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#1
Hey all.

I really need to get forth and practice this.
I need to be able to actually hear the tonic in the song, so can anyone suggest me a non diatonic song that isn't that hard to figure out?
Because I keep struggling hearing that root.
Greetings, liampje.
EDIT:I mean where the song isn't completely matchable with a scale.
Doesn't diatonic mean that you stick withing those 7 notes strictly?
Last edited by liampje at Aug 6, 2011,
#4
Quote by Sean0913
What???

Best,

Sean

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#5
Are you able to figure out at least a few of the chords used in the song? You can figure it out based on the totality of the chords. Play each for a few bars and see what one sounds most natural for it to end on. Or just become familiar with the most commonly used chords and what tonic they revolve around. I mean, technically, if you can figure out the key, you can end the song on any one of those chords but if you're trying to figure out specific songs, knowing the chords that are used will help you to narrow it down.
#6
what the hell do you think "non-diatonic" means? an entire song can't be non-diatonic!
#7
Quote by TMVATDI
what the hell do you think "non-diatonic" means? an entire song can't be non-diatonic!



Why not? What do YOU think it means?
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#8
Quote by lpwjbklyn
Are you able to figure out at least a few of the chords used in the song? You can figure it out based on the totality of the chords. Play each for a few bars and see what one sounds most natural for it to end on. Or just become familiar with the most commonly used chords and what tonic they revolve around. I mean, technically, if you can figure out the key, you can end the song on any one of those chords but if you're trying to figure out specific songs, knowing the chords that are used will help you to narrow it down.

I know the chords.
It's
E5 E5M7 E5 E5 E5M7 D5 D5M7add9 Csus2 F5 F#5 G5 A5 A5 D5 D5M7 D5 D5 D5M7 B5 D5 D5M7 B5.
After that the song goes into some bass lines and lead guitar.
Just give it a listen.
It's Steve Vai - I would love to.
#9
Quote by Flibo


Why not? What do YOU think it means?

well...yeah if its like atonal or something then its literally "not diatonic" but...

usually when you say "non-diatonic" you mean something like a non-diatonic chord, a chord that isn't diatonic to the key you're in.
#10
Quote by liampje
Hey all.

I really need to get forth and practice this.
I need to be able to actually hear the tonic in the song, so can anyone suggest me a non diatonic song that isn't that hard to figure out?
Because I keep struggling hearing that root.
Greetings, liampje.
EDIT:I mean where the song isn't completely matchable with a scale.
Doesn't diatonic mean that you stick withing those 7 notes strictly?


This looks like a chat log with cleverbot.
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#11
Quote by vampirelazarus
This looks like a chat log with cleverbot.


Haha. It does.

To answer your question:

Non-diatonic is not a real thing. Non-diatonic means it does not relate to the scale. You mean atonal or chromatic. A lot of technical death metal is chromatic, as is a lot of jazz. Try searching "Atonal chromatic non-diatonic technical death metal jazz-core." You'll get the results you're looking for.
#12
a song isn't "diatonic" or "non-diatonic" based on how true it is to the scale. a chord that is not in the scale...for example if you're using the major scale and you use a bII chord...is called a "non-diatonic chord." that doesn't make the song "non-diatonic."
#13
Quote by TMVATDI
for example if you're using the major scale and you use a bII chord...is called a "non-diatonic chord." that doesn't make the song "non-diatonic."


while it's true that you wouldn't call a composition "diatonic" or "non-diatonic", keep in mind that if a non-diatonic chord were used, the composition could not be said to use diatonic harmony. even if it's only 1 bII.

edit: BOOYAH POST 2,500.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Aug 7, 2011,
#14
Quote by AeolianWolf
while it's true that you wouldn't call a composition "diatonic" or "non-diatonic", keep in mind that if a non-diatonic chord were used, the composition could not be said to use diatonic harmony. even if it's only 1 bII.


