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MadClownDisease
Just a Turing Machine.
Join date: Apr 2006
982 IQ
#361
Quote by SlackerBabbath
But surely if you consider those who's genes are being wiped out of general population to be 'stupid', then that's a good thing... right?

I think that's what he was saying.
fail
Custom Mandy Moore avatar
Join date: Jan 2008
1,428 IQ
#362
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Your entire argument is circular, I've decided. And circular arguments are bad.


Okay. Tell me how?

Quote by blake1221
I think my favorite part about this is fail using universal dismissal as further proof that she's right.


Tell me why it's your favorite

Quote by WCPhils
Am I reading this wrong or is this the argument?

Brad: "It's selfish to deprive them of the good things in life by not being born"

Fail: "They are not born so they are being deprived of nothing"

*Fail in other posts*

Fail: "By not having children you take away their potential suffering"


So you can take away suffering by not having children but not pleasures?

lol wut



So, none of you read the asymmetry argument several pages ago? Alright then.

(1) The presence of pain is bad.
(2) The presence of pleasure is good.
(3) The absence of pain is good, even if that good is not enjoyed by anyone.
(4) The absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody for whom this absence is a deprivation.

The suffering argument hinges on a couple things. One, we have a moral obligation to prevent suffering. Two, birth leads to suffering. Birth also leads to pleasure. But there is no moral obligation to cause pleasure. If that were true, everyone in the world would be morally obligated to have as many babies as possible to maximize the amount of pleasure in the world. I don't think any of us would argue that. So either we do not have a moral obligation to prevent suffering, or birth does not lead to suffering. But birth leads to everything that humans experience, suffering included. It would be avoided entirely if we did not exist.

Quote by element4433
Lol who says nature didn't design us to be happy?


Evolutionarily speaking, we're just meant to survive. Happiness is derived from how well we do this. Otherwise, happiness is not necessary. If it serves no function then it has no value.

Quote by blake1221
Fail is just living up to her username all over the place in this thread.


A little disappointed no one said it sooner.

Quote by WhiskeyFace
Hermit. He's old so all his loved ones have passed on. Bullet to the back of the head, instadeath.



It'd be wrong to kill him because he didn't consent to being killed. Antinatalism is about voluntarily not starting new lives.

And his death would still cause suffering to others. People read about it in the papers, they become fearful, and society has to spend resources on policing.

Quote by SlackerBabbath
But surely if you consider those who's genes are being wiped out of general population to be 'stupid', then that's a good thing... right?


I think he doesn't know antinatalism is learned and not hereditary. Unless he's joking, in which case it's the worst, most predictable joke to make in response to the subject
Quote by Ian_the_fox
You're not girly enough of a boy for me, and you're not man enough to take the top. So like, sorry bitch but you ain't mine! Sorry.
lolmnt
Earth of the Butt
Join date: Sep 2006
4,159 IQ
#363
Yo I'd argue that the quest to be happy is what keeps us surviving. Without feeling dat pleasure and joy we wouldn't have a reason to survive.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
ProphetToJables
Tight Tight Tight
Join date: Dec 2008
1,529 IQ
#364
I would rather regret being born than never being born at all. This is still a completely stupid point of view. "morally obligated to prevent suffering", yet not morally obligated toc arry on your own race? Hmm.
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fail
Custom Mandy Moore avatar
Join date: Jan 2008
1,428 IQ
#365
Quote by element4433
Yo I'd argue that the quest to be happy is what keeps us surviving. Without feeling dat pleasure and joy we wouldn't have a reason to survive.


Well, that's kinda what I'm saying. It's a motivational tool. But the entire concept of happiness has changed so much throughout history that our current idea of it is pretty recent. We can't really talk about it without defining it in some way.

It's also said that depression is an adaptation that brings several advantages, which would point to life being more "about" survival than happiness.

Quote by ProphetToJables
I would rather regret being born than never being born at all. This is still a completely stupid point of view. "morally obligated to prevent suffering", yet not morally obligated toc arry on your own race? Hmm.


If you had never been born at all, you wouldn't care.

Yes, why would we be morally obligated to carry on our own race?
Quote by Ian_the_fox
You're not girly enough of a boy for me, and you're not man enough to take the top. So like, sorry bitch but you ain't mine! Sorry.
willT08
Banned
Join date: Jul 2009
2,923 IQ
#366
Quote by fail

It's also said that depression is an adaptation that brings several advantages, which would point to life being more "about" survival than happiness.

Name two.
Mister.Y
something something
Join date: Mar 2005
788 IQ
#367
Quote by willT08
Name two.


1. More alert to negative stimuli/threats (cognitive bias).
2. Depressive realism.

(though they are somewhat related)
And what is more, there's been a bloody purple nose and some bloody purple clothes that were messing up the lobby floor. It's just apartment house rules so all you 'partment fools remember : one man's ceiling is another man's floor.
Last edited by Mister.Y at Jan 30, 2013,
bradulator
normcore
Join date: Jul 2007
2,448 IQ
#368
Quote by fail
It's also said that depression is an adaptation that brings several advantages, which would point to life being more "about" survival than happiness.


Who in their right mind says that?
WCPhils
UnBanned
Join date: Sep 2010
731 IQ
#369
Quote by bradulator
Who in their right mind says that?

