Page 1 of 4
#1
Yea that's my thought. Been playing for 8 years now, on the same amp, with the same guitar: It's time to switch shit up.

To start with: I'm decent at guitar, but I SUCK at everything gear related. I don't wanna bother with the technical details. I don't know a fender from a gibson, and I just want to have the sweet sound - without learning everything out there, not related to actual music.

Sum it up: I'm gonna pay a SHITLOAD of money for this, and I actually have no clue what I'm doing, so please help me out.

So, I picked an artist I like, and I'm gonna just copy his gear. Straight off. I worked the money in, time to buy, and a couple of questions, probably pretty basic, pops into my mind.


I chose Emppu vourinen from nightwish to copy, his gear is as seen in:
http://www.inwfc.com/en/Band/Equipment/Emppu_Vuorinen/index.html


Guitar
custom made ESP Horizon with Seymour Duncan pickups (TB-5 /bridge, SHR-1n/middle and SH-2n/neck)

Pic


•Sansamt PSA-1 Rack Preamp


Amps & Cabinets:


•Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier
•Mesa Boogie Stereo 50 Amplifier
•Marshall-JCM 800 und JCM-900 Boxes


To start off with, I did some reading on the equipment.
1: The mesa boogie dual rectifier: This is the top, right? He links that top to the marshall speakers?

2: Also, if this is the top, it should be perfectly sound to get this piece of equipment used, for a lower price, since it's not a piece that really wears down with use?

3: Mesa Boogie Stereo 50 amplifier
I did some reading on this product, and I still don't know what it is. From what I've read, this is something I will ONLY use if I play a big consert and need to cram out extra sound? If I really need it, this is also equipment I should get used?

4: To clarify this a little, I also checked wikipedia:
" His current main amplifiers are Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifiers with Marshall JCM 800 4x12 speaker cabinets"
I still do not get this, on marshalls site JCM refers to the top, not to the speakers:
http://marshallamps.com/product.asp?productCode=JCM800

5: Also, speakers, this is a part that wears, so this I should get new, right?

6: The preamp, do I need this at all?

7: the guitarr, his guitarr is custom made, and the pickups he has, looks like the guitarr I already have, pretty much. I'm thinking of getting a clean ESP horizon FR II



This guitar has active pickups I think. Which requires batteries? How often do I need to change those, is it a bother at all, or just cool to get better sound?

8: It only has two pickups, compared to my current guitar's three. The guitar is going to cost a LOT, but that sounds like a step down in versitality?

This is my current guitar
http://www.ibanez.co.jp/products/eg_page11.php?area_id=3&data_id=186&color=CL01&year=2011&cat_id=1&series_id=477
Last edited by Sparrisen at Aug 12, 2011,
#2
You might as well throw your old gear out if you're looking at getting stuff of this caliber. You won't even want to look at your old stuff anymore if you have this stuff.

Important question: Can you tell the difference in tone between the Mesa and ESP vs the gear you have now? Because if not, it may not be time to upgrade yet. Don't upgrade for the sake of upgrading. I understand you are bored with your gear, but don't just jump into it so blindly.

You'll never sound like a recorded tone, ever. There are some things you don't need to get 100%, because those little things won't make a huge difference anyway. By this I mean getting a Dual Rec head and a Marshall cab - you'll get a pretty damn close sound just getting a Dual Rec halfstack, and it'll be easier for you.

The guitar itself doesn't have a whole lot to do with tone, relatively. More importantly than just getting the guitar he uses, get a guitar that is comfortable to you. If you're familiar with Ibanez, look into Prestige models. Then just get the pickups he has, and you'll also be fairly close. Comfort and feel are the most important parts of a guitar, not tone.

Most importantly, go to a store and try, try, try. Get gear that works for you. Just because that stuff works for him doesn't mean that it will work for you. This applies mostly to the guitar. For the amp, you should get the same amp he uses if you're trying to get his tone.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
Last edited by Offworld92 at Aug 12, 2011,
#3
You're just going to copy someone's rig?


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#4
From your post it looks like you're going to be spending a LOT of money on stuff you don't exactly know how to work/use. Honestly it seems a bit ridiculous to copy a rig for the sake of copying a rig and although a lot of that stuff is top of the line kind of stuff, you're not going to need all of it to get a great sound.
#5
Most of this guys gear is rack mount stuff. Meaning u can get close to his tone with the guitar, dual rec, and marshall 1960 cab but it wont be exact unless u get all his rack gear and figurw out his signal chain for effects and rack mount. Make ur own rig. Get your own sound and youll be a lot happier.
#6
Well, I know it sounds like I'm insane, but I guess we all are in a way or another. I worked 16 hours a day, 6.5 days of the week while living in a car to afford this stuff, so I'm dead serious.