Or you could say that that one part is not using diatonic harmony, or you could go all out and say the song is chromatic. It's up to the listener to decide what to call things.
#16
Quote by carnagereap666
Or you could say that that one part is not using diatonic harmony, or you could go all out and say the song is chromatic. It's up to the listener to decide what to call things.


saying that a song is chromatic is just as ridiculous as saying it's diatonic (unless, of course, it's flight of the bumblebee or some such tune).

there IS such a thing as objectivity in music. if a song is in C major and an F minor chord is used, the song does not conform to diatonic harmony.
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#17
Quote by AeolianWolf
saying that a song is chromatic is just as ridiculous as saying it's diatonic (unless, of course, it's flight of the bumblebee or some such tune).

there IS such a thing as objectivity in music. if a song is in C major and an F minor chord is used, the song does not conform to diatonic harmony.

This.

In my opinion, the words "diatonic songs" and "Undiatonic songs" make no sense. Sure, I guess they could work, but there really is no such thing. Applying non diatonic notes are just the application of accidentals and such.

As for figuring out the tonal center when not having all diatonic notes, just try to hear where a song resolves. Say you have Abmaj Bbmaj Cmaj, you can hear that it "resolves" or feels home to C major. C maj Fmaj Fmin Cmaj, it still feels the home of Cmajor, they just contain accidentals. Practice listening with songs that use different chords like that. A lot of modern rock tends to use the bVII - I. That one song from Plain White teas, 1 2 3 4? or whatever its called, uses the IV iv I in it somewhere, I think the chorus.
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#18
Quote by Zinnie
This.

In my opinion, the words "diatonic songs" and "Undiatonic songs" make no sense. Sure, I guess they could work, but there really is no such thing. Applying non diatonic notes are just the application of accidentals and such.

As for figuring out the tonal center when not having all diatonic notes, just try to hear where a song resolves. Say you have Abmaj Bbmaj Cmaj, you can hear that it "resolves" or feels home to C major. C maj Fmaj Fmin Cmaj, it still feels the home of Cmajor, they just contain accidentals. Practice listening with songs that use different chords like that. A lot of modern rock tends to use the bVII - I. That one song from Plain White teas, 1 2 3 4? or whatever its called, uses the IV iv I in it somewhere, I think the chorus.

those were my thoughts put in better words than i could've :/ also aeolian's post this guy quoted
#19
Quote by AeolianWolf
saying that a song is chromatic is just as ridiculous as saying it's diatonic (unless, of course, it's flight of the bumblebee or some such tune).

there IS such a thing as objectivity in music. if a song is in C major and an F minor chord is used, the song does not conform to diatonic harmony.


It's ridiculous, but viable. Not the diatonic part, the chromatic part. Diatonic essentially means conforming to the scale. Calling a song non-diatonic is not correct usage of the term. If a song is atonal, you could say it is using the chromatic scale, or using accidentals, or there are a lot of enharmonic tones in it. It all means the same thing (essentially.)

How do you know the song isn't conforming to diatonic harmony? It could be just a verse that doesn't comply. Because one apple is rotten, does that mean all the apples in the basket are rotten?
#20
Ok but can anyone suggest me a song that uses chromatic harmony, which is easy to find the key center of.
I mean I listened to Steve Vai's I would love to and it's just nuts.
I think I hear a key change in the beginning when the csus2 chord comes in.
Or it's just the ballsines of the Csus2 chord.
In post #8 I posted the chord progression.
#21
Quote by carnagereap666
It's ridiculous, but viable. Not the diatonic part, the chromatic part. Diatonic essentially means conforming to the scale. Calling a song non-diatonic is not correct usage of the term. If a song is atonal, you could say it is using the chromatic scale, or using accidentals, or there are a lot of enharmonic tones in it. It all means the same thing (essentially.)

How do you know the song isn't conforming to diatonic harmony? It could be just a verse that doesn't comply. Because one apple is rotten, does that mean all the apples in the basket are rotten?

Saying that a song uses a chromatic scale is stupidly vague and nondescriptive. It's possible, but just useless.

Because one apple is rotten, there is one rotten apple in the basket which will ruin the taste of the whole pie. Not trying to bash non-diatonicness, just trying to relate to your analogy.
E:-6
B:-0
G:-5
D:-6
A:-0
E:-3
#22
Quote by Flibo
Saying that a song uses a chromatic scale is stupidly vague and nondescriptive. It's possible, but just useless.

Because one apple is rotten, there is one rotten apple in the basket which will ruin the taste of the whole pie. Not trying to bash non-diatonicness, just trying to relate to your analogy.


