#1
Hey Music Theorists! I decided to be adventurous and harmonize the C lydian b7 scale (C, D, E, F#, G, A, Bb, C) in 3rds all the way up to the 13th.
HOWEVER, although I'm pretty confident in my accuracy in harmonizing and chord naming, I may have made one or two blunders here and there - the chords become quite monstrous. 'Twould be much appreciated if a fellow could look over my work and see if it is correct before I use it for...something or the other.

Thanks work is below:

#2
Everything looks good
Makes me want to jam or write something in this mode after analyzing it



Quote by Gunpowder
Thrashturbating? Most metal of all ways to pleasure oneself.
#3
Example 19 Chord 7: the last chord should be Bbmaj9(#5) (use the triangle symbol if you wish)

Example 27 Chord 1: C9(#11)

Example 27 Chord 4: This is "theoretically" correct, but does not really reflect the chords function. As you have seen, you have included an flattened fourth, which is diatonic to the scale of G melodic minor, the parent scale, but is also enharmonic to a major third, in which case, because you have a both a major third and minor third in the same chord, your minor third ceases to function as a minor third, and functions as a #9 in a dominant sound. What you have done is correct as far as naming the chords purely based on the stacked third formula, but does not really reflect the function of the chords, I would recommend doing it both ways.

Example 27 Chord 7: Again, probably just a typo on your part, but this chord would be correctly named Bbmaj7(#5#11) (or using the triangle symbol)

Example 35 Chord 1: This should be named C13(#11) (there is no b9th in the chord, the 9th is D, which is a natural 9th)

Example 35 Chord 2: You still need to include the 11th extension in the name, so D11(b13)

Example 35 Chord 3: The C note in relation to an E is a b13. So, you would name that chord E-11(b5b13)

Example 35 Chord 4: The same thing previously discussed applies, this chord would function as a dominant chord, which explains all of your chromatic extensions

Example 35 Chord 7: Again, you still need to clarify that the Bb chord has a major third and seventh (either by use of "maj" or the triangle symbol) So, Bbmaj13(#5#11)

Good job though!
#4
Quote by jesse music
<copious amount of corrections lol>


Awesome! Thanks for the help - I think a lot of it was negligence on my part; I haven't done this sort of thing in little bit so I guess I'm a tad out of practice. It's amazing how quickly a person can lose it!

Anyway, thanks again!
#5
Apologies for the double post, but I just quickly read through your answers and replied on the way out, but now that I'm back and back to "work" I have just one thing to query on you answer, Jesse.

This:
"Example 27 Chord 4: This is "theoretically" correct, but does not really reflect the chords function. As you have seen, you have included an flattened fourth, which is diatonic to the scale of G melodic minor, the parent scale, but is also enharmonic to a major third, in which case, because you have a both a major third and minor third in the same chord, your minor third ceases to function as a minor third, and functions as a #9 in a dominant sound. What you have done is correct as far as naming the chords purely based on the stacked third formula, but does not really reflect the function of the chords, I would recommend doing it both ways."

^The whole thing! I've read through this a number of times and tried to grasp what you're saying, but I'm still like "HUH?!" Can you please rephrase this and show me how/what to name this monstrous chord?
Thanks!
#6
Quote by UnmagicMushroom
Hey Music Theorists! I decided to be adventurous and harmonize the C lydian b7 scale (C, D, E, F#, G, A, Bb, C) in 3rds all the way up to the 13th.
HOWEVER, although I'm pretty confident in my accuracy in harmonizing and chord naming, I may have made one or two blunders here and there - the chords become quite monstrous. 'Twould be much appreciated if a fellow could look over my work and see if it is correct before I use it for...something or the other.

Thanks work is below:



So how would you apply something like this in a musical setting?
shred is gaudy music
#7
Quote by UnmagicMushroom
Apologies for the double post, but I just quickly read through your answers and replied on the way out, but now that I'm back and back to "work" I have just one thing to query on you answer, Jesse.

