definately not a goal of yours for your music to be heard by other people, or join a band yeah?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#17
Learning other people's songs is a great exercise for both your fingers and your theory. It's useful as a musician to be able to analyze songs and work out why they sound like they do.
E:-6
B:-0
G:-5
D:-6
A:-0
E:-3
#18
sorry i should of said in the begining is that i like making my own music, and i do pratice techniques 2 , i just dont like playing other people songs and if i do ill do my own version of that song, I;E: randy rhoads version of paranoid wasn't excalty like tony iommis,it had diffferent licks , different solo and a different sound, it just had the same beat with the riffs.

or better yet, zakk wyldes version of crazy train lol
Last edited by harvestkingx at Jul 31, 2011,
#19
Quote by harvestkingx
sorry i should of said in the begining is that i like making my own music, and i do pratice techniques 2 , i just dont like playing other people songs and if i do ill do my own version of that song, I;E: randy rhoads version of paranoid wasn't excalty like tony iommis,it had diffferent licks , different solo and a different sound, it just had the same beat with the riffs.

or better yet, zakk wyldes version of crazy train lol


So your actual "problem" is that you like putting your own styles on songs. That doesn't seem to be a problem to me.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#20
I do not learn any song that i am not motivated to learn. The most songs i learn now adays its all by ear and just little solos and chord progressions. But for the most part i just enjoy playing and practicing. working on my own stuff.
#21
I learned Cemetery Gates because I love the arpeggios. When I first learned it, the only thing I did for a week was play it over and over and over and over, I just loved it. But there are other times when I won't learn anything for weeks, I'll just come up with riffs and chord voicings.
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#22
It's not weird :/

I find that most of the time, I'm just fiddling on the fretboard with riffs rather than learn songs MOST of the time.
I really like listening and learning about theory in general

The other times, I will be learning a song if I'm motivated.
#23
Sounds like you're a left brainer. Right brained people tend to be content without learning theory and just jamming by ear, which is fine, but seems completely unnatural and unfathomable to us analytical left brains.

In my opinion you're going to get the most enjoyment out of what you've invested the most time in. If you love theory you'll love to improvise and create using what you understand.

Just keep learning the way it comes naturally and you can't go wrong!
"Without music life would be a mistake." -Friedrich Nietzsche
#24
I think you should do both. Learn other peoples and write you're own, then you'll think more outside of the box.
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#25
with the mindset i got from u from the first post, i'd say the only purpose you could have in learning a song is if you like a song and want to emulate its sound and have no idea how, then you can learn it to analyze what you like about it. other than that, we are exactly the same way.
#26
Learning songs does NOT make you a better guitar player. The only thing it CAN do (if you do it right) is improve your technique, or a certain skill. You would just need to learn a small piece of that song if you want to do that.

Otherwise, you're just mindlessly playing stuff... if you don't know what it means, it's just like another mindless exercise.

Sure, it's fun to hear yourself playing cool songs that you know, but if your goal is to write your own music, or jam with your friends, or become a professional musician... learning songs won't cut it.

Have you tried jamming with a friend? If you guys don't know the same songs, what do you do?

Learning, and applying music theory is good. But it's even MORE helpful to do ear training. That will open up your ear, and even if you don't know theory (which you will anyway, because ear training is half music theory) you will be able to write songs WAYYY better, AND improvise much better.

Technique isn't too important either... As long as you can play cleanly at a slow speed, it sounds better than someone that shreds but sounds horrible.

All in all, EAR TRAINING is by FAR the most valuable asset any musician could ever wish for. We are, after all, dealing with MUSIC, right?

Check out my teacher's online lessons. I used to be frustrated because I would learn songs and not get anywhere... Now, I feel way more confident with my guitar playing.

http://tomhess.net/CorrespondenceGuitarLessons.aspx
#27
Quote by maltmn
Learning songs does NOT make you a better guitar player. The only thing it CAN do (if you do it right) is improve your technique, or a certain skill. You would just need to learn a small piece of that song if you want to do that.

......

