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#1
ive learned modes a long time ago, i know what they are, but i just dont get the point on why people would use them for a song.


example: D Doirian mode, is just the c major scale expect the D is the root note.

it has all the diatonic traids a cmajor traid has, so whats what would the point be to modes?
#2
Loop a D minor chord. now play D dorian over it, then play D Phrygian, now play D Aeolian. Hear the difference in flavors? When soloing use the flavor you like over that given chord.
#3
so can i use d dorian scale, with a d major diatonic traids? if not then i migh aswell just play in the key of c major if i want that flavour.
#4
Quote by knobtwiddler
Loop a D minor chord. now play D dorian over it, then play D Phrygian, now play D Aeolian. Hear the difference in flavors? When soloing use the flavor you like over that given chord.


...that's just playing in a key using accidentals. not at all how modes are used. i know satriani calls it pitch axis theory, but he's not really a theory wizard, much as i enjoy his music.

Quote by harvestkingx
so can i use d dorian scale, with a d major diatonic traids? if not then i migh aswell just play in the key of c major if i want that flavour.


...why would you do that?

modes have to do with the resolution. if you learn to shift the resolution away from the expected places (i.e. A or C using the notes C D E F G A B), you create modal music. the problem with this is that it's extremely limiting. too much movement and progression and it begins to sound tonal.

i recommend checking out the mode sticky. i don't really have time at the moment to explain it all out.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#5
Quote by AeolianWolf
...that's just playing in a key using accidentals. not at all how modes are used. i know satriani calls it pitch axis theory, but he's not really a theory wizard, much as i enjoy his music.


Pitch axis theory aside...playing over one chord is modal. If I play D phrygian over a D minor chord which is looping then its modal. I could say its in Bb major but then if its only one chord how can I say its in any key? And if I then choose to play D dorian, does the key then change to C major? Again, its only one chord and therfore it can't be playing in key with accidentals. And with Satriani, he calls it his pitch axis theory. Its his system which is complete. It doesnt have to relate to any other concept of modes.
Andy
#6
In this day and age, modes do not exist.
Because our ears are used to tonal music, it is not something like F lydian but it is F major with an augumented fourth.
It's the same but it is the most correct to note it down in that style.
#7
Quote by Andy_Mclaughlan
Pitch axis theory aside...playing over one chord is modal. If I play D phrygian over a D minor chord which is looping then its modal. I could say its in Bb major but then if its only one chord how can I say its in any key? And if I then choose to play D dorian, does the key then change to C major? Again, its only one chord and therfore it can't be playing in key with accidentals. And with Satriani, he calls it his pitch axis theory. Its his system which is complete. It doesnt have to relate to any other concept of modes.
Andy


you play well, too, but you're no theory wizard, either.
Joseph

Quote by liampje
In this day and age, modes do not exist.
Because our ears are used to tonal music, it is not something like F lydian but it is F major with an augumented fourth.
It's the same but it is the most correct to note it down in that style.


half the time you get it, and half the time you don't. you confuse me.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Aug 8, 2011,
#8
Quote by AeolianWolf
you play well, too, but you're no theory wizard, either.
Joseph


half the time you get it, and half the time you don't. you confuse me.


at the first bit, at the second, i dunno, it seems to be wrong or a parroting with no understanding, no offence liam, but a lot of the time, usually when it makes sense, it's almost a direct quote that someone like sean or you or soviet ska or someone said.... no offence liam, as someone pointed out, when i was your age i hardly played music at all so give it time!
#9
The words we use to describe music are not the music itself. The argument about modes would seem a lot less important if we understood it was merely semantic.

If I play a C drone and a melody with the notes C, D, E, F#, G, A, and B I could describe it in terms of a C major scale with an accidental or in terms of the Lydian mode. The music would be the same. This is just categorisation, and in a complex field categories always blur. They're not atomic. They're useful shorthand, and can help with analysing effects, but they are never the whole story. The only true description of music is a transcription of the notes played.
#10
Quote by Jehannum
The words we use to describe music are not the music itself. The argument about modes would seem a lot less important if we understood it was merely semantic.

If I play a C drone and a melody with the notes C, D, E, F#, G, A, and B I could describe it in terms of a C major scale with an accidental or in terms of the Lydian mode. The music would be the same. This is just categorisation, and in a complex field categories always blur. They're not atomic. They're useful shorthand, and can help with analysing effects, but they are never the whole story. The only true description of music is a transcription of the notes played.


Exactly. If I call it C major with an accidental or lydian they both sound the same therefore are the same, no contest. In my mind if I play those notes over a C drone you can call it whatever you want but its going to sound the same. Being that this is music theory it must relate to the sounds and if I can give one sound more than one name does it really matter? The exact same information is still communicated.
Andy
#11
Quote by AeolianWolf
you play well, too, but you're no theory wizard, either.