This:
"Example 27 Chord 4: This is "theoretically" correct, but does not really reflect the chords function. As you have seen, you have included an flattened fourth, which is diatonic to the scale of G melodic minor, the parent scale, but is also enharmonic to a major third, in which case, because you have a both a major third and minor third in the same chord, your minor third ceases to function as a minor third, and functions as a #9 in a dominant sound. What you have done is correct as far as naming the chords purely based on the stacked third formula, but does not really reflect the function of the chords, I would recommend doing it both ways."

^The whole thing! I've read through this a number of times and tried to grasp what you're saying, but I'm still like "HUH?!" Can you please rephrase this and show me how/what to name this monstrous chord?
Thanks!

What he's saying is that you've got a major third and a minor third within the chord. The b11 is really just a major 3rd, and the minor 3rd is of course A. Since you've got both, the major 3rd takes precedence over the minor third, meaning you have to assume the chord is major and then find a way to express the minor third as an extension, instead of the other way around. I'm bad when it comes to writing copious extensions, but it'll probably come out as F#7(b5b9#9) or something of the sort.
#8
Quote by Glen'sHeroicAct
What he's saying is that you've got a major third and a minor third within the chord. The b11 is really just a major 3rd, and the minor 3rd is of course A. Since you've got both, the major 3rd takes precedence over the minor third, meaning you have to assume the chord is major and then find a way to express the minor third as an extension, instead of the other way around. I'm bad when it comes to writing copious extensions, but it'll probably come out as F#7(b5b9#9) or something of the sort.


Okay, so I understand that the A is the minor third and Bb is the b11, alternatively the major 3rd - it's just an octave higher...sorted.

I just don't understand why the Bb will take precedence over the A because the A is the 3rd which, and the 3rd determines the major or minor quality of the chord, not so? Although I agree that the Bb is a major 3rd, it's technically not the major 3rd. In the context of the chord the Bb is the b11 and the A is the minor 3rd...therefore shouldn't the chord be expressed as a minor chord with a major extension to it and not the other way around?

Or does this the b11 taking precedence have to do with this: if we were to strip down the chord to triad form (F#, A and C) it's a diminished chord, neither major nor minor. So therefore, since the b11 is an octave higher version of the major 3rd, the b11 acts as the major 3rd thus giving it a more major quality. ??

(I really want to understand this)
#9
Quote by UnmagicMushroom
Okay, so I understand that the A is the minor third and Bb is the b11, alternatively the major 3rd - it's just an octave higher...sorted.

I just don't understand why the Bb will take precedence over the A because the A is the 3rd which, and the 3rd determines the major or minor quality of the chord, not so? Although I agree that the Bb is a major 3rd, it's technically not the major 3rd. In the context of the chord the Bb is the b11 and the A is the minor 3rd...therefore shouldn't the chord be expressed as a minor chord with a major extension to it and not the other way around?

Or does this the b11 taking precedence have to do with this: if we were to strip down the chord to triad form (F#, A and C) it's a diminished chord, neither major nor minor. So therefore, since the b11 is an octave higher version of the major 3rd, the b11 acts as the major 3rd thus giving it a more major quality. ??

(I really want to understand this)

There's no such thing as a b11 to my knowledge, as that note is always defined as a major 3rd. Now you may want to think of it as a b11 because it's voiced an octave higher than your root, but octaves have no part in how you define a chord's function. Thus, you simply take all the notes that are in the chord and work out what it is from there. Since you have an A and a Bb, you have to decide whether the chord is major or minor. There's never a minor chord with a major 3rd as an extension, but there are major chords with a #9 as an extension (which is equal to your minor 3rd). Thus, when you have a major and minor 3rd in a chord, you can assume it's a major chord with a #9 in it. Forget about where it is on the staff and how high above the root it is. If there's a major 3rd, your chord is major. If there happens to also be a minor third in there, it's not a minor 3rd - it's a #9. Go back and voice your chord accordingly.
#10
Quote by GuitarMunky
So how would you apply something like this in a musical setting?