Technique isn't too important either... As long as you can play cleanly at a slow speed, it sounds better than someone that shreds but sounds horrible.


So Tom Hess encourages you both to ignore music and technique? Wow he must be really good! You must know like 100 little riffs by now!
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#28
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying..

Technique is definitely a significant part of his lesson strategy for me, because one of my goals is to play 1000 notes per minute. HOWEVER, it's by no means the most important, or even a very big part of playing good music. It is helpful, but it's not necessary.

I don't understand what you mean by ignoring music?

The riffs I know I either create in the spur of the moment, or I have created and remembered in the past... He empowered me with the ability to create my own music at will, rather than to copy other guitar player's sounds...

Also, Guitar Hero did help!!! XD It's hand-eye coordination, as well as timing and 2-hand synchronization xD

Sorry if we don't agree here, but I am with you on half of what you say: technique is important, ONLY if it's important to you and what your goals are...

It doesn't seem that technique is one of this guy's goals... Songwriting is his goals, so he should focus on music theory and Ear Training...
#29
Do you think that it's bad that I know my letters of the alphabet, but don't want to learn to read or write, so that when I communicate with others, I can do so in a way that makes no sense to them?

Here, let me put this question to you all in a better way, using the style and my own language I have come up with...it's my own made words because I don't like to be like everyone else and that's why I don't read, or have learned to spell anyone else's words:

fut dgfj w mvdj qafse xjgkel ieyrn sd oy fhdf lgtshdfy???

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Aug 4, 2011,
#30
I don't need to say any more about Guitar Hero. I have been playing guitar for over 10 years now, and gig nearly weekly. I suck at that game, and it doesn't feel like a guitar to me.

As for goals with guitar, one can assume that the creation of music is one of those goals - it's what the guitar does. To that end, if you work on your technique, you'll get better playing the music. So you can assume that for everybody technique is a required part of their "goals".

Some people don't want to learn full songs, and after about 4 years of that they come to this forum and tell us that they're disappointed and people tell them they suck. That's cool, but just an insight as to where that path leads.

Some people want to write their own songs, and then they say "I can only play little parts of songs but can't put them together". We then ask how many full songs they can play and they say zero. You have to learn from other people and how they put the songs together before you can do it yourself.

So if you wanted to be a singer/songwriter/guitarist your best bet would be:

- Work on technique
- Learn covers
- Use knowledge to put songs together

But if Tom Hess says that this is not the path, so be it.


As for playing 1000 notes a minute, that's great. But it won't make you any better of a guitarist. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8Wbb8r8PUs
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#31
Quote by Sean0913
fut dgfj w mvdj qafse xjgkel ieyrn sd oy fhdf lgtshdfy???


This.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#32
Well, that may work for some people. Definitely it helps to analyze music and songs written by other players, but analyzing music is different than learning music.

I have learned a single song by my favorite artist... all other songs I can play along with by jamming.

I've written a few songs, and can play ALL of them!

what does this mean?

I don't want to get into an argument about this, but do you earn money by playing gigs? Do you tour the world? Have you sold records that reach the top charts?

Tom Hess has done every one of those things.


My friend gigs every weekend, but doesn't make any money doing it... He writes his own songs, but doesn't practice technique... what does that mean?

When I ask him to play my songs, he can't. When I ask him to learn a song that involves lead guitar playing, he can't... But yet, he learns songs, learns covers, writes songs, and jams with other people...

He's in 2 bands (as their drummer) and when he plays guitar, he plays rhythm because he doesn't know his music theory, and doesn't have any ear training...

I study music theory and ear training every day, and my music has gotten 10x better because of it...

I'm not saying either course of action is better. It only depends on what your goals are. My goals require music theory, ear training, technique, rhythm guitar, and all sorts of other skills... that's why I practice it, and because I practice them all, I also know the effects of what they will do for you, and that is why I recommend ear training and music theory for this particular situation.

It seems obvious that he doesn't want to learn songs, so I don't think that would be the best thing for him to do...

The path you took works for you, but I can't really say anything about that, because your goals are different than his!
Last edited by maltmn at Aug 4, 2011,
#33
Quote by Sean0913
fut dgfj w mvdj qafse xjgkel ieyrn sd oy fhdf lgtshdfy???


This reminds me of that study they did where you can read any word as long as the first and last letter is the same.

Ctas, Dgos, Mcie, are all eemneis.

You can probably read that with little to no trouble. But I digress.


It's not weird to not enjoy to play other people's music. I personally don't care either way. I like making my own music and I like playing other peoples music. Simple as that.
#34
Quote by maltmn
Well, that may work for some people. Definitely it helps to analyze music and songs written by other players, but analyzing music is different than learning music.

I have learned a single song by my favorite artist... all other songs I can play along with by jamming.

I've written a few songs, and can play ALL of them!

what does this mean?

I don't want to get into an argument about this, but do you earn money by playing gigs? Do you tour the world? Have you sold records that reach the top charts?

Tom Hess has done every one of those things.


My friend gigs every weekend, but doesn't make any money doing it... He writes his own songs, but doesn't practice technique... what does that mean?

When I ask him to play my songs, he can't. When I ask him to learn a song that involves lead guitar playing, he can't... But yet, he learns songs, learns covers, writes songs, and jams with other people...

He's in 2 bands (as their drummer) and when he plays guitar, he plays rhythm because he doesn't know his music theory, and doesn't have any ear training...

I study music theory and ear training every day, and my music has gotten 10x better because of it...

I'm not saying either course of action is better. It only depends on what your goals are. My goals require music theory, ear training, technique, rhythm guitar, and all sorts of other skills... that's why I practice it, and because I practice them all, I also know the effects of what they will do for you, and that is why I recommend ear training and music theory for this particular situation.

It seems obvious that he doesn't want to learn songs, so I don't think that would be the best thing for him to do...

The path you took works for you, but I can't really say anything about that, because your goals are different than his!


I do make money from music, I get paid to play guitar for different artists. However it's not my day job so touring excessively is out of the question, coupled with the lack of general requirements such as a music degree to crack into the session guitarist world.

However I am regarded as one of the better guitarists on the Canberra circuit, and for a city of 500,000 I'm quite pleased with that recognition.

I also like poking fun as the students of Tom Hess, they're quite a devoted bunch.

As for being able to jam over a song, that means you can find the key of a song and randomly solo over it. You are probably quite limited with your rhythm skills as a result. On your music, you are soloing over midi files so I wouldn't be able to tell whether you could play chords.

If you still doubt the value of learning songs, consider what would occur if Tom Hess showed up for a tour and didn't know the songs.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#36
Yes, AlanHB, I agree with you, that Tom Hess, is a brilliant marketer, I'll give him that. He's parlayed his minor success with his HeavenHell and used his pedigree to convice enough people out there that he's more or less a guru.

It's a case of the Emperors New Clothes in my opinion.

Best,

Sean
#37
Quote by maltmn

I don't want to get into an argument about this, but do you earn money by playing gigs? Do you tour the world? Have you sold records that reach the top charts?

Tom Hess has done every one of those things.



Indeed.

Problem is, none of those things are indicative of teaching ability.

You are using a version of argumentum ad verecundiam, an argument from authority, and using it in textbook fashion, since the veracity of the initial claims in no way affects the truthfulness of your inference.
#38
Quote by Arby911
Indeed.

Problem is, none of those things are indicative of teaching ability.

You are using a version of argumentum ad verecundiam, an argument from authority, and using it in textbook fashion, since the veracity of the initial claims in no way affects the truthfulness of your inference.


...why do we not get along?
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#39
Quote by Arby911
You are using a version of argumentum ad verecundiam, an argument from authority, and using it in textbook fashion, since the veracity of the initial claims in no way affects the truthfulness of your inference.


Excellent. You even used the Latin name.

Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#40
Why does it matter if one likes to play songs or not, we all play music because we enjoy to do so, don't we? Playing guitar is not a race to be the best....
Last edited by ZoaL at Aug 5, 2011,
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