#1
The specific piece I'm working on is Mozart Piano Sonata 11 in A Major. In the 2nd variation on the theme in the first movement there are 16th and 32nd notes over triplets (it's in 6/8 time). Here's a link to the sheet music http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/f/fe/IMSLP56321-PMLP01846-Mozart_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_20_KV331.pdf

I'm having a lot of trouble with this. I can't seem to get my hands to play the different subdivisions without falling out of time. I can play the parts separately but when I try to put them together my playing falls apart.

I'm stuck at this point, it doesn't seem to matter how much I slow it down I can't keep in time. So if anyone can offer some advice I'd appreciate it.
#2
The only thing I can really think of is perceive the triplet groupings as an eighth note...great gobbling gallbladders, that looks difficult.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#3
this is pretty easy -- i thought you were talking about the 2:3 polyrhythm. but this is just a matter of playing straight sixteenth note triplets in the left hand, and playing the notes on the beat in the right hand. there's a possibility that you're over-complicating it -- maybe you do think it's a polyrhythm.

as a pianist, i can give you the following advice:

1) make sure that the left hand is secure. be certain you can play the triplet groupings without having to think about it.

2) play both hands separately in the second variation using a metronome.

3) if you haven't yet, listen to the piece.

this isn't really any different from playing quarters over eighths. the eighth notes and the sixteenth note triplets line up on the beat.

have you tackled more difficult pieces before? if this is too difficult, try tackling some easier pieces first. some people tend to try to play pieces they like with little or no prior training. i don't want to make the assumption that you're doing that, but if that's the case, i strongly suggest you work on easier pieces.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#4
^ In the 2nd variation there is some complicated melodic decoration and 4 against 3 polyrhythms .
#5
By the way, why isn't there a keyboard/piano forum around here? We've got drums and singing--two things that are not guitar. Lack of interest?
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#7
Quote by AeolianWolf
this is pretty easy -- i thought you were talking about the 2:3 polyrhythm. but this is just a matter of playing straight sixteenth note triplets in the left hand, and playing the notes on the beat in the right hand. there's a possibility that you're over-complicating it -- maybe you do think it's a polyrhythm.

as a pianist, i can give you the following advice:

1) make sure that the left hand is secure. be certain you can play the triplet groupings without having to think about it.

2) play both hands separately in the second variation using a metronome.

3) if you haven't yet, listen to the piece.

this isn't really any different from playing quarters over eighths. the eighth notes and the sixteenth note triplets line up on the beat.

have you tackled more difficult pieces before? if this is too difficult, try tackling some easier pieces first. some people tend to try to play pieces they like with little or no prior training. i don't want to make the assumption that you're doing that, but if that's the case, i strongly suggest you work on easier pieces.

In the case of this piece it's not really the eigth notes that I have a problem with it's the 16th and 32nd notes over the triplets that I'm having a problem with. I just worded it poorly I guess. I've hit road blocks in other pieces where I've had to play 8th notes over triplets in 3/4 and 4/4 time before so I tend to think of the problem that way even though this piece is in 6/8 time.

I've been playing piano for almost 2 years now. I'd tried all the things you suggested before I posted this thread actually. My timing just falls apart when I try put both parts together. The theme and first variation weren't a problem for me though.

On another note. I'd like to have a piano forum too. How can we make that happen? Only admins can add new forums right?
#8
Quote by KeineZeit
On another note. I'd like to have a piano forum too. How can we make that happen? Only admins can add new forums right?


I'm guessing Alan is our best bet.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#9
Quote by griffRG7321
^ In the 2nd variation there is some complicated melodic decoration and 4 against 3 polyrhythms .



Nah, it's three sixteenth notes fit into one eighth note. The biggest thing I could see throwing you off is the four note flourishes that close some of the bars. I would think of those as a roll of the fingers more than anything - if that makes sense.

So far as matching the three sixteenths to one eighth;

First play each hand alone very slowly

Put the hands together and count 'one two three one two three'

Play one of the sixteens on each count but each time you say 'one' you should be playing or resting the next eighth note. Play whatever is on each eighth note beat and ignore all extra flourishes if you are unable to get them in - add them later once your timing is secure.
Last edited by Vlasco at Aug 9, 2011,
#10
Quote by Vlasco
Nah, it's three sixteenth notes fit into one eighth note. The biggest thing I could see throwing you off is the four note flourishes that close some of the bars. I would think of those as a roll of the fingers more than anything - if that makes sense.

So far as matching the three sixteenths to one eighth;

First play each hand alone very slowly

Put the hands together and count 'one two three one two three'

Play one of the sixteens on each count but each time you say 'one' you should be playing or resting the next eighth note. Play whatever is on each eighth note beat and ignore all extra flourishes if you are unable to get them in - add them later once your timing is secure.


Quavers over triplet 16ths is simple. TS is talking about the melodic decoration and the 32nd notes against the triplet 16ths (again, thats a 4:3 polyrhythm).
#11
And again, that's a decoration - you add them later and think of them as just that (decorations) to make the rhythms a bit less daunting. I feel that to count them out like that would be taking it a bit too far for what they are.

When I play it out what I do is make the triplet patterns entirely automatic and just trill and roll my fingers for the embellishments - I don't really count them but rather just make them fit as a motion over the triplets.
Last edited by Vlasco at Aug 9, 2011,
#12
oh, i see. sorry, been out all day.

practice them both at an insanely slow speed, until you have the 4:3 feel down. once you can really hear it, provided your technique is good, you should be able to play it well at any speed. does it for me, at least.

if i asked you to play a 4:3 polyrhythm for me by slamming your two hands on a table (one counting fours and one counting threes), could you do it? if not, try working on it -- it'll help you hear the polyrhythm.

i really don't know what else to tell you other than practice.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.