+1
#11
Quote by Glen'sHeroicAct
There's no such thing as a b11 to my knowledge, as that note is always defined as a major 3rd. Now you may want to think of it as a b11 because it's voiced an octave higher than your root, but octaves have no part in how you define a chord's function. Thus, you simply take all the notes that are in the chord and work out what it is from there. Since you have an A and a Bb, you have to decide whether the chord is major or minor. There's never a minor chord with a major 3rd as an extension, but there are major chords with a #9 as an extension (which is equal to your minor 3rd). Thus, when you have a major and minor 3rd in a chord, you can assume it's a major chord with a #9 in it. Forget about where it is on the staff and how high above the root it is. If there's a major 3rd, your chord is major. If there happens to also be a minor third in there, it's not a minor 3rd - it's a #9. Go back and voice your chord accordingly.


OKAY!!! I understand now! Thank you for your explanations!

One last thing: When you say, "Go back and voice your chord accordingly." do you mean that I...
1) must alter my voicings on the stave?
2) leave the way it's written on the stave as is and indicate what is happening in my chord name?
3) both?
#12
Glen'sHeroicAct is spot on! One thing I would add, also learning the function of the modes in the melodic minor scale would make this a lot clearer. You're dealing with C Lydian Dominant, which has a parent sale of G Melodic Minor. Now the seventh mode of the melodic minor is known as the altered scale, this is because it gives you all your altered notes over a dominant chord (b9 #9 b5 #5) and in that description, the way to name your chord also becomes clear. In example 35 of the F# chord, it would contain all the altered extensions, thus be namd F#7b9#9b5#5 (granted, you'll probably never see a chord like that in anything that's not an exercise) and a far better, shorter name to reflect the chords function would be F#7alt (altered).

I will just say again, in my opinion you've done the right thing with the F# chords in this context (stacking them in thirds) my point was that what you've done does not reflect the function.

The stacking thirds approach works fine for all chords in the melodic minor/lydian dominant scale apart from two.

In C Lydian, the F#7alt chord which we've already looked at, and the chord build off A.

A Bb C D E F# G, stacking thirds you would see this as some kind of minor7 chord, but if we stack it up to the ninth degree, we get: A C E G Bb. As you can see there, this can also be seen as a C7/A, if which you play that chord, sound like it functions more as a dominant chord, and less as something based off A. The function of this mode (the second mode of the melodic minor) is susb9, basically the same as a phrygian function, but with a natural 6th (that's the name of the scale, phyrygian natural 6th) So, if we were to create a sound that reflected the functio of this chord, I would choose the notes:

A D E G Bb, that's your basic susb9 chord.

Another thing, and this is a great way to look at the function of melodic minor chords, is to use a certain voicing that functions effectively as almost every chord from the melodic minor scale. A bit of background, the major scale, unlike the melodic minor scale, has an "avoid" note, the 4th, beacuse when held against the Imaj7 chord it sounds dissonant. Now, the melodic minor scale has no avoid tones, so because of the nature of this scale, we can use a four note voicing to imply most of the melodic minor chords. We'll work within G melodic minor, because that's what we've been doing so far.

This voicing, starts on the b3rd of the melodic minor scale (Bb) moves up a tri-tone (E) and than two perfect fourths (A) and (D)

So the voicing is Bb E A and D. The intervallic structure of this voicing is not overly important you can shift the notes around.

Now, lets take a look at the voicing in the context of G melodic minor

G, Bb E A D (this voicing gives us b3 6 9 and 5 over that chord, which sums up that chords function perfectly Gm6/9)

A, Bb E A D (this voicing gives us b9 5 1 4) Susb9, which again, expresses the chords function perfectly

Bb, Bb E A D (this voicing gives us 1 #11 7 3) which gives us a Maj7#11 chord, which does express the chords function

C, Bb E A D (b7 3 13 9) this chord, although no #11 is contained this voicing will still work for the chord

D, Bb E A D (this chord is the only one that this voicing does not work with)

E, Bb E A D (this voicing reflects some kind of minor7b5 structure, with the third moved to the fourth, 1 4 b5 b7)

F#, Bb E A D (this voicing gives us an altered chord, 1 3 b7 #9 #5)
Last edited by jesse music at Aug 14, 2011,