It will ruin the pie, but not the basket of apples. Let's say the basket of apples is a song. There are 8 apples. Each apple is a part of the song: Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Solo, Chorus, Outro. My solo is using non-diatonic notes. Is my entire song now not diatonically correct? Or just the solo? Is the basket rotten, or the apple?
#23
Quote by carnagereap666
It will ruin the pie, but not the basket of apples. Let's say the basket of apples is a song. There are 8 apples. Each apple is a part of the song: Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Solo, Chorus, Outro. My solo is using non-diatonic notes. Is my entire song now not diatonically correct? Or just the solo? Is the basket rotten, or the apple?

If we're examining your song as a whole, then it's not using strict diatonic harmony.

We shouldn't be arguing about this
E:-6
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A:-0
E:-3
#25
But....
Alot of people told me you need to see the big picture.
And the big picture isn't diatonic.
So why would you take 1 section of a song and analyse that one apart from the rest?
The Goin' Crazy solo is mixolydian if the solo was the complete song.
But I got told and it's true that the song is in D major not mixolydian.
If 1 part is different from the rest the whole song is different.
EDIT:My thoughts: It's ok to divide it into sections AFTER you analysed the big picture, then you can say hey this part uses a non diatonic chord so actually the rest is diatonic.
Sean once said something like:''I can use 13 chords in triad IC form because I see the big picture.''
Last edited by liampje at Aug 7, 2011,
#26
Quote by liampje
But....
Alot of people told me you need to see the big picture.
And the big picture isn't diatonic.
So why would you take 1 section of a song and analyse that one apart from the rest?
The Goin' Crazy solo is mixolydian if the solo was the complete song.
But I got told and it's true that the song is in D major not mixolydian.
If 1 part is different from the rest the whole song is different.


Dude, I completely deconstructed that Goin' Crazy song for you and explained how it worked. The solo is still in D major, regardless of whether Vai played it or not.
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#27
Quote by AlanHB
Dude, I completely deconstructed that Goin' Crazy song for you and explained how it worked. The solo is still in D major, regardless of whether Vai played it or not.

Quote by liampje
The Goin' Crazy solo is mixolydian if the solo was the complete song.
Why do post must have 2 characters while I can give answers with quotes?
EDIT:Aah now I see I know that if a song is in D mixolydian the key center would be D major just like A dorian will make up A minor.
Last edited by liampje at Aug 7, 2011,
#28
Quote by liampje
Why do post must have 2 characters while I can give answers with quotes?
EDIT:Aah now I see I know that if a song is in D mixolydian the key center would be D major just like A dorian will make up A minor.


No really. Even if you had the solo by itself, a guitar playing a line over the verse progression which is repeated for the entire song, it will be D major, just like the rest of the song.

And if a song is in D mixolydian, it is modal, and not in D major.


<Shoots self in head>
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#29
Quote by liampje
EDIT:Aah now I see I know that if a song is in D mixolydian the key center would be D major just like A dorian will make up A minor.

No! Not really. If a song is in D mixolydian, it doesn't have anything to do with D major.
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Last edited by hames jetfield at Aug 7, 2011,
#30
this thread makes me want to vomit and cry at the same time.
if you want to understand chromatic harmony, theres a few tricks. for one, really understanding diatonic harmony---for example, what notes pull to other notes (guide tones--a term you should look up), understanding harmonic function (where does a chord want to go?) and understanding common chords that are not diatonic, but highly functional (the II7 chord--a pre-dominant chord--leads to the dominant--, vii full diminished 7--a dominant function chord--leads to the tonic--, #IV fully diminished 7--leads to the dominant--, bII7 chord--leads to the tonic--, a bVI7 chord--an enharmonic spelling for a german augmented sixth chord--which can lead a couple places etc.). keep reading (and studying until you understand) the books your reading (berklee harmony series?)--and you'll get it, but chromatic harmony can be complex if you have a weak foundation (if you don't a good deal of it is common sense).
all the best.
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#31
Quote by carnagereap666
But Aeolian Wolf implied that one chord can throw the whole thing off. It can't.