Offworld, thanks for the good reply, and also david.

I'm buying this shit once: and then I'm good. The time I have for music is just that; it's for music only. Not tuning in a particulair personalized gear with plastic sticker memories on my guitar, sitting in a music shop for hours trying to find my own personal sound.
That's coming from how I play anyway.

____

So, I had very specific questions, I got some mixed replies, but let's see if I got this right.

To match his sound, I need a dual rectifier halfstack, which I guess means a "combo". And that's it? For the cheapest solution.

I think I'm gonna step that up, because I like marshall, and get:

Dual rectifier top
Marshall 1960 cabinet (I guess that's JCM800 speaker implies right?)

And that's it, that's all I need? (this amplifier thing, not needed?)

Should I get any of these used, or is it better to just buy new stuff?

And the guitar aint that important for the sound, if I got things right.


Thanks for the replies guys, you might save me a LOT by helping me out, and I appreciate it
#7
Halfstack =/= Combo. I don't want to be a dick, but if you don't know even that about amps, should you spend thousands upon thousands on gear that you don't understand, thus don't even know if you'll like.
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Quote by airbrendie
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#8
Quote by VanTheKraut
Halfstack =/= Combo. I don't want to be a dick, but if you don't know even that about amps, should you spend thousands upon thousands on gear that you don't understand, thus don't even know if you'll like.



Like what he said. If your going to upgrade at least know what your buying man. Take some time go to a shop test it out. There is no reason to shell out that kind of dough if you don't even know what your going to do with it..... Just saying coping somones sound doesn't need to cost that much and your tastes will probably evolve... Just go check out some stuff first.
#9
Adding on what everyone is saying, the Dual Rec is an amp that you have to KNOW how to use in order to get a good tone, it takes people a lot of time to dial in a good tone on a Dual Rec, and those people usually know what they are doing.

I cant imagine someone who doesn't exactly understand an amp like that trying to dial in a good tone, i think over all getting a Dual Rec and not knowing how to get the best of it is going to make it sound like a mediocre amp to you, which it is not.

EDIT: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278232

READ THIS, IT HAS A LOT OF GOOD INFORMATION FOR YOU AND WILL ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS.
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Last edited by Blakeu224 at Aug 12, 2011,
#10
Awesome! Blake, this got me started. Interesting and good read, I guess I need to know a few technical details to get a good sound then, even though I'd like to avoid them as far as possible.

But this means, if I got it right, that the mesa boogie dual rectifier is BOTH preamp, and power amp, (as well as rectifier?) which means it's all I need + the cabinet.

Also, please these comments that imply that I'm possibly retarded and best abandon my mission to get an awesome sound, and instead start working up the price range like the average Joe aren't really useful.

It's true, that I don't know the terrain before I go there, like most of you do: But I know it's good terrain, and I'll have a good time exploring it. As long as I get it working, and don't damage it in my ignorance this is gonna be friggin awesome!!!


Only thing I'm worrying about is that, according to the article blake linked, a full tube 100w thing, aint really ideal for home practise since it won't get good sound at low volumes.

I'm of course planning to use this thing at home, with band-jam, and on stage, but that might be a problem?
#11
Quote by Sparrisen
Awesome! Blake, this got me started. Interesting and good read, I guess I need to know a few technical details to get a good sound then, even though I'd like to avoid them as far as possible.

Wait did you just say you'd like be as ignorant as possible? Why would you want to avoid "technical details" "as far as possible." I don't understand. Ignorance is not bliss when you're paying thousands of dollars for something that you don't know anything about. Why are you making this purchase? This is the strangest thread I've ever read in 3 years. Just answer why you want to know as little as possible?

Edit: +1 on what an above user (1 or 2 posts up) said about the Dual Rec, if you do not know how to EQ it, and believe me, you do not, It WILL sound like sludge. Great amp for those who know, I'm not at all bashing it, but it takes a while to learn to EQ and you going in totally ignorant will be a disaster.
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Quote by airbrendie
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Last edited by VanTheKraut at Aug 12, 2011,
#12
Well I guess most of us don't read the instruction manual to anything, before we have to - myself included.

I don't wanna read a manual - I wanna play guitar.
#13
This is a fun thread, your gonna be happy as a pig in shit when you have all this gear.

First thing first, go to a guitar shop and try as much as you can. You may find you prefer say, a 6505 over the Mesa and you'll save money.