.


Well, theory wizard, point out where I have went wrong in that post? How can one chord played alone be in any key? Dm could be in C major, Bb Major, F major...but out of context it is in neither. If I play D Dorian over that chord or the notes of C major then yes you could say its in C major. You could also say its in D minor with an accidental. I could then play D phrygian and say its in Bb major or again D minor with accidentals. I could then play D aeolian and say its in F major or in D minor. Or....I could merely say its in either D Dorian, D phrygian or D aeolian (minor). I know for sure whats an easier approach from my point of view.
Andy
#13
Quote by Andy_Mclaughlan
I know for sure whats an easier approach from my point of view.


Is it calling it D minor with accidentals?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#14
Quote by AeolianWolf
...that's just playing in a key using accidentals.


No it's not.
shred is gaudy music
#15
Quote by Andy_Mclaughlan
Exactly. If I call it C major with an accidental or lydian they both sound the same therefore are the same, no contest. In my mind if I play those notes over a C drone you can call it whatever you want but its going to sound the same. Being that this is music theory it must relate to the sounds and if I can give one sound more than one name does it really matter? The exact same information is still communicated.
Andy


That point of view begins and ends where you do. YOU can call it whatever you like. Call your Pentatonic scale Myxoflippian for all anyone cares.

But to answer your question, "does it really matter"? Yes, here it does, when others are going to be reading this and walk away with (your own opinion and approach being excepted here) an errant point of view that is being passed on to those who are unsuspecting, or ignorant. Otherwise, it's going to be people like myself that post differing points of view, not for your sake (really we could care less how you use them as or call them - its perfectly your right) but for the sake of those who do not know better.

In such instances, and not only in yours, expect us to post an interjection as we have for at least the last few years that I've been coming here, to make sure that no one else walks away with an unopposed version of what in my mind is a flawed understanding, one that you have every right to, but when you voice it as fact or as a point of view that proposes others should adopt to maintain the "correct" way of looking at things, expect either debate or opposite points of view. Don't take it personally, no one is here telling you want to believe. This is for the sake of others that don't know better.

So, while we may validate your right to hold to, follow and believe your point of view, we may not always validate the point of view in and of itself as being complete or of substance.

In your instance using Lydian, if you called something Lydian, but understood that the actual function of that scale as it was being used was as a name to give a pattern which notes were a convenient way of organizing those accidentals, then I would wholly support that notion. The problem is in not recognizing that difference, where I feel much error is created, and passed along.

Hopefully this helps you understand where we are coming from.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Aug 9, 2011,
#16
Quote by AeolianWolf
...that's just playing in a key using accidentals. not at all how modes are used.

I agree that it won't be modal but you're still "using" modes. It's like using modes in a tonal context if it makes any sense. Like using the notes of modes as scales. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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#17
Quote by GuitarMunky
No it's not.


i don't see how. if, over a Dm chord, you're going to play D phrygian, D dorian, D aeolian, and any other mode you might derive from hammering exotic scales into our western music system (off of D, naturally), the resolution will be on D. even if it's one chord, which, by itself, suggests no key, the lead lines you play will suggest a key. and it will be D minor.

if you only play D phrygian, or only play D dorian, then i could easily see how it would be modal. but once you get this "pitch axis" deal involved, it's tonal.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#18
Quote by AeolianWolf
i don't see how. if, over a Dm chord, you're going to play D phrygian, D dorian, D aeolian, and any other mode you might derive from hammering exotic scales into our western music system (off of D, naturally), the resolution will be on D. even if it's one chord, which, by itself, suggests no key, the lead lines you play will suggest a key. and it will be D minor.

if you only play D phrygian, or only play D dorian, then i could easily see how it would be modal. but once you get this "pitch axis" deal involved, it's tonal.



Why do you think the "pitch axis" thing makes it "tonal" (VS just 1 mode)?

I would argue that a clear tonal chord progression makes it tonal. A single chord vamping endlessly is ambiguous. if you want it to be Dorian, it can be.... if you want to to be Phrygian, it can be.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 9, 2011,
#19
Quote by GuitarMunky
Why do you think the "pitch axis" thing makes it "tonal" (VS just 1 mode)?


because i'm viewing the composition as a whole, as the classical approach. the "patterns-on-a-fretboard" deal means nothing to me.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#20
Quote by AeolianWolf
because i'm viewing the composition as a whole, as the classical approach. the "patterns-on-a-fretboard" deal means nothing to me.



What is the composition that we are talking about?