ARGUMENT OVER.


you're still learning. you're quick to doubt those who have far more experience than you, and dismiss them as incorrect. i know at 13 you think you're the smartest person in the world, but you have quite a bit of learning to do still, regardless of how much you know.

if you play notes outside the key, you're not using diatonic harmony. i don't care if it's a 16th note in a 3 minute song. it's not diatonic harmony. then it becomes tonal harmony.

it depends on your definition of "throw things off", a choice of words i didn't use.
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#32
Quote by AlanHB
No really. Even if you had the solo by itself, a guitar playing a line over the verse progression which is repeated for the entire song, it will be D major, just like the rest of the song.

And if a song is in D mixolydian, it is modal, and not in D major.


<Shoots self in head>

Ow wait now I know, it's D major with a b7.
Which is exactly the same as the D mixolydian scale.
But let me guess, because we live in this day and age were modal is very rare in western music, we shouldn't look at it in a modal perspective?
#33
Quote by tehREALcaptain
this thread makes me want to vomit and cry at the same time.
if you want to understand chromatic harmony, theres a few tricks. for one, really understanding diatonic harmony---for example, what notes pull to other notes (guide tones--a term you should look up), understanding harmonic function (where does a chord want to go?) and understanding common chords that are not diatonic, but highly functional (the II7 chord--a pre-dominant chord--leads to the dominant--, vii full diminished 7--a dominant function chord--leads to the tonic--, #IV fully diminished 7--leads to the dominant--, bII7 chord--leads to the tonic--, a bVI7 chord--an enharmonic spelling for a german augmented sixth chord--which can lead a couple places etc.). keep reading (and studying until you understand) the books your reading (berklee harmony series?)--and you'll get it, but chromatic harmony can be complex if you have a weak foundation (if you don't a good deal of it is common sense).

This whole thread was meant for getting excersises not possibilities.
So do you know a song?
#34
Quote by liampje
Ow wait now I know, it's D major with a b7.
Which is exactly the same as the D mixolydian scale.
But let me guess, because we live in this day and age were modal is very rare in western music, we shouldn't look at it in a modal perspective?

in reality, yes.

Posting that sequence of chords, I'm gonna absolutely assume that song is tonal and not modal. You can use the D mixo scale, its just not the mixo mode. With a lot more chords, the song is hard to stick to modality. See, using the b7, or say a bVII chord in major, is just a borrowed chord from the parallel minor. Steve Vai is a great guitarist, but I don't think he has really wrote a modal song ever, at least to my knowledge. With a chord sequence like that, as I said, It's hard to stay modal. If the song sounds resolved to D major, it is in D major. It can just borrow the extra accidentals from its parallel minor and such.

Modal music barely exists nowadays. It has very strict rules, such as a very static vamp. If you wanted to use Mixolydian, you would have to stay with probably just a D or something like D7sus4, and that's it, or else it risks resolving to the major or minor. And even just doing that does not make it modal. That is why we almost never assume a song is modal, its just so uncommon. We are trying to help you, not to flame your knowledge

EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6pW_q1PvH0&ob=av2e
Here is that example I was telling you about. Listen to the chorus, its D maj, Amaj Bmin F#min Gmaj Gmin Dmaj. The Gmin is not diatonic, but the voice movements from Gmaj Gmin Dmaj give a nice chromatic movement. The Third from Gmaj, B, moves chromatically to Bb, and the Bb moves to the 5th of D, the A.

Here is another We are the world http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPbiQMpK52E
It is in Emajor. At 2:38, it starts borrowing chords from the minor scale, the bVI bVII I progression. It still sounds resolved to Emajor, but the chords are nondiatonic. I hope these help
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Last edited by Zinnie at Aug 7, 2011,
#35
Quote by AeolianWolf
saying that a song is chromatic is just as ridiculous as saying it's diatonic (unless, of course, it's flight of the bumblebee or some such tune).



That's tonal!
#36
Quote by AeolianWolf
you're still learning. you're quick to doubt those who have far more experience than you, and dismiss them as incorrect. i know at 13 you think you're the smartest person in the world, but you have quite a bit of learning to do still, regardless of how much you know.

if you play notes outside the key, you're not using diatonic harmony. i don't care if it's a 16th note in a 3 minute song. it's not diatonic harmony. then it becomes tonal harmony.

it depends on your definition of "throw things off", a choice of words i didn't use.