I find ESP are amazing but still over priced. If I were you I'd look into getting a custom Carvin, Shecter, Jackson or maybe even your local luthier. The brands I listed dont **** you in the ass when it comes to their custom shop and as such you can throw on other shit like say....Quartz frets.

Hell instead of a head you could get the Fractal Axe FX, a Marshall cab and an Engl tube preamp to warm up the ax fx and dog.....your set.
TEEP!!! Oiiiiiiieeeeeeeyyy!!!!!!
Last edited by Neon Knight at Aug 12, 2011,
#14
If you don't want to bother with technical details, why try to copy some other guy's setup to a tee? Why not walk into your local guitar store with a blank check, and have fun playing around finding what you like? It sounds like you have enough money to get whatever you want. And trust me, if you explain your situation, a salesman will looooooooove helping you out.

My point is, you say you don't want to read manuals. If you want simple, plug in and find an amp you like. It doesn't get more simple than that.
Telecasters-->Dunlop Volume Pedal-T1M Pearl-AMT Japanese Girl Wah-Line 6 M9-Ibanez DE7-EHX Cathedral-->Mesa Boogie Nomad 4x10 combo
#15
Quote by Sparrisen

And the guitar aint that important for the sound, if I got things right.


Relatively no, but don't blow that out of proportion. An ESP is going to sound way, way better than an Ibanez Gio. If you're going to have a quality rig, you should have a quality guitar as well.

Also a thing worth pointing out, if you're going to get a Floyd Rose equipped guitar, make sure to have another one as a backup. Maybe you can get a ESP Horizon FR-II and a Horizon NT-II.

Quote by Sparrisen

Only thing I'm worrying about is that, according to the article blake linked, a full tube 100w thing, aint really ideal for home practise since it won't get good sound at low volumes.

I'm of course planning to use this thing at home, with band-jam, and on stage, but that might be a problem?


A lot of the time that is true, but in the case of high end amplifiers such as Mesa, they do have a fairly consistent sound at all levels. I don't know how true this is for a Rectifier in particular, but it should be okay. Depends on how quiet you need it to be.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#16
i can't believe that you guys are going for this nonsense. i find it very hard to believe that this isn't a troll post. i'm supposed to believe this guy lived in his car to save for all this god aweful expensive stuff yeah right kinda tough to plug in in a car. can't be bothered with details, hmmm. how the hell did this guy learn to play guitar? i see a severe lack of info on the OP no list of current gear etc found in this post or his profile. sorry just not buying this at all.
#17
I find it funny that it says "final" gear.
That concept just does not compute.

The only "final" gear purchase would be the one where you die before leaving the music store with your last purchase.
#18
Quote by Neon Knight


Hell instead of a head you could get the Fractal Axe FX, a Marshall cab and an Engl tube preamp to warm up the ax fx and dog.....your set.


Yes. He will be set if he wants the ultimate modeler running out of a Marshall cab and a 2.5 watt poweramp in the engl.
Peavey 5150
Mesa Mark IV
Mesa Single Rectifier (Series 1)
Fender Custom Shop Tonemaster
Roland Microcube

-Whitebox OS 1x12
-Port City OS 1x12

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#19
TS is either mentally retarded or a troll. Why would you not want to immerse yourself in gear? Understanding the voicing and musicality of different equipment can be as thrilling as playing.
Gear:

Gibson 2005 Les Paul Standard
Fender Road Worn Strat w/ Noiseless pickups
Marshall JCM 2000 401C
Marshall Vintage Modern 2266
Marshall 1960A cab (Dave Hill from Slade's old cab)
Ibanez TS9DX
EHX Little Big Muff
Freshman Acoustic
#20
Quote by CodeMonk
I find it funny that it says "final" gear.
That concept just does not compute.

The only "final" gear purchase would be the one where you die before leaving the music store with your last purchase.
I thought the exact same thing! I highly doubt someone in their 50s or 60s would still be playing an esp with a floyd rose and a dual rec.

Quote by Neon Knight
Hell instead of a head you could get the Fractal Axe FX, a Marshall cab and an Engl tube preamp to warm up the ax fx and dog.....your set.

For a guy who just wants to 'plug in and play' I dont think he'll want a modeller that really needs to be tweaked to sound good. I think he should just buy a spider and use the presets

Quote by ProphetToJables
TS is either mentally retarded or a troll. Why would you not want to immerse yourself in gear? Understanding the voicing and musicality of different equipment can be as thrilling as playing.

