#1
I think awhile ago I realized how a lot of stuff is written. I always wondered how jams like machine gun by hendrix worked, and other, similar jams that dont sit on strumming a chord progression for rhythm.

Im wondering if, essentially whats happening is that instead of changing between chords its improv based off the scales that the said chords that would be being strummed in the background are built off of.

say you have a chord progress ( G C D for the sake of simplicity, all major), would you just be comping in G Major then C Major then D major (or any other scale that worked really), and not straight up playing the scale but using it as a tonal center for a melody/rhythm?

because I think thats whats going on (I realize you also probably SHOULD be doing that over a static strummed chord progression as well, even though you can get away with noodling in one scale sort of amatureishly that way).
Gear:

Jackson dk2m
MIM strat
peavey jsx 2x12 combo
Recording King RDC-26
Digitch RP1000
Crybaby 535Q
#3
if you don't hear the chord "played" then it is "implied." in hendrix stuff its probably the bass player playing a lot of chord tones. in jazz stuff you might hear the chord tones played on the downbeats by the lead soloist. the chord is still there, you just don't hear it obviously flat-out played.

edit: for that chord progression you mentioned you'd probly stay in the Gmajor scale the whole time. hendrix, however, would use the blues scale, as he almost always does.
Last edited by TMVATDI at Aug 6, 2011,
#4
edit: the GCD is just an example, I realize its mega simple and in that situation simplicity is king. Im just trying to figure out if what im thinking as any accuracy as far as theory goes, as its too late for me to mess around with my instruments now and not get evicted to find out myself lol.

well really, Im just trying to figure out how some more complex stuff is done so instead of just jamming around I could improvise over a backing track or with a band and get the same general effect out of it. I feel like just screwing around in G major gets kind of bland and simple at times, especially if I were to say try to play a whole rhythm working ONLY around G major.

I mean, what I guess Im trying to work on here is comping more than anything, so I can embellish on things better and often stop just strumming straight single chords and doing simple changes to them.

lets say im in a jazz jam and I wanted to be authentic and slick to the style. Using the same example (I mean, I realize a lot of jazz wont be GCD but for the sake of example...), if I have four bars of G, I could either fill them with ONLY G major or I could use several types of G chords leading up to the C and do the same with that until D.

And in rock, Im assuming its pretty much the same thing, just not always as chord intensive, using more single notes, double stops, partials (dischords?), etc. (same applys for any style of music, I realize that, nothing is style specific in terms of theory ik, but what im getting at is generally it will be done more simply than it would in jazz because of the complexity of jazz)

see, if Im getting an accurate picture of how this fits together I feel like I could really apply learning scales to a whole other level. I feel like if Im just gonna mess around in one scale all the time for everything it gets super old (even though it does have its uses in some places and in some tunes), but I could use it to add spice to chord progressions as well.

honestly I feel like if Im gonna do the whole 1 scale around everything root all I need to do is by ear find the root note, come up with a melody in my head and play it. often I dont even need to bother thinking too much about theory for that.

I feel like you can do way more cool stuff not staying in a simple box like that, but again I realize it has huge effectiveness in some areas and am in no way bashing that method at all, just trying to learn more about music.


edit:

and I feel like even if its straight up just the blues scale, I feel like often you can take that and play the same blues scale the same way, playing it around the tonal center of the first chord, second, third, etc in the progression. obviously the tonal center is changing where the chords would in some pieces, otherwise youd be able to play it straight out of one pattern on the whole neck.
Gear:

Jackson dk2m
MIM strat
peavey jsx 2x12 combo
Recording King RDC-26
Digitch RP1000
Crybaby 535Q
Last edited by spiroth10 at Aug 6, 2011,
#5
Quote by spiroth10
edit: the GCD is just an example, I realize its mega simple and in that situation simplicity is king. Im just trying to figure out if what im thinking as any accuracy as far as theory goes, as its too late for me to mess around with my instruments now and not get evicted to find out myself lol.

well really, Im just trying to figure out how some more complex stuff is done so instead of just jamming around I could improvise over a backing track or with a band and get the same general effect out of it. I feel like just screwing around in G major gets kind of bland and simple at times, especially if I were to say try to play a whole rhythm working ONLY around G major.

I mean, what I guess Im trying to work on here is comping more than anything, so I can embellish on things better and often stop just strumming straight single chords and doing simple changes to them.

lets say im in a jazz jam and I wanted to be authentic and slick to the style. Using the same example (I mean, I realize a lot of jazz wont be GCD but for the sake of example...), if I have four bars of G, I could either fill them with ONLY G major or I could use several types of G chords leading up to the C and do the same with that until D.

And in rock, Im assuming its pretty much the same thing, just not always as chord intensive, using more single notes, double stops, partials (dischords?), etc. (same applys for any style of music, I realize that, nothing is style specific in terms of theory ik, but what im getting at is generally it will be done more simply than it would in jazz because of the complexity of jazz)

see, if Im getting an accurate picture of how this fits together I feel like I could really apply learning scales to a whole other level. I feel like if Im just gonna mess around in one scale all the time for everything it gets super old (even though it does have its uses in some places and in some tunes), but I could use it to add spice to chord progressions as well.

honestly I feel like if Im gonna do the whole 1 scale around everything root all I need to do is by ear find the root note, come up with a melody in my head and play it. often I dont even need to bother thinking too much about theory for that.

I feel like you can do way more cool stuff not staying in a simple box like that, but again I realize it has huge effectiveness in some areas and am in no way bashing that method at all, just trying to learn more about music.


edit:

and I feel like even if its straight up just the blues scale, I feel like often you can take that and play the same blues scale the same way, playing it around the tonal center of the first chord, second, third, etc in the progression. obviously the tonal center is changing where the chords would in some pieces, otherwise youd be able to play it straight out of one pattern on the whole neck.
oh u mean rhythm guitar? if ur jamming as a rhythm guitarist u can try out different voicings of the chord you're playing. listen to the lead soloist...try out some duel lead stuff maybe. it takes a lot of practice, i actually find soloing easier during these kind of jams. if u guys get REALLY tight together, u can try switching up the chord progression and even some key changes in the middle of the jam. easiest way to go about it is to change in 5ths or 4ths cuz then you only need to add 1 more sharp/flat, and the more you play in that key, the more the rest of the band will notice it and follow. maybe you can tell everyone "we're gonna change keys as soon as the soloist plays this lick" or "as soon as i stomp my foot" then everyone can play smoothly together.jams in which the chord progression stays the same and its just a soloist and a drummer spazzing out can get boring farely quickly, especially for the rhythm guitarist, so you should ask if you can change things up mid-jam.
#6
but are you really changing keys by following the chord progression on like that? your either embellishing it in the same key (by progressing from say Cm, Cm/maj7, cm7, cm6 onto a Bbm9 or whatever) if your playing rhythm in chords,

or if your trying to do either a rhythm lead/mashup, or just a straight lead, instead of staying in the scale of the root note, youd just be working around the scale that you would build the other chords from, and switching between the scales as the chords change.

the progression shouldnt matter, as your following it no matter what, im not suggesting changing key necessarily, just asking if it would be in key still pretty much.

lets say we have an I, VI, IV, V, I chord progression. for this I'll say its C Am F G C, but the notes dont matter because it should be the same in ANY key.

I was under the impression that in order to build the chords composing the progression, your have to take your root note, build the chord from that scale, take the VI note, go into that scale and build a chord, same for IV, and V. If you built chords out of the same scale youd have a very limited number of chords that would always be the same note, lets say if you stayed building chords in the C scale, youd never build a chord that wasnt a C chord.

what Im trying to figure out is how to use this in relation to both comping and soloing. Up until now I've taken a random feel based approach which has been hit or miss at best, but I know some theory so Im trying to apply it.

what Im thinking is that, since the chords are each built out of different scales, I could solo in C over the bars that C is the chord for, Am for the bars that Am is the chord for and etc etc. never straight playing a scale unless for some specific effect because Id rather try to work with melody lines and... real music as opposed to wanking straight up and down scales.

much the same way that in comping with chords it should be that im just working around a tonal center with chordwork until the amount of bars where the C is played is up and then Id work around the next tonal center in the progression.

As far as Im aware the key of a song is just its tonal center, leaving some leeway for what can be done with it improv wise with solos and comping, as well as writing music and composing, and flowing with the tonal center of the song should work as well as just sitting on whatever scale the root chord of the whole progression is based off of on a theory level, and should, in actuality, offer more possibilities than being boxed in one scale.

I began noticing this when I started learning a bunch of songs where the rhythm wasnt played strictly as strummed chords and I was trying to figure out how the original writer knew where the heck to be on the fret board. obviously there must be some relation to the chord progression, and then I realized it was improv AROUND the chord progression.

I mean, I suppose yes, you could look at it by memorizing every scale as a pattern down the neck, but wouldnt it be more efficient to work around the chords being played a lot of the time? that would give you definite start/end points that always work (dare I say always work tastefully?) by working around tonal centers, knowing the notes your playing to some degree by knowing which scale the chords are built off and playing around with that and a melody line that fits the rhythm.

I feel like thinking about it in relation to what chords are being played rather than one scale not only drastically increases the possibilities of what I can do (because otherwise, theres just one scale im boxed in forever).

I mean, I know im onto something here, even if im getting it a little wrong somewhere along the lines.
Gear:

Jackson dk2m
MIM strat
peavey jsx 2x12 combo
Recording King RDC-26
Digitch RP1000
Crybaby 535Q
Last edited by spiroth10 at Aug 6, 2011,