Page 3 of 10
#82
Quote by LordBishek
I do not see how proposition A logically leads to proposition B.

We became the apex predator on earth and now we destroy everything everywhere we go. Our methods of living are not sustainable.
Quote by MadClownDisease
Why do you think humans are "evolutionarily perfect"?

I don't. I shouldn't have said it. I meant that we've basically come as far as evolution will take us. Our environment carved and molded us into what we are today, and today we change our environment to suit our needs.

Quote by Jackal58
If an individual has come to such an extreme belief I have no problem with them taking the first step. It is hypocritical to propose the extinction of our species and not killing yourself. You can argue it any way you like to but all of your arguments contain a logical fallacy that run counter to the premise of the philosophy.

Your arguments are illogical. There's nothing hypocritical about thinking the world would be better off if you didn't have a kid and choosing not to commit suicide.

I don't want kids, and I think that the world would definitely be better off without humans, but I don't want to kill myself and I never will.

I'd like to reassert my stance here and remind everybody that, no I am not an antinatalist, even if I do think they make some good points.
#84
Quote by MadClownDisease
I think calling them hypocrites is pretty besides the point. Whether the people who suggest this idea do it or not doesn't change the idea itself.

If you want to argue against an idea you can't just say "well yeah you're not doing it!"


Of course it's not a legitimate attack on the idea but it's an interesting thought.

You know antinatalism isn't the same thing as extinctionism (a made up word as it exists in this context). It would be if the people who believed in the idea thought that the entire world should believe in it as well.

EDIT: so yeah that means ignore most of my previous arguments; a lot of the arguments in this thread are based on a misunderstanding of what anti-natalism means or they're just not used to the idea of people believing in something without thinking everyone else should as well.
Last edited by spitonastranger at Aug 20, 2011,
#85
Quote by LordBishek
Why not?


i would, personally, say living in misery is marginally less miserable than dying in it. got that off house.

what would i do without that man?
Click here to hear my BOB DYLAN (Blowing in the Wind) out right now May 2k17
#86
Quote by LordBishek
Why not?

Because despite the state of the world, the human race in general, and the best efforts of my peers, I enjoy being alive.
#87
Quote by spitonastranger
Of course it's not a legitimate attack on the idea but it's an interesting thought.

You know antinatalism isn't the same thing as extinctionism (a made up word as it exists in this context). It would be if the people who believed in the idea thought that the entire world should believe in it as well.

Aye, I just think some people are taking it far too far.

Even were the theory to equate to "kill yourself", it's possible hold many many beliefs about what should be the case without being able to bring yourself to do so.
People can smoke whilst still believing it's bad for them, people can believe stealing is wrong whilst still being tempted now and again, people can believe cheating is wrong and still find themselves in a difficult situation, people can believe everyone should be equal and not give all their belongings away...

The world is full of human hypocrisy, it doesn't mean a thing for the theory itself.

Quote by Butt Rayge
I don't. I shouldn't have said it. I meant that we've basically come as far as evolution will take us. Our environment carved and molded us into what we are today, and today we change our environment to suit our needs.

I agree we shape our environment a lot, but their is still a lot that is beyond our control we can still adapt to, and even though we change our environment a lot, it's not always towards making it more sustainable or survivable for us.
Even if we could indeed control all limiting factors on life, we could still evolve in terms of socially selective breeding. People more socially desirable may procreate more and so we "evolve", simplistically speaking.

We do change our environment massively, but nothing ever stops evolving. We will constantly adapt and change.
#88
Quote by Butt Rayge
Because despite the state of the world, the human race in general, and the best efforts of my peers, I enjoy being alive.

Do you think the world would be better off without you? Why?
#89
Quote by MadClownDisease


I agree we shape our environment a lot, but their is still a lot that is beyond our control we can still adapt to, and even though we change our environment a lot, it's not always towards making it more sustainable or survivable for us.
Even if we could indeed control all limiting factors on life, we could still evolve in terms of socially selective breeding. People more socially desirable may procreate more and so we "evolve", simplistically speaking.