I thought we were talking about the idea of playing various parallel modes over a single chord vamp.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 9, 2011,
#22
Quote by AlanHB
Is it calling it D minor with accidentals?

When you have 3 possible 'modes', chord scales whatever you guys want to agree on calling them..then no...I know when I want to experiment with different sounds the scale patterns are much more visual and easier to hear than thinking 'OK now I have to flatten the 3rd or raise the 7th or whatever. Yeah that point is debatable. But still, I argue my point that if someone is playing over one chord for a period of time and using a particular grouping of notes its modal. If thats not true then what was Miles experimenting with on Kind of Blue? If we want to talk about modal playing as owing to some harmonic function within that specific mode then that point is incorrect. But if we want to explore melodic ideas using those combination of notes (as Miles set out to do on that recording and Milestones before it) over one chord or drone then why do we have to maintain this idea that it can and is only one scale with accidentals added? If you say that D phrygian is and can only ever be D minor with a flattened 2nd then by that logic why cant it also be Bb major with a flat 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th? And why if we are playing only one chord and are therfore not in any key, can it not be OK to play modes? Regardless of what anyone on this forum says, when I hear a sharp 4th against a major chord, I think lydian. It sounds like lydian, the scale patterns match those, if I so desire I can use a couple of chords with the root of the chord/scale droning and further that sound? Why is it wrong to teach that as opposed to 'this must only be referred to as a major scale with a sharpened 4th'. Were guys like Miles and Coltrane wrong in their understanding of modes? These guys knew their shit inside and out! Coltrane practically rewrote the book on improvisation. Now before attacking this post with 'you are this and that and you dont know shit'....i am genuinely interested in your opinions on this.
Andy
#23
Quote by AeolianWolf
i don't see how. if, over a Dm chord, you're going to play D phrygian, D dorian, D aeolian, and any other mode you might derive from hammering exotic scales into our western music system (off of D, naturally), the resolution will be on D. even if it's one chord, which, by itself, suggests no key, the lead lines you play will suggest a key. and it will be D minor.

if you only play D phrygian, or only play D dorian, then i could easily see how it would be modal. but once you get this "pitch axis" deal involved, it's tonal.

a lot of old modal stuff did this from time to time actually. theres nothing wrong with shifting to a different mode. you just said yourself that it didnt imply a key.....so how exactly can it both imply, and not imply a key? and i dont know why you assume the lead lines will suggest D minor.
#24
Quote by Blind In 1 Ear
a lot of old modal stuff did this from time to time actually. theres nothing wrong with shifting to a different mode. you just said yourself that it didnt imply a key.....so how exactly can it both imply, and not imply a key? and i dont know why you assume the lead lines will suggest D minor.


if you're playing over a D minor chord, eventually it's all just going to sound like D minor with accidentals. it's all going to begin to sound tonal after a while. okay, fine, so you'll start off with dorian. great, it's dorian. then phrygian comes in. getting a little weird. and then some other bastardized modes will come in, since some are bound to have a D, F, and an A. eventually the listener will come to hear the entire thing as being tonal, unless the sections are clearly defined.

the chord doesn't imply the key. it can, but it's debatable, for obvious reasons. when played over, the music contains more context, and can then suggest a key.

maybe the old modal music did that, but remember that we don't go by the old modal system today. when we do want to try to use that system and use modes, we're STILL limited by our contemporary key system -- we need to be sure that it doesn't sound like it's just in a key. and keys have the advantage of letting us use any note we want, anywhere we want. so the B natural in D dorian and the Eb in D phrygian are just going to sound as though we're playing in D minor and using those two notes.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#25
Quote by AeolianWolf
if you're playing over a D minor chord, eventually it's all just going to sound like D minor with accidentals. it's all going to begin to sound tonal after a while. okay, fine, so you'll start off with dorian. great, it's dorian. then phrygian comes in. getting a little weird. and then some other bastardized modes will come in, since some are bound to have a D, F, and an A. eventually the listener will come to hear the entire thing as being tonal, unless the sections are clearly defined.

then suggest a key.




Na, A single chord vamp on it's own is ambiguous, you can't say it's definitely tonal/key based (and NOT modal).

If you play D dorian melodies over a Dm7 vamp.... and that's entire context, with no other resolution implied..... the listener will hear it that way..... and it won't sound like the key D minor.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 10, 2011,
#26
Quote by GuitarMunky
Na, A single chord vamp on it's own is ambiguous, you can't say it's definitely tonal/key based (and NOT modal).

If you play D dorian melodies over a Dm7 vamp.... and that's entire context, with no other resolution implied..... the listener will hear it that way..... and it won't sound like the key D minor.


Exactly my thinking.
#27
Quote by GuitarMunky
Na, A single chord vamp on it's own is ambiguous, you can't say it's definitely tonal/key based (and NOT modal).