Everyone is still learning. I think that because you have one accidental in one part of a song, that doesn't mean the song is not diatonically correct, just the part of the song that has the accidental. I'm very aware that I am not the smartest one in the world, but I do believe that I am smart. The people on this forum that browse MT are smarter than me. That includes you. I try to learn from when someone asks a question I don't know the answer to. I'll look it up, study it for a bit, and then apply it to guitar. That's how I learn new things. I'm open to learning new things about music. 95% of my time is spent on this forum and on various music theory sites. I notice a lot of people assume every thirteen year old is automatically inferior to them as soon as they learn of his age. Of course, some teenagers are trolls who could care less about where to play a neapolitan sixth. But I'm not. I strive to learn more and more everyday. Some days are good, some are bad.

If I play notes outside the key, I'm not using diatonic harmony. But it is my opinion that if one part in the song doesn't use it, and the rest do. The good overweighs the bad and I'd say you are diatonically correct, except in one part.


Also: When I said ARGUMENT OVER, I didn't mean it in an arrogant way. I meant it as I don't feel like discussing this anymore. I will probably respond to your response with an even longer response, in a desperate attempt to "one-up" you. But that's what a debate is.
#37
Quote by griffRG7321
That's tonal!


exactly. but i guess i could understand if someone called it chromatic.

Quote by carnagereap666
Everyone is still learning. I think that because you have one accidental in one part of a song, that doesn't mean the song is not diatonically correct, just the part of the song that has the accidental. I'm very aware that I am not the smartest one in the world, but I do believe that I am smart. The people on this forum that browse MT are smarter than me. That includes you. I try to learn from when someone asks a question I don't know the answer to. I'll look it up, study it for a bit, and then apply it to guitar. That's how I learn new things. I'm open to learning new things about music. 95% of my time is spent on this forum and on various music theory sites. I notice a lot of people assume every thirteen year old is automatically inferior to them as soon as they learn of his age. Of course, some teenagers are trolls who could care less about where to play a neapolitan sixth. But I'm not. I strive to learn more and more everyday. Some days are good, some are bad.

If I play notes outside the key, I'm not using diatonic harmony. But it is my opinion that if one part in the song doesn't use it, and the rest do. The good overweighs the bad and I'd say you are diatonically correct, except in one part.


Also: When I said ARGUMENT OVER, I didn't mean it in an arrogant way. I meant it as I don't feel like discussing this anymore. I will probably respond to your response with an even longer response, in a desperate attempt to "one-up" you. But that's what a debate is.


oh. i thought it WAS intended to be arrogant. if anything i said offended you, disregard it.

i know you know your stuff. you know more than i did at 13, i'll give you that. i wasn't even a musician when i was 13. your age has nothing to do with it, really.

i guess something like this is open to interpretation. i wouldn't view it so much as "good" or "bad", though. diatonic does not necessarily mean good, and non-diatonic is far from bad. that's why tonal music is the best of the three -- it offers more possibilities than diatonic and modal (which, honestly, are kind of the same thing if you look at it the right way).
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#38
Quote by AeolianWolf
exactly. but i guess i could understand if someone called it chromatic.


oh. i thought it WAS intended to be arrogant. if anything i said offended you, disregard it.

i know you know your stuff. you know more than i did at 13, i'll give you that. i wasn't even a musician when i was 13. your age has nothing to do with it, really.

i guess something like this is open to interpretation. i wouldn't view it so much as "good" or "bad", though. diatonic does not necessarily mean good, and non-diatonic is far from bad. that's why tonal music is the best of the three -- it offers more possibilities than diatonic and modal (which, honestly, are kind of the same thing if you look at it the right way).

......i thought that there was just modal, tonal and post-tonal i thought "diatonic" was a word applying to harmony and scales and whatnot in "tonal" music. like "diatonic" scales and "diatonic" harmony, isn't it still tonal??
#39
Quote by TMVATDI
......i thought that there was just modal, tonal and post-tonal i thought "diatonic" was a word applying to harmony and scales and whatnot in "tonal" music. like "diatonic" scales and "diatonic" harmony, isn't it still tonal??


Yes, diatonic key-based music is still included under the category of 'tonality.'
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#40
Quote by soviet_ska
Yes, diatonic key-based music is still included under the category of 'tonality.'


right. diatonic is tonal, but tonal encompasses more than diatonic. it's like the square/rectangle deal.
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