We do change our environment massively, but nothing ever stops evolving. We will constantly adapt and change.


That sounds a lot like eugenics. I don't if that's what you meant it to sound like, but it did
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#90
Quote by spitonastranger
At this point in our evolution the decision is almost always motivated by selfish reasons but you're not implying it's inherently selfish are you?


How is it almost always motivated by selfish reasons?

Not having children is environmentally a good thing. It gives you more spare money which you could donate or use for other benevolent purposes and you are less likely to drain public resources or contribute to the burgeoning overpopulation we all suffer. It is selfish to have children. That doesn't mean people shouldn't. It was selfish of me to eat the last doughnut but I still did it.
#91
Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
How is it almost always motivated by selfish reasons?

Not having children is environmentally a good thing. It gives you more spare money which you could donate or use for other benevolent purposes and you are less likely to drain public resources or contribute to the burgeoning overpopulation we all suffer. It is selfish to have children. That doesn't mean people shouldn't. It was selfish of me to eat the last doughnut but I still did it.


I just wanted to avoid making a definitive statement because there are exceptions to almost everything. Even to the statement i just made. Which again is why i qualified it with an 'almost'

I think you knew i was agreeing with you and you were just looking for an argument
#92
I know someone like this, doesn't have kids of his own but is like an adoptive father to an aboriginal family, they live on their reserve or whatever in another state but he helps support them.

I talked to him about it and he said he has no desire for kids of his own, not sure if he actually knows and lives by this sort of philosophy, I might have to ask him when I see him next.

Anyways, I'm comfortable in thinking that this sort of idea doesn't connect with me, I'm going to have babies, if they're boys than they'll have a football fused to their body...they're going to make me rich!
yo.

I BELIEVE
#93
Quote by WCPhils
That sounds a lot like eugenics. I don't if that's what you meant it to sound like, but it did

Not at all. I mean people obviously fancy attractive people, and what is attractive is at least to some extent often socially dictated. The same way people used to find pale people attractive, tans are nowadays seen as attractive.

Obviously not everyone agrees on these things, but some attributes are generally found more socially desirable than others.

This isn't conscious selective breeding, it is simply people going for people they find attractive, which is often defined by the society.
#96
I don't think it necessary to end the human race, but one of the reasons I don't want kids is because it seems so easy to fuck them up no matter how hard you try not to. I don't want to be responsible for someone else's misery.
Quote by Ian_the_fox
You're not girly enough of a boy for me, and you're not man enough to take the top. So like, sorry bitch but you ain't mine! Sorry.
#97
(Not) sorry to bump this thread, but the topic is still very interesting to me and one that's resurfaced in my head lately.

I'm trying to think of a way to justify having kids. I can't get over the fact that choosing to create new life creates a ton of opportunities for suffering. Part of this stems from my feelings on many young couples around me, including my teenage ****ing brother, deciding to have kids right now. In my eyes it's simply cruel to bring a human being into existence in those circumstances -- and by those circumstances I mean young, uneducated, often moronic people with very bad ideas about raising children and life in general. It really bothers me that people have this sense of entitlement to children.

A few questions:

1. What do people hope to accomplish by having children that isn't purely selfish?
2. Is the suffering worth it and how?
3. What qualifies somebody to have kids?
Quote by Ian_the_fox
You're not girly enough of a boy for me, and you're not man enough to take the top. So like, sorry bitch but you ain't mine! Sorry.
#98
Whoah, I remember this thread. Vaguely.
Quote by LordBishek
Do you think the world would be better off without you? Why?

Whether I live or die is inconsequential. Of course, I will die and the world wont be any better or worse for it.
#99
This thread kind of makes me angry because everyone jumped and called this dumb without even thinking about it for a few minutes.

There are lots of points I agree with. If humans stopped making babies, maybe they'd start adopting more. Obviously I don't mean to say that I think the human race should go extinct, but calling procreation a selfish act is something I'm finding hard to argue against.