If you play D dorian melodies over a Dm7 vamp.... and that's entire context, with no other resolution implied..... the listener will hear it that way..... and it won't sound like the key D minor.


bingo. but then when you get the pitch axis deal involved, then keys come into play.

if you have a Dm7 drone for 3 minutes and you only play D dorian melodies over it, i can't argue that it's not D dorian.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#28
Quote by AeolianWolf
bingo. but then when you get the pitch axis deal involved, then keys come into play.




can you demonstrate this?
shred is gaudy music
#30
Quote by AeolianWolf
bingo. but then when you get the pitch axis deal involved, then keys come into play.

if you have a Dm7 drone for 3 minutes and you only play D dorian melodies over it, i can't argue that it's not D dorian.


You previously argued with me that it could only be considered D minor with accidentals.
#31
Quote by GuitarMunky
can you demonstrate this?



I think in a nutshell it's when you have an actual progression that resolves etc and you imply a modal scale over the top however you base the chords you play around which scales you want to hear.

So for example you may want to start with A Ionian so you have a typical AMaj7 chord to start. Then you want to move to an A Phrygian sound - so you have the progression move to Amin7b5 then you want A Lydian so you have an Amaj7#11 etcblah

Pitch Axis is creating chords out of the scales you want to play thus you are always hearing the chord tones which signifies a stronger modality / tonality.

At least that's what I interpret it as ! Anyone care to enlighten us ?

EDIT: Sorry Griff I changed my post before I saw your next comment vvv :P
Last edited by Zanon at Aug 10, 2011,
#32
Satch and Vai play modes over drones and vamps (modulating these vamps of course, I never understand why people are like "I've written an entire piece in C lydian", an entire piece without any harmonic movement is going to be stale as month old bread).
#33
Quote by Andy_Mclaughlan
You previously argued with me that it could only be considered D minor with accidentals.


when? all you're suggesting to me now is that your reading comprehension skills are flawed, too.

if you can quote where i said that playing D dorian over a static Dm7 would not be D dorian, you get a llama.

GM, yes, i can. give me a couple of days, though. i don't have too much free time atm.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#34
Quote by AeolianWolf
if you're playing over a D minor chord, eventually it's all just going to sound like D minor with accidentals. it's all going to begin to sound tonal after a while. okay, fine, so you'll start off with dorian. great, it's dorian. then phrygian comes in. getting a little weird. and then some other bastardized modes will come in, since some are bound to have a D, F, and an A. eventually the listener will come to hear the entire thing as being tonal, unless the sections are clearly defined.

the chord doesn't imply the key. it can, but it's debatable, for obvious reasons. when played over, the music contains more context, and can then suggest a key.

maybe the old modal music did that, but remember that we don't go by the old modal system today. when we do want to try to use that system and use modes, we're STILL limited by our contemporary key system -- we need to be sure that it doesn't sound like it's just in a key. and keys have the advantage of letting us use any note we want, anywhere we want. so the B natural in D dorian and the Eb in D phrygian are just going to sound as though we're playing in D minor and using those two notes.


Right here. You say its all going to sound like D minor with accidentals. Does that point not directly oppose the notion that we could refer to them as modes?
Andy
#35
Quote by Andy_Mclaughlan
Right here. You say its all going to sound like D minor with accidentals. Does that point not directly oppose the notion that we could refer to them as modes?
Andy


right. if you start getting all of the "modes" into play.

if you play D dorian melodies over a static Dm7, it's D dorian. unarguably so. once you bring D phrygian in, the ear will hear the switch from B to Bb, and it will hear the Eb. to those who have good ears, it will all begin to sound tonal.

remember that the musicians that hear your work will, by and large, not be considered with the fretboard patterns you're playing.

if you start bringing a shitload of accidentals into play, it's all just going to sound tonal, whether there's a pattern or not. that's the limiting factor of modal music -- the inability to have accidentals.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Aug 11, 2011,
#36
Quote by AeolianWolf

if you start bringing a shitload of accidentals into play, it's all just going to sound *tonal*, whether there's a pattern or not. that's the limiting factor of modal music -- the inability to have accidentals.


Fixed ! I'm pretty sure AelianWolf meant to say that tonal in that last part.
#37
Quote by SuperWeirdoUG
Fixed ! I'm pretty sure AelianWolf meant to say that tonal in that last part.


good catch! thanks, man. shot myself in the foot there.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#38
Quote by Andy_Mclaughlan
You previously argued with me that it could only be considered D minor with accidentals.


The validity of what you say on this forum depends entirely on your username rather than the actual content of your posts, Andy.
Quote by AlanHB
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