I second this. That's half of playing an electric guitar! I think he should play acoustic if he really doesn't want to get involved with gear
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Last edited by JAHellraiser at Aug 12, 2011,
#21
Much as I like to go around UG encouraging people to get what they want and blow their life savings on gear they don't need (need being a relative term here ). I'd really advise you to slow down, read up, learn and test the gear that's about to make you homeless.

No one's tone is perfect, even if you copy Emppu's exact rig, you won't get his sound due to recording methods and post-processing.

I'd advise you not to give up your day job, because evidently you're not even sure how the rig will sound, and will probably end up selling and trading gear because its not doing it for you.

Gear is something you ease into. You don't just get the best there is because it takes skill, knowledge and experience to get gear to sound good like the others have mentioned.

Slow down, or this will end in misery, with someone else happier with your gear than you at the end of the day.
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#22
TS, what do you have for a rig now, and do you gig or ever plan on gigging?
I pride myself on my humility.
Last edited by mtshark at Aug 13, 2011,
#23
Okay: I think this is what I will do:

OF COURSE it makes sense to test this gear out. No shit. But I have a hard time finding stores online to even buy this stuff.

I frankly don't know where to go to test this stuff out. The closest place would be in germany for me, since I live in sweden, and going down there would be ****ed up expensive compared to just buy the shit, get it sent up here, and send it back due to their 30 day money back policy.

So, I might just buy this, test it if I like it, and if it's good, I'm happy (of course play around with the settings since you guys tell me this amp is hard). Otherwise I send it back.

I've never used a seperate head and cabinet. I read that you can **** up the amp if you run it without the cabinet, so I guess that's the only thing I won't do, and then I should be safe to play around.
___________________________

My current gear is shit, I have a budget peavy combo with a cheap multieffect pedal, with the already mentioned guitar (the main thing I don't like with my guitar is inability to use the wammy bar without having to retune my whole guitar)

Also, I play flutes, and piano, sing and dance, and will probably start doing drums when I can find time for that. I'm not a musical retard with a stupid wad of cash.

Yes, I DO play a lot of aucustic as well, but my skill level at electric has hit a point where I feel my current gear is severely limiting.

_______________________

This suggestion to get a custom made guitar from these other companies is really interesting, is that something you other people would also recommend, instead of just getting the esp horizon?
#24
I bet this guys work was delighted when he came into work smelling like crap because he couldnt have a shower due to sleeping in a car.
#25
Yes, I plan on start gigging for real this year. I've gigged before, but not on a large scale, and now, not on a long time.
Guitar is not a straight-forward instrument, it's very hard to get the overview and intuitive feel for this instrument. It's not like playing a piano, it's like playing 6 pianos at once, since you have the 6 strings.

But now, finally after 8 years, I seldom meet anyone better at guitar than myself, although I'm sure that most YOU are. I've reached a semi-pro level and I can really contribute now. This year, I have the opportunity to see if I can really take things to the next level.
I promised my brother to hitch-hike europe with him next year, to show him the real life in the dirt (and the freedom thereof). So this is the year I have in a forseeable future, to make the dreams I had when I first picked up a guitar, true. Is it so strange that I want good stuff to make the best shot of it, that I can?

______

Yes, smelling crap was sometimes an issue, but if you're street smart enough, not an impossibility to stay somewhat clean. More than anything, the workload was a limiting factor.

Currently I can assure you that I smell good, even if my car still smells like shit.
Last edited by Sparrisen at Aug 13, 2011,
#26
not sure if serious.......


if you are trolling then you can **** off!

if you are serious then I'll give you this advice


I'm with Offworld, ragingkitty and most of the others who posted so far. There are other ways to get your favorite tones and learn about gear at the same time. There is nothing wrong with having goals and nice gear but don't do it for the wrong reason. If you are not super familiar with gear then getting a Dual Rec, Floyd equipped guitar, PSA preamp, etc will probably only make you frustrated.


PS: I'm guessing the PSA-1 preamp is plugged into the Mesa Stereo 50 power amp. Most guitar amps consist of a preamp-power amp combination. In the case of a Dual Rec (and most common guitar amps) the preamp portion and the power amp portion are contained in one head (or Top as you call it).

In this example, the guitarist would then have 2 amplifier paths to choose from while playing. The Dual Rec and then the PSA/Mesa power amp.

Good luck
#27
Awesome. That explains a lot.

It also makes me curious, since the preamp, I read a little about it, was a midi controller (or something like that), is it possible to load in sounds like, strings or horns, and use it as a synthisizer?