Depressed people
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
MadClownDisease
Just a Turing Machine.
Join date: Apr 2006
982 IQ
#371
Quote by fail
So, none of you read the asymmetry argument several pages ago? Alright then.

(1) The presence of pain is bad.
(2) The presence of pleasure is good.
(3) The absence of pain is good, even if that good is not enjoyed by anyone.
(4) The absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody for whom this absence is a deprivation.

The suffering argument hinges on a couple things. One, we have a moral obligation to prevent suffering. Two, birth leads to suffering. Birth also leads to pleasure. But there is no moral obligation to cause pleasure. If that were true, everyone in the world would be morally obligated to have as many babies as possible to maximize the amount of pleasure in the world. I don't think any of us would argue that. So either we do not have a moral obligation to prevent suffering, or birth does not lead to suffering. But birth leads to everything that humans experience, suffering included. It would be avoided entirely if we did not exist.

I don't really understand on what basis you are justifying this asymmetry though. We want to maximise welfare in not bringing about suffering, and yet this moral obligation somehow just gets cut off when the state of being moves into the positive realm?

Admittedly though I have not seen your argument you say you had a view pages ago, do you have a post no. of it?

Quote by ProphetToJables
I would rather regret being born than never being born at all. This is still a completely stupid point of view. "morally obligated to prevent suffering", yet not morally obligated toc arry on your own race? Hmm.

You wouldn't be around to regret not being born at all. You'd rather regret being born because you would be unable to regret the other...


And I really don't see how there's any contradiction or problem with morality being about well being of actual people rather a simple biological directive to reproduce. I find it more bizarre if carrying on your own race was somehow a moral imperative independent of anyone's welfare.
bradulator
normcore
Join date: Jul 2007
2,448 IQ
#372
What does that have to do with thinking that life is awful suffering that we should distance our species from?
fail
Custom Mandy Moore avatar
Join date: Jan 2008
1,428 IQ
#373
Quote by MadClownDisease
I don't really understand on what basis you are justifying this asymmetry though. We want to maximise welfare in not bringing about suffering, and yet this moral obligation somehow just gets cut off when the state of being moves into the positive realm?

Admittedly though I have not seen your argument you say you had a view pages ago, do you have a post no. of it?


Those four premises are just the bones of the asymmetry argument. I that explains it more

Because the positive necessarily accompanies the negative, we can't bring the positive on its own. It would be impossible to cause pleasure without causing pain, in terms of bringing new life into existence. And like I said, if we would focus on bringing about the positive rather than merely avoiding the negative, why would we not be obligated to have as many babies as possible?

Quote by bradulator
What does that have to do with thinking that life is awful suffering that we should distance our species from?


It has to do with life being a continual struggle at its most basic. We should avoid that instead of cause it.
Quote by Ian_the_fox
You're not girly enough of a boy for me, and you're not man enough to take the top. So like, sorry bitch but you ain't mine! Sorry.
WhiskeyFace
:^)
Join date: Dec 2008
1,131 IQ
#374
Quote by fail
It'd be wrong to kill him because he didn't consent to being killed. Antinatalism is about voluntarily not starting new lives.

And his death would still cause suffering to others. People read about it in the papers, they become fearful, and society has to spend resources on policing.

Second part of this is evasive and irrelevant and you know it, so I'm going to ignore that.

As for the first part, I don't why his consent is relevant because in this whole thread you've been basing your ethics on a principle of suffering, but now all of sudden consent matters. I find these two conflicting.
lolmnt
Earth of the Butt
Join date: Sep 2006
4,159 IQ
#375
The more this concept is explained and the more I find out about it the dumber it gets.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
WCPhils
UnBanned
Join date: Sep 2010
731 IQ
#376
I think antinatalism has some




failed logic


___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
Last edited by WCPhils at Mar 31, 2013,
Hydra150
cutebutt mcsexyface
Join date: Nov 2006
1,793 IQ
#378
Was that really worth it now, Phils?
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
WCPhils
UnBanned
Join date: Sep 2010
731 IQ
#379
It just came to me

I couldn't resist
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
Hydra150
cutebutt mcsexyface
Join date: Nov 2006
1,793 IQ
#380
WCFails
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
T00DEEPBLUE
Boba FRETT
Join date: Oct 2010
2,245 IQ
#383
Thanks, man. I really needed this thread to come back into my life.
Regarding the furry fandom from the man himself:
Quote by Axelfox
Please understand how little we as a community care
bradulator
normcore
Join date: Jul 2007
2,448 IQ
#384
If you had never been born then you never would've seen this thread #ifonly
SexyLikeAPig
Don't judge us fat girls
Join date: Jan 2011
59 IQ
#385
I say Phils, that joke was well conceived.
RIP Adam
Hydra150
cutebutt mcsexyface
Join date: Nov 2006
1,793 IQ
#386
It should have been aborted.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
SexyLikeAPig
Don't judge us fat girls
Join date: Jan 2011
59 IQ
#387
No, I disagree, you see that joke allowed this ahem, er... enlightening thread, to be re-born.
RIP Adam
jaybsp
Registered User
Join date: May 2009
149 IQ
#388
I don't want kids but I don't think it's morally wrong to have them. I don't think it's wise to have children, there are too many as it is, this argument only really works if you accept that the standard form of life is suffering which isn't the case, I think it is a very large part of life despite it not being the standard thing.