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#1
Hey all.
So the title says it all.
I got told to see the bigger picture then one section of a song is being mixolydian, while the big picture wasn't mixolydian just tonal with an accidental in some sections.
But how would I see the big picture in like a piece from a jazz players.
As far as I know jazz players modulate alot.
So how would I see the big picture then?
#2
Modulation is a lot different than "this section has hints of Mixolydian".

But it doesn't really matter how you look at it. I look at it as each section comes, but there's usually a "parent key" that it returns to. Like if the song starts in C and then goes through the Circle of Fifths/Fourths (or just modulating "randomly"), often times it will come back around to C as the song concludes to make it feel like it's really resolved.

Maybe that's what they're talking about?
#3
Are you sure the sharpened 4th wasn't just an accidental?
Woffelz

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#4
Quote by Woffelz
Are you sure the sharpened 4th wasn't just an accidental?

MIXOlydian, b7, and he said it was actually the major scale just with the b7 thrown in at some sections.

if the entire song is in the key of C (easy example) with the b7 Bb thrown in at some places, if you're planning on soloing over the whole song, you just use the Cmajor scale the whole time and maybe throw it that b7 in the places you see it. just be smooth.

modulation means a key change. listen to diminished.
#5
Quote by TMVATDI
MIXOlydian, b7, and he said it was actually the major scale just with the b7 thrown in at some sections.

if the entire song is in the key of C (easy example) with the b7 Bb thrown in at some places, if you're planning on soloing over the whole song, you just use the Cmajor scale the whole time and maybe throw it that b7 in the places you see it. just be smooth.

modulation means a key change. listen to diminished.

Listen to David Lee Roth's going crazy Solo.
You'll notice that it's a I bVII progression.
Or if it's not modal V IV progression.
But that whole song is in the key of G major because it has another section that is in G I believe.
But it was an example of people telling me to see the big picture.
#6
Quote by liampje
Hey all.
So the title says it all.
I got told to see the bigger picture then one section of a song is being mixolydian, while the big picture wasn't mixolydian just tonal with an accidental in some sections.
But how would I see the big picture in like a piece from a jazz players.
As far as I know jazz players modulate alot.
So how would I see the big picture then?


Learn to see the fundamental picture 1st.

If you can't hear where the tonic is in a simple song like that one by poison, seriously focus on that 1st.
shred is gaudy music
#7
Oops I got lydian and mixolydian confused.
I'm gonna wait here for people to flame me.
Woffelz

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#8
I'm more of a classical musician than a jazz musician (although I have played in numerous jazz groups) and from my classical knowledge when it 'modulates a lot' in a small amount of time we, well I and other composers/orchestrators I know, refer to them as 'passing keys' and are not considered modulations.

One example would be a famous extract from Prince Igor, it is in the key of Bb major and the chord sequence is as follows "Bb, Bbm, Am, C# diminished, Dm, A, Bb, D7, F, Am....." Write out the individual notes in those chords and apply it to Bb major and you'l find A LOT of accidentals. Well I've talked for a while to make a small point, sometimes what seems like numerous modulations in a small amount of time is called 'passing keys' and are not refered to as modulations. You can still solo over the top in the original key.
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#9
Quote by liampje
Listen to David Lee Roth's going crazy Solo.
You'll notice that it's a I bVII progression.
Or if it's not modal V IV progression.
But that whole song is in the key of G major because it has another section that is in G I believe.
But it was an example of people telling me to see the big picture.

you have a very corny taste in music man...

but yeah there is absolutely no modulation in this song. a modulation is when the key changes. it seems to all be in Dmajor, with frequent use of the b7. since none of the music you listens to follows the strict, limiting rules of modal theory, but almost every song i've heard u listen to uses some sort of b7 or #4 or something where you would think "mode," just call it "Dmajor with a b7" instead of "Dmixolydian," think in those terms. it will also help you with knowing what notes the song makes frequent use of...many may think a song is in Adorian, for example, and then not have it memorized that it has a natural 6. so they could instead say "Aminor with a natural 6." the song probably wouldn't follow modal rules to technically be in Adorian anyway.

so the song "going crazy" is in Dmajor but uses a b7. there was some quick flashy junk goin on in the solo, maybe there was a quick modulation or 2, i'm not taking the time to analyze it.
#10
Quote by TMVATDI
you have a very corny taste in music man...