(I ask this because in many metal songs, there's orchestral pieces, without even a pianist, so I've always wondered if the orchestral pieces just were playbacks at a live preformance)
#28
MIDI has nothing to do with producing actual sounds. MIDI is an interface to send data commands to something that responds to it, like keyboards, synths, etc. The Midi controller in this case changes channels and presets on the preamp.
Peavey 5150
Mesa Mark IV
Mesa Single Rectifier (Series 1)
Fender Custom Shop Tonemaster
Roland Microcube

-Whitebox OS 1x12
-Port City OS 1x12

Digidesign Eleven RackAxe Fx Ultra
#29
Telecasters-->Dunlop Volume Pedal-T1M Pearl-AMT Japanese Girl Wah-Line 6 M9-Ibanez DE7-EHX Cathedral-->Mesa Boogie Nomad 4x10 combo
#30
Alright, I found a used boogie mesa dual rectifier, it's for about half the price than new gear. Seller says the tubes need to be exchanged within half a year, which is why the price is down.

Changing tubes looks easy, and the tubes themselves are rather cheap, so it seems like an awesome deal.

Is there anything I should think about or be aware of?
#31
Quote by Sparrisen
Alright, I found a used boogie mesa dual rectifier, it's for about half the price than new gear. Seller says the tubes need to be exchanged within half a year, which is why the price is down.

Changing tubes looks easy, and the tubes themselves are rather cheap, so it seems like an awesome deal.

Is there anything I should think about or be aware of?


yeah they don't plug into a cigerette lighter. i can't believe that this thread is still going. now think about it how would this guy play, have internet access etc in his freaking car. ok so now he gets this amp where would he keep it, in his car? yeah right.

i'll bet there aren't any better players in the gutter

this is hands down the stupidest thread i've seen in ages.
#32
311, I like your sig but, you need to include the part where they had decided they wanted all their amps to be the same height.
Better, Faster, Stronger

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Quote by airbrendie
Hey guys in the last 3 weeks I ****ed all the girls in this picture, what do you think?

#33
Well I can't believe how hard it is to get an answer I'm probably buying this tomorrow, and I have no idea what to check for, to see if this is a worthwhile buy.

"Omg this dude is whack" is not very helpful dammit
#34
Van
Quote by Jay3213
The reason why I need a stack rather than a combo is because my band likes to have things organised lol... kinda dumb i know, but we want the amps to be the same height.

How's that 311.

And ts, listen to 311's advice.
Guitars: Fender FSR Standard Strat, Squire Affinity Strat, Epiphone Nighthawk
Amps: Vox AC15C1, Roland Cube 15x, Peavey KB-1
Pedals: Digitech RP355, HD500, Joyo AC-Tone, EHX Soul Food
Last edited by kutless999 at Aug 14, 2011,
#35
Ts, you've pretty much made up your own mind. Go for it, what happens afterwards is your fault not ours. I personally think that you're going to be greatly disappointed because the tone you're expecting is so different than the tone youre going to hear when you plug in. Tell us how it goes.
Better, Faster, Stronger

Kansas City Chiefs

Kansas State Wildcats
Quote by airbrendie
Hey guys in the last 3 weeks I ****ed all the girls in this picture, what do you think?

#37
Should I put it in my sig?

Is it better than the spider quote?
Guitars: Fender FSR Standard Strat, Squire Affinity Strat, Epiphone Nighthawk
Amps: Vox AC15C1, Roland Cube 15x, Peavey KB-1
Pedals: Digitech RP355, HD500, Joyo AC-Tone, EHX Soul Food
Last edited by kutless999 at Aug 14, 2011,
#38
Quote by Sparrisen
Well I can't believe how hard it is to get an answer I'm probably buying this tomorrow, and I have no idea what to check for, to see if this is a worthwhile buy.

"Omg this dude is whack" is not very helpful dammit


umm.. dude how can we take your seriously. think about it. your post has been "i live in my car but want top of the line equipment" now you're buying a half stack but please tell me where the hell would you put it , you live in your car.

your whole i can't be bothered with details thing is just stupid. why should we be expected to do all the work, how fvcking lazy are you?
#39
but what if you want to change genres?

BTW, here are some more rigs for you to consider

http://www.uberproaudio.com/who-plays-what
HILT!

Where's Waldo?

#40
I can't believe this thread actually makes people angry, that's not my intent. I'm sorry if that's the case.

For where I'll play and storage, just imagine yourself in my position, and I'm sure you'll come up with the same solutions that I have for those problems, and you'll see it's no impossibility.

EDIT: For if I want to change generes; I don't know what to say to that Are you suggesting that I buy a more flexible amp?
In general, with a good amp like this, I could just kit it with effect pedals if I want a change in sounds, no?
Last edited by Sparrisen at Aug 15, 2011,
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