As for humans ceasing to exist, that'd be TERRIBLE....for humans, for everything else there will only be joy galore.
#100
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
This thread kind of makes me angry because everyone jumped and called this dumb without even thinking about it for a few minutes.

There are lots of points I agree with. If humans stopped making babies, maybe they'd start adopting more. Obviously I don't mean to say that I think the human race should go extinct, but calling procreation a selfish act is something I'm finding hard to argue against.

As for humans ceasing to exist, that'd be TERRIBLE....for humans, for everything else there will only be joy galore.

+1. I didn't understand why it was such a dumb idea in the first pages.
Quote by Sliide90027
But as a bigoted lemming, you have so cry an Alinslyite slur revealing you lack of reason and sense.


Quote by MusicLord16
BOB 1. ur 20 and two u like evil things and idk if u worship the devil
#101
It sounds like these antinatalists' problem is that they can't get laid.
#102
Quote by fail
(Not) sorry to bump this thread, but the topic is still very interesting to me and one that's resurfaced in my head lately.

I'm trying to think of a way to justify having kids. I can't get over the fact that choosing to create new life creates a ton of opportunities for suffering. Part of this stems from my feelings on many young couples around me, including my teenage ****ing brother, deciding to have kids right now. In my eyes it's simply cruel to bring a human being into existence in those circumstances -- and by those circumstances I mean young, uneducated, often moronic people with very bad ideas about raising children and life in general. It really bothers me that people have this sense of entitlement to children.

A few questions:

1. What do people hope to accomplish by having children that isn't purely selfish?
2. Is the suffering worth it and how?
3. What qualifies somebody to have kids?

1. So what if it's selfish? Arguably everything we do is selfish
2. You're assuming that life is full of suffering and nothing else. If you were to do that with goodness then the argument would be that we are all obligated to make children
3. The will, fundamentally. But something can be said to people who want to have kids who won't be able to raise it in good conditions.
#103
I'm not anti whatever but I don't want children for a few reasons.
The major factor being my families history of mental illness and having to live it daily, I couldn't bring a child into the world knowing full well they're likely to suffer the same fate.
Putting s someone else through it would be a cruel joke.

/whinging bitch.
Fuck that nazi guy.
#104
Quote by WhiskeyFace
1. So what if it's selfish? Arguably everything we do is selfish
2. You're assuming that life is full of suffering and nothing else. If you were to do that with goodness then the argument would be that we are all obligated to make children
3. The will, fundamentally. But something can be said to people who want to have kids who won't be able to raise it in good conditions.


1. Well yeah, but when it's at the expense of someone else like that it's gone too far. Shouldn't we seek to remedy the selfish behaviors that harm others?
2. No, I'm saying is the other stuff worth the suffering? You could say that the good in the world is just an antidote to the suffering, a response to a problem that isn't necessary. So why create the suffering in the first place?
3. What do you mean by the will here exactly?
Quote by Ian_the_fox
You're not girly enough of a boy for me, and you're not man enough to take the top. So like, sorry bitch but you ain't mine! Sorry.
#105
Quote by G.Krizzel
Yeah, that's why having sex feels so shitty...


Who the **** are you.
BEWARE THE BANANA ARMY.

I SAY, I SAY, BEWARE THE BANANA ARMY.

They say when they finally attack, all the impostors will peel themselves. In order to tell if you have been assimilated, check for a zipper somewhere near your pelvis.


#106
I would have said having children is an entirely generous act.
not going viral


Hot E-Cousin of rjaylaf

Non Evil E-Twin of stealstrings

E-NEMESIS of deathdrummer
#108
Quote by Avedas
Fuckin' social sciences.

Philosophy is not a social science, mate. It's a combination of logic, drugs and art.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#109
Quote by Neo Evil11
Philosophy is not a social science, mate. It's a combination of logic, drugs and art.


Nahh, psychology is a fan-fiction about science.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#110
u can get thru nething if u try pls dont kil urself i had a cuson hu killt himself nd it ws rly sad so pls dont repet his mistake they're is so much 2 liv 4 in this lyf so pls dont kil ursilf that wood b very SAD
Check out my band Disturbed
#111
Quote by StewieSwan
u can get thru nething if u try pls dont kil urself i had a cuson hu killt himself nd it ws rly sad so pls dont repet his mistake they're is so much 2 liv 4 in this lyf so pls dont kil ursilf that wood b very SAD


i wons had a frend that kilt hislf becuz hs gurlfrend sed she did'nt luv him nemore so he jmpt in frunt of a trayn nd it hit him nd he dyed nd thn she wlkt up 2 his bodee and wispt in his eer i ment 2 say i do'nt luv u nemore i reely reely luv u now nd then she cryt
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#112
The problem is that this is only looking at human life from one perspective. If human life doesn't exist surely there cannot be any human suffering, but there cannot be any happiness either. It's also trying to elevate humans status above that of other animals, as a large portion of us have it a lot "easier" than just about every other species on the planet. If you are a proponent of antinatalism in humans you have to be an advocate of non-existence across all species, because all species experience suffering and are brought into the world without prior consent.

Obviously one cannot consent to be born because prior to existence you are not a thing. If anything people should exercise more prudence in whether or not they have the resources to raise a children in a "proper" environment. This is a moral judgment we make, and not an obligation, anyone can feel free to do whatever they want.

Ultimately it boils down to the question of whether existence or non-existence is superior, which is not something we can answer due to our cognitive biases of how we perceive the world and our instincts to avoid death and reproduce.
#113
Quote by Todd Hart
Nahh, psychology is a fan-fiction about science.

Psychology is a social science.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#115
Quote by JackWhiteIsButts
The problem is that this is only looking at human life from one perspective. If human life doesn't exist surely there cannot be any human suffering, but there cannot be any happiness either. It's also trying to elevate humans status above that of other animals, as a large portion of us have it a lot "easier" than just about every other species on the planet. If you are a proponent of antinatalism in humans you have to be an advocate of non-existence across all species, because all species experience suffering and are brought into the world without prior consent.

Obviously one cannot consent to be born because prior to existence you are not a thing. If anything people should exercise more prudence in whether or not they have the resources to raise a children in a "proper" environment. This is a moral judgment we make, and not an obligation, anyone can feel free to do whatever they want.

Ultimately it boils down to the question of whether existence or non-existence is superior, which is not something we can answer due to our cognitive biases of how we perceive the world and our instincts to avoid death and reproduce.


This is probably the most reasonable post in the thread. Congrats
#116
Quote by fail
1. Well yeah, but when it's at the expense of someone else like that it's gone too far. Shouldn't we seek to remedy the selfish behaviors that harm others?
2. No, I'm saying is the other stuff worth the suffering? You could say that the good in the world is just an antidote to the suffering, a response to a problem that isn't necessary. So why create the suffering in the first place?
3. What do you mean by the will here exactly?

It sounds like you're still assuming that the default state is to suffer. Before someone is born you don't know what their life is going to be like so the default state would be nothing, so you have the choice. They don't have a say in the matter because they don't exist, yet.
#117
Quote by RedDeath9
This is probably the most reasonable post in the thread. Congrats

Thanks, I was making it up as I went along. I'm glad it came out coherent.
#119
i agree that logically, there is absolutely no reason or value in procreating. but i also think that always being logical tends to be boring.
Quote by archerygenious
Jesus Christ since when is the Pit a ****ing courtroom...

Like melodic, black, death, symphonic, and/or avant-garde metal? Want to collaborate? Message me!
#120
Quote by vIsIbleNoIsE
i agree that logically, there is absolutely no reason or value in procreating. but i also think that always being logical tends to be boring.


Yeah, procreating has no value except, of course, being the ONLY REAL QUANTIFIABLE PURPOSE OF LIFE.

But other than that minor detail, worthless.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.