but yeah there is absolutely no modulation in this song. a modulation is when the key changes. it seems to all be in Dmajor, with frequent use of the b7. since none of the music you listens to follows the strict, limiting rules of modal theory, but almost every song i've heard u listen to uses some sort of b7 or #4 or something where you would think "mode," just call it "Dmajor with a b7" instead of "Dmixolydian," think in those terms. it will also help you with knowing what notes the song makes frequent use of...many may think a song is in Adorian, for example, and then not have it memorized that it has a natural 6. so they could instead say "Aminor with a natural 6." the song probably wouldn't follow modal rules to technically be in Adorian anyway.

so the song "going crazy" is in Dmajor but uses a b7. there was some quick flashy junk goin on in the solo, maybe there was a quick modulation or 2, i'm not taking the time to analyze it.

I know what accidentals modal scales have.
Dorian major sixth
Phrygian minor second
Lydian augumented 4th
Mixolydian Dominant seventh
And Locrian which is no major or minor I call it the diminished scale but I thunj there already is another scale called the diminished scale.
#11
Quote by liampje
I know what accidentals modal scales have.
Dorian major sixth
Phrygian minor second
Lydian augumented 4th
Mixolydian Dominant seventh
And Locrian which is no major or minor I call it the diminished scale but I thunj there already is another scale called the diminished scale.

There sure is. Diminished scale is a very different thing. It's a scale where each note ascends in alternating intervals of a whole step or a half step. That said it's an octatonic scale. For example: E♭ diminished (F♯/G♭, A, C diminished): E♭, F, F♯, G♯, A, B, C, D, E♭. Common in jazz. Didn't take long to find out with Wikipedia
E:-6
B:-0
G:-5
D:-6
A:-0
E:-3
#12
the bVII is likely just borrowed from the parallel minor as a dominant chord. bVII - I is just a dominant - tonic alteration. It could also be a IV - V (as you said) if it returns to the tonic in a later section. The real deal is that the b7 interval is used often in Rock/Blues/Metal/Funk music. bVI - bVII - I and the IV - bVII - I are very common Rock progressions in Major keys, both borrowed from parallel minor.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#13
Some of the most difficult tunes can be broken down to a foundation of Major and Minor tonalities from the Tonic. Modern jazz, like Modal Jazz or even Fusion, is some cases can be simplified with this concept. But Jazz as in traditional jazz would be viewed differently.

Even though jazz has a Key the song it written in the base vehicle of "standards" in jazz is stringing a bunch of ii-V's and ii-V-I's together modulating to the new Key, or the temporary Key. But all the modulations relate to each new temporary Key as well as the original Tonic Key.

The thing that jazz teaches us is that you can play TO the new modulated Key, or perspective, by exploiting the the V7 of the new temporary Key. The V7 makes the modulation stronger or simply makes it all make sense and sound correct.

Managing a V7 based on a Key change it the very first thing you'd want to learn regarding modulation.

I can show tons of examples of simplifying common and not so common Modern Jazz tunes/progressions into simple Major and Minor tonalities from a Tonic. And I can show you a ton of examples of how important the V7 is in modulation. And I can show many cases where both ideas are used. Just say the word.
#15
Quote by liampje
I know what accidentals modal scales have.
Dorian major sixth
Phrygian minor second
Lydian augumented 4th
Mixolydian Dominant seventh
And Locrian which is no major or minor I call it the diminished scale but I thunj there already is another scale called the diminished scale.

a scale is considered a "minor" one when it has a b3 (and a b7? confirm that for me). a scale is considered major if it has a major 3. if it has a b3 and b5 its considered a diminished scale.

when you say "THE diminished scale" or "THE major scale" its different. THE diminished scale...well there's actually 2, the "half-whole" diminished, which is just "hWhWhW..." ect., and the "whole-half" which is the reverse, "WhWh..." there's not a whole lot of good MUSICAL music that would use diminished,

but don't think of things with modes. its pointless. going crazy isn't modal.
#16
Quote by TMVATDI
(and a b7? confirm that for me)


Nope, just a b3. Harmonic and melodic minor both have a major 7th.

Quote by TMVATDI
when you say "THE diminished scale" or "THE major scale" its different. THE diminished scale...well there's actually 2, the "half-whole" diminished, which is just "hWhWhW..." ect., and the "whole-half" which is the reverse, "WhWh..." there's not a whole lot of good MUSICAL music that would use diminished,



They were used in the late 19th and 20th centuries by the likes of Liszt, Korsakov, Debussy, Stravinsky. It's used fairly often in jazz over dominant chords too. Pretty musical if you ask me.
#17
Quote by griffRG7321
They were used in the late 19th and 20th centuries by the likes of Liszt, Korsakov, Debussy, Stravinsky. It's used fairly often in jazz over dominant chords too. Pretty musical if you ask me.

+1, they're really common in classical and jazz and certain species of metal.
E:-6
B:-0
G:-5
D:-6
A:-0
E:-3
#18
Quote by griffRG7321
Nope, just a b3. Harmonic and melodic minor both have a major 7th.


They were used in the late 19th and 20th centuries by the likes of Liszt, Korsakov, Debussy, Stravinsky. It's used fairly often in jazz over dominant chords too. Pretty musical if you ask me.

haha when i wrote that i hadn't eaten or slept much in a couple days and was like "derr arent harmonic and melodic minor 'minor/major' scales?" xD

okay, well there are exceptions about the diminished scales, but i don't want liampje trying to use them yet, it'll just turn out tasteless shred.
#19
Quote by TMVATDI
haha when i wrote that i hadn't eaten or slept much in a couple days and was like "derr arent harmonic and melodic minor 'minor/major' scales?" xD

okay, well there are exceptions about the diminished scales, but i don't want liampje trying to use them yet, it'll just turn out tasteless shred.

I can't shred .
But what do you mean with a corny taste of music?
#20
Quote by liampje
I can't shred .
But what do you mean with a corny taste of music?

ah a few posts ago? i was just mostly joking you can like whatever music you want its your opinion but i noticed you've sent a lot of videos that are just really sex-orientated 80s metal yaknow? or just cheesey in some way or another. i mean i love vai but most of the guys you listen to seem to be just great guitarists playing over cheesey songs.
#21
Eat 'Em and Smile is a killer record!
Quote by AlanHB
It's the same as all other harmony. Surround yourself with skulls and candles if it helps.
#22
Quote by liampje
Listen to David Lee Roth's going crazy Solo.
You'll notice that it's a I bVII progression.
Or if it's not modal V IV progression.
But that whole song is in the key of G major because it has another section that is in G I believe.
But it was an example of people telling me to see the big picture.


We've already talked about that song. I took it apart for you. There's no modulation, no modes. It's in D major.

Here's your original thread https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1447792&page=1&pp=20

Have another read.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#23
Quote by AlanHB
We've already talked about that song. I took it apart for you. There's no modulation, no modes. It's in D major.




This is what you're doing. This is what it's like talking to liam...
#25
What people say:

"Ignore modes, you lack the basic foundations of music theory knowledge. Before you can attempt intermediate topics you need to fully understand the basics"

What Liampje hears :

Herp a Derp Derp learn modes ololol learn to play over crazy modulating sequences derp
#26
Quote by TMVATDI
ah a few posts ago? i was just mostly joking you can like whatever music you want its your opinion but i noticed you've sent a lot of videos that are just really sex-orientated 80s metal yaknow? or just cheesey in some way or another. i mean i love vai but most of the guys you listen to seem to be just great guitarists playing over cheesey songs.

I mean what do you mean with corny.
And what does cheesey mea?
Yes I love 80's metal,also like classic rock such as AC/DC and Kiss (Kiss made me play guitar).
#27
Quote by griffRG7321
What people say:

"Ignore modes, you lack the basic foundations of music theory knowledge. Before you can attempt intermediate topics you need to fully understand the basics"

What Liampje hears :

Herp a Derp Derp learn modes ololol learn to play over crazy modulating sequences derp

I ordered your book.
#30
Good thread guys! Let's have the same conversation here in a week or so.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#31
Quote by AlanHB
Good thread guys! Let's have the same conversation here in a week or so.


i think about a third of my psychological problems are due to this.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#32
Quote by liampje
I mean what do you mean with corny.
And what does cheesey mea?
Yes I love 80's metal,also like classic rock such as AC/DC and Kiss (Kiss made me play guitar).

is english not your first language? when people refer to a song, movie, book, ect. as "cheesey" or "corny" they mean that it looks kind of ridiculous and silly. idk...can anybody else explain that for me?

and i feel like there are comunication issues here. you guys keep saying "its not time for modes, fix your foundation" and he's thinking "why not, how do i do that?" he's not just gonna trust you saying "there's nothing special about modes" unless you explain modes to him and prove it, and he's not going to fix his foundation unless you tell him exactly what's wrong with it and exactly how to fix it. and you're explanations fly over his head because he doesn't know what the hell you're saying because he doesn't have a good foundation in music theory, its a disappointing cycle...do you guys know what i mean?
#33
Quote by TMVATDI
and you're explanations fly over his head because he doesn't know what the hell you're saying because he doesn't have a good foundation in music theory, its a disappointing cycle...do you guys know what i mean?


No you're taking too much pity on this. Lljampe wants to jump in at the deep end. We say learn to swim first. He says ok. Then he jumps in the deep end and calls out for help. He says what are all these crazy things! I'm dying! We say "swim back, you're not ready!". He goes ok, and stays in the same place to figure it out himself. He later shouts out what are all these crazy things! I'm dying!" We say "swim, back you're not ready!" He goes ok, and stays in the same place to figure it out himself etc.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#34
Quote by AlanHB
No you're taking too much pity on this. Lljampe wants to jump in at the deep end. We say learn to swim first. He says ok. Then he jumps in the deep end and calls out for help. He says what are all these crazy things! I'm dying! We say "swim back, you're not ready!". He goes ok, and stays in the same place to figure it out himself. He later shouts out what are all these crazy things! I'm dying!" We say "swim, back you're not ready!" He goes ok, and stays in the same place to figure it out himself etc.

he doesn't understand what counts as the "basics" and what counts as "advanced," he doesn't know what the deep end is, he's not sure when he has the basics or not, every week he thinks he's made himself ready for passing the basics, come on he's young and english isn't even his first language a lot of these conversations obviously don't make a lot of sense to him. he's not jumping into the deep end on purpose, he doesn't have a good teacher, he has to learn from books, and the sad truth is there is no accurate, easily found, easy to understand book on music theory out there, i pity him because i'm the same way, let's say i asked a question on counterpoint, you'd say "what? this isn't making any sense. go back and learn counterpoint from the beginning." i'd say "ok..." and then go back to the same crappy source i used in the first place, thinking "is alan sure this is wrong?" you need to recommend a way to LEARN the basics, you can't just yel "lear the basics" over and over again, ESPECIALLY to someone his age, tweens and young teens don't know shit about communication!
Last edited by TMVATDI at Aug 4, 2011,
#35
Perhaps you can send him wherever you went TMVADI, considering you had to be deconstructed yourself.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#36
Quote by AlanHB
Perhaps you can send him wherever you went TMVADI, considering you had to be deconstructed yourself.

I went here, and took much longer to learn than I should have. I had to ask a question about each detail one at a time for you guys to answer one at a time so I could eventually piece it together and know what I know now about music theory, when all it would really take is 1 reliable source that could teach me starting from scratch again. Nobody gave me that source, nobody's giving him that source, I find it sad because it probably exists somewhere and nobody bothers to reveal it. Out of the ENTIRE internet and hundreds or thousands of books published on the subject, there's nowhere to go for a proper education on music theory? We can't all afford good lessons you know.
#37
My teacher took me to ''the deep end''.
He thought I should learn modes (not the scale shapes modes) when I asked him how to play in the style of Joe Satriani.
I think it's not his fault, I was the one who asked and I think he didn't have a good start, I don't know that for sure.
But I'm starting to swim back, I wrote a metal piece in F harmonic minor, not phrygian dominant or something, F harmonic minor.
And @ TMVATDI English is not my primary language.
But didn't you figure that out already?
Everyone else here noticed it.
#38
I think you're from The Netherlands?

It's besides the point. It most likely is your teachers fault, he probably learnt off flawed information on the internet too. Hopefully you're no longer taking lessons with him.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#39
Quote by AlanHB
I think you're from The Netherlands?

It's besides the point. It most likely is your teachers fault, he probably learnt off flawed information on the internet too. Hopefully you're no longer taking lessons with him.

I am but no more theory.
I discuss techniques with him.
ANd my teacher is like 40 so no internet when he learned.
He has got a degree in jazz.
I might step onto another teacher though.
And how the **** do you know I'm from there, my youtube channel?
#40
Quote by liampje
And how the **** do you know I'm from there, my youtube channel?


I recall you apologized for a link being in Dutch earlier